The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD

[Werthead]

Other thoughts:

Is the Sun Lance being different to the Heron Spear significant? I have a head time believing that, not once in centuries, did any Nonman or Seswatha or Celmomas try to use the Heron Spear to laser the Ark. Given that the Sun Lance blasted one of the Horns down and the Heron Spear didn't, does that mean that the Sun Lance is more powerful? Or just different? Would firing this thing at the No-God be a really bad idea?

Are the Progenitors us? The description of a civilisation that used to worship gods but gave up religion to worship the Tekne instead sure as hell sounds like it could be. That would make the Inchoroi our descendants. It might also make Earwa Earth in some distant future: the Inchoroi actually returned home after unspeakable ages in the void rather than finding a new world to destroy, but they just forgot about it (Aurang notes he can no longer remember anything about his origin or his homeworld).

Cet'ingira says that 8,000 years have passed since he entered the Golden Court the first time (after the twenty-year Cleansing of the Ark). Should we take that as gospel or could that be wrong due to Cet'ingira's batshit insanity?

The Ark used to be alive and used to have some kind of central intelligence/AI that died after Arkfall.

The Carapace is an extrusion of the Ark itself. The Inchoroi don't seem to understand how it works. The Dunyain have teased out that it blocks souls and that there is a code hidden in the world. With each death the code glows brighter. At 144,000 souls left, the Ark can read the code and learn how to seal the World from the Outside forever. The Consult refer to the First Apocalypse as "System Initiation" and the Second as "System Resumption", describing the No-God almost like a computer programme.

The Golden Horns of the Ark are both the engines of the Incu-Holoinas but also form a massive power source: when the No-God is reborn the surviving Horn glows with power. Does the fact that there is now only one Horn have significance? Will the No-God be operational for a shorter timeframe than previously?

Do we think there is any significance to Nau-Cayuti and Celmomas now being spelt Nau-Kayuti and Kelmomas in the appendix? That seemed a bit random.

The appendix does confirm that the Inchoroi used nukes against the Nonmen during the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It sounds like they weren't very effective: the mountains could be not be destroyed by nukes alone and it sounds like the Nonmen were much more resistant to radiation than their Halaroi slaves, who basically died on the spot.

The creation myth of the Cunuroi sounds relevant: Imimorul fled the Heavens to seek succour in the World, hiding deep in the bowels of the earth and hoping that the Gods would not be able to follow or see him. Lonely, he cut off his shield arm and cut bones from it to craft the first Nonmen. He then founded Nihrimsul. His oldest son and daughter, Tsonos and Olissis, became lovers and, fearing his wrath at their incest, they murdered him and fled, eventually founding Siol as a refust. One of their younger sibilings inherited Nihrimsul. The other seven mansions derived from Siol, so the Siolan version of the story (in which Imimorul founded Siol and died naturally, with a jealous younger child founding Nihrimsul) became dominant even though it is (clearly, at this point) bullshit.

This explains why all the Nonmen are damned: the entire species is born from incest. It's also made clear (via the Inverse Fire) that their plan to find oblivion did not work, ever. So the question is was Imimorul a god or something else? He may have been one of the Hundred, splintered from the God-of-Gods, and was the aspect that loved the World so much he made his home on it, and tried to avoid Damnation for himself and his children.

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

 for 3. Everyone needs to re-read chapter 6 of TGO. then reread it again. Then reread it again. One hell of a lot is explained and revealed there.

 

Sorry - can you unspoiler your comments and whatnot? The formatting and spoiler stuff makes it hard to figure out what you wrote and what others did. 

[Gaston de Foix]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The creation myth of the Cunuroi sounds relevant: Imimorul fled the Heavens to seek succour in the World, hiding deep in the bowels of the earth and hoping that the Gods would not be able to follow or see him. Lonely, he cut off his shield arm and cut bones from it to craft the first Nonmen. He then founded Nihrimsul. His oldest son and daughter, Tsonos and Olissis, became lovers and, fearing his wrath at their incest, they murdered him and fled, eventually founding Siol as a refust. One of their younger sibilings inherited Nihrimsul. The other seven mansions derived from Siol, so the Siolan version of the story (in which Imimorul founded Siol and died naturally, with a jealous younger child founding Nihrimsul) became dominant even though it is (clearly, at this point) bullshit.

This explains why all the Nonmen are damned: the entire species is born from incest. It's also made clear (via the Inverse Fire) that their plan to find oblivion did not work, ever. So the question is was Imimorul a god or something else? He may have been one of the Hundred, splintered from the God-of-Gods, and was the aspect that loved the World so much he made his home on it, and tried to avoid Damnation for himself and his children.

I agree. Although on this Creation myth, it's not clear who Imimorul had sex with, in order to create Tsonos and Olissis (if indeed he did). My crackpot theory is that there is a connection between Onkis, Siol and the Head on a Pole. Onkis is the goddess of the darkness that comes before, and IMO the matriarch of the Nonmen. 

Separately, it is not clear how the theories of Kellhus' possession by Ajokli square with his professions of love for Esmenet. I don't buy the voice on the Circumfix being Ajokli. 

[jurble]

21 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Other thoughts:

Is the Sun Lance being different to the Heron Spear significant? I have a head time believing that, not once in centuries, did any Nonman or Seswatha or Celmomas try to use the Heron Spear to laser the Ark. Given that the Sun Lance blasted one of the Horns down and the Heron Spear didn't, does that mean that the Sun Lance is more powerful? Or just different? Would firing this thing at the No-God be a really bad idea?

The Sun Lance was tethered to a nuclear battery such as they made the juryrigged nuke out of.  The Heron Spear was never described as being tethered.

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Are the Progenitors us? The description of a civilisation that used to worship gods but gave up religion to worship the Tekne instead sure as hell sounds like it could be. That would make the Inchoroi our descendants. It might also make Earwa Earth in some distant future: the Inchoroi actually returned home after unspeakable ages in the void rather than finding a new world to destroy, but they just forgot about it (Aurang notes he can no longer remember anything about his origin or his homeworld).

 

 

Bakker said Nonmen are not descended from Men, which would be the only sensible conclusion if Earwa was Earth.  Future-Earth would explain the ring craters as well.  Bakker could have lied.

 

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The Carapace is an extrusion of the Ark itself. The Inchoroi don't seem to understand how it works. The Dunyain have teased out that it blocks souls and that there is a code hidden in the world. With each death the code glows brighter. At 144,000 souls left, the Ark can read the code and learn how to seal the World from the Outside forever. The Consult refer to the First Apocalypse as "System Initiation" and the Second as "System Resumption", describing the No-God almost like a computer programme.

 

I don't think we should discount the Dunyain calling the No-God the Absolute.  The No-God being The-God-of-Gods manifest in the world (though yoked to a purpose) explains its metaphysical peculiarities.

 

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The creation myth of the Cunuroi sounds relevant: Imimorul fled the Heavens to seek succour in the World, hiding deep in the bowels of the earth and hoping that the Gods would not be able to follow or see him. Lonely, he cut off his shield arm and cut bones from it to craft the first Nonmen. He then founded Nihrimsul. His oldest son and daughter, Tsonos and Olissis, became lovers and, fearing his wrath at their incest, they murdered him and fled, eventually founding Siol as a refust. One of their younger sibilings inherited Nihrimsul. The other seven mansions derived from Siol, so the Siolan version of the story (in which Imimorul founded Siol and died naturally, with a jealous younger child founding Nihrimsul) became dominant even though it is (clearly, at this point) bullshit.

This explains why all the Nonmen are damned: the entire species is born from incest. It's also made clear (via the Inverse Fire) that their plan to find oblivion did not work, ever. So the question is was Imimorul a god or something else? He may have been one of the Hundred, splintered from the God-of-Gods, and was the aspect that loved the World so much he made his home on it, and tried to avoid Damnation for himself and his children.

 

 

The Non-man mythology seems like just myth. If it is true then Immimorul could be nothing but a god, but how can you murder a God?  If he was real, cutting off his arm to gestate Nonmen in lions is some weird shit.  Would it be necessary for a God?  And if he was a person, some kind of mad scientist in far, future-Earth, it's still weird.

 

Well this formatting went terrible terrible wrong.  Apparently [ quote]  [ /quote] didn't work so well.

[lokisnow]

reposting a bit I wrote last night from the other forum:

 

well it seems logical the third series is called "The Second Apocalypse". As to whether the world is doomed I think it is complicated.

If we take Bakker at his word that this ending is the ending he envisioned, then think of it in terms as an anti-thesis to Lord of the Rings. Bakker wanted to see an ending where Frodo fails, where Sauron or even Gollum is ultimately triumphant and good ultimately fails. Hail Satan, he wins! The second apocalypse is not prevented and all the world shall perish.  Teen Bakker, He wanted a typically teenage "dark" ending where "dark" = "deep" and dark/deep operates as its typical and inherently juvenile proxy for "true truth of the most true truth evah." aka, winning the magical belief lottery, as all teens necessarily believe themselves to have done when they get all rebellious and all-knowing.

But, Bakker is very different from the D&D teen that conceived this original story. Particularly as philosophy and his pedantic agendas have infused and reshaped the story in rather profound ways, I would imagine. 

So is the world actually doomed? As originally intended, I would say absolutely, that is the entire point of the story, to fail getting the one ring into mount doom. Is the world actually doomed? as it is shaped now? no, I'd say it is a coin flip. I'd lean toward doomed because I doubt Bakker can ultimately let go of the seductive tentacles of himself being the uniquest magical belief lottery winner in that he conceived of a narrative of failure as the ultimate expression of true truth of the most true literary truth ever, so while there is a slight chance the world is not doomed, I somewhat doubt Bakker can escape his own hubris and not ultimately doom everything.

So why doomed, why the narrative of failure? because teenagers (and new zealand filmmakers) think that the Lord of the Rings is about getting the ring into mount doom. This action is a macguffin. Thematically, the Lord of the Rings is about souls in conflict with a fallen world. About struggling to manifest the "right thing to do" via the sacrifices necessitated in a world defined by war, war as a manifestation of the world's fallen state. That even paradise is not left untouched by war, to return changed is to return to a world that has itself changed, that even if warriors luckily return, they bring the war with them and can never really escape the sacrifices their souls made in the battlefields until the sweet release of death is finally claimed.  This is the essence of the story's mythical ontology, a concretized reflection of abstract moral quandaries--Lord of the Rings transmogrifies the intangible in a way that makes intrinsic sense to the human brain, the same way innumerable religions have transmogrified the abstract into the tangible, by activating all our myth identifying pattern circuits in in our brains and satisfying their hunger for meaning.

But why do I have hope? Because Bakker is aware of all of the above. He knows that teenage Bakker thought it was all about getting the ring into Mt Doom, but philosopher Bakker knows this single plot mechanism is merely the Frame upon which the myth hangs. Teenage Bakker wanted to wreck the myth by turning it upside down, a narrative of failure. Philosopher Bakker wants to show how an upside down myth is still the same myth, hanging from the same frame, enjoining the same beliefs, activating the same neural circuits. Philosopher Bakker will want to remove the myth, remove the frame, until nothing is left but zero, the unceasing measure that is the cubit of creation. and that, for some odd reason, gives me hope that it is not a pure narrative of failure pretending to be literature. Anticipating the end that ends with a removal to zero, I think that will be sort of like finding Bastian and the Princess floating alone in the black after the Nothing has consumed everything in the NeverEnding Story. 

[Werthead]

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I agree. Although on this Creation myth, it's not clear who Imimorul had sex with, in order to create Tsonos and Olissis (if indeed he did). My crackpot theory is that there is a connection between Onkis, Siol and the Head on a Pole. Onkis is the goddess of the darkness that comes before, and IMO the matriarch of the Nonmen. 

 

In the myth he didn't have sex with anyone, he crafted the Nonmen from his own body.

[Werthead]

Something I'm puzzled a lot of people have missed is the temporal paradox that happens at the end of the book:

Something happened in the Golden Court that messed up time. Malowebi completely loses it for several minutes, despite his observations being magically constant for the whole book, and then has to flashback to remember Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas becoming the No-God.

So my take is that probability went completely out of the window and for a few minutes there were two timelines in simultaneous motion: one where Kellhus defeated the Consult and descended from on high to greet his victorious troops, and one where he was salted and the Object instead descended and the No-God then Resumed.

What resolved the paradox? Mimara and the Judging Eye. And the Consult knew this, which is why Aurang ordered the skin-spy to get her to Golgotterath at all costs. When Mimara beheld Kellhus with the Judging Eye, the probability wavefront collapsed into one conclusion: the No-God had returned. My guess is that the alternative, that Kellhus wins and then conquers Hell or turns Earwa into Hell, was unfathomable. If you believe the JE is the eye of the God of Gods or a representative of Onkis or something else, it could have chosen the outcome - which at least allows for the marginal hope of victory later on - in that moment from two perfectly-balanced outcomes.

If this wasn't the case, Mimara and the JE literally served no purpose whatsoever, and doesn't explain why the Consult orchestrated her journey to Gologotterath.

 

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

If this wasn't the case, Mimara and the JE literally served no purpose whatsoever, and doesn't explain why the Consult orchestrated her journey to Gologotterath.

 

I think that was answered in WLW, when we see the Skin-Spy talk with Aurang. "At the very least, she will take you home". 

She's an Anasurimbor, and Aurang doesn't understand all the complexities of how the No-God will be awakened but he does understand that an Anasurimbor is key to resumption of the No-God. The 'false' prophecy is that an Anasurimbor will return; the true one is that an Anasurimbor is necessary to awaken the No-God.

But he doesn't know what one it is, so he has to protect.

As to time going funky, I ascribed that to the Topos and the crossing over of the Outside into the area, which causes all sorts of weirdness. We've seen that before with Mimara and Cil-Aujas, and again with Saubon going back to Mengedda when he died. 

Mind you, I really like your idea, but the less crackpot things appear to be more accurate in general when dealing with these books. People laughed when I said that the Inchoroi were incompetent, and it turns out that yes, they're totally incompetent. 

[jurble]

So the Kellhus-Illusion wasn't a hologram but the entire Ordeal experiencing White-Luck Warrior vision?  That seems possible, but where would Li'l Kel has been in that timeline?  Li'l Kel repeatedly ruins the Gods-Viewed-World and keeps it from being extant.  That Kellhus' victory was an equally probable timeline as the No-God would have required Kelmomas to not be there somehow, right?

The repeated references to Golgotterath being Conditioned Ground make me wonder if we're still within Big Moe's machinations and that even Li'l Kel was somehow anticipated by Big Moe.

 

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

So the Kellhus-Illusion wasn't a hologram but the entire Ordeal experiencing White-Luck Warrior vision?  That seems possible, but where would Li'l Kel has been in that timeline?  Li'l Kel repeatedly ruins the Gods-Viewed-World and keeps it from being extant.  That Kellhus' victory was an equally probable timeline as the No-God would have required Kelmomas to not be there somehow, right?

Pretty much. How precisely that works, I don't know.

[Darth Richard II]

So when should I start selling my "Kalbear was right!" t shirts

[lokisnow]

30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Something I'm puzzled a lot of people have missed is the temporal paradox that happens at the end of the book:

Something happened in the Golden Court that messed up time. Malowebi completely loses it for several minutes, despite his observations being magically constant for the whole book, and then has to flashback to remember Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas becoming the No-God.

So my take is that probability went completely out of the window and for a few minutes there were two timelines in simultaneous motion: one where Kellhus defeated the Consult and descended from on high to greet his victorious troops, and one where he was salted and the Object instead descended and the No-God then Resumed.

What resolved the paradox? Mimara and the Judging Eye. And the Consult knew this, which is why Aurang ordered the skin-spy to get her to Golgotterath at all costs. When Mimara beheld Kellhus with the Judging Eye, the probability wavefront collapsed into one conclusion: the No-God had returned. My guess is that the alternative, that Kellhus wins and then conquers Hell or turns Earwa into Hell, was unfathomable. If you believe the JE is the eye of the God of Gods or a representative of Onkis or something else, it could have chosen the outcome - which at least allows for the marginal hope of victory later on - in that moment from two perfectly-balanced outcomes.

If this wasn't the case, Mimara and the JE literally served no purpose whatsoever, and doesn't explain why the Consult orchestrated her journey to Gologotterath.

 

I really like this.

Because the Traveler at the beginning of TJE is now obviously one of the Consult Dunyain (many of us theorized it was Dunyain when the book first came out).

And Kellhus is totally non plussed at Akka and Mimara's arrival. they are irrelevant to him at golgotteranth. he has no leverage point to move them to. no use for them, they are idle throughout the battle.

If he has no use for them, then this logically infers that Kellhus did not condition their path to ishual. Kellhus was not responsible for the traveler and kellhus was not responsible for Achamian's changed dreams.

So who is responsible for Achamian's changed dreams? The consult dunyain. Per Wert, they have inferred that Kellhus confronting them will result in split timelines. the only way to resolve this and defeat kellhus is with the judging eye. They alter Achamian's dreams to make him go to the coffers and then they create the map of ishual and plant it in the coffers. they want them to to go to ishual so that they then come to golgotteranth.

we should also consider timelines, iirc, the consult dunyain have been in charge for about 6 years. iirc this is about the point in time when akka's dreams changed and when kelmomas was born.

 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

So who is responsible for Achamian's changed dreams? The consult dunyain. Per Wert, they have inferred that Kellhus confronting them will result in split timelines. the only way to resolve this and defeat kellhus is with the judging eye. They alter Achamian's dreams to make him go to the coffers and then they create the map of ishual and plant it in the coffers. they want them to to go to ishual so that they then come to golgotteranth.

 

So for this to work:

The DunSult have to know about the Judging Eye, they have to know about Akka (who comes as a surprise to Aurang in WLW), they have to anticipated that both Akka would go to the scalpoi AND Mimara would go to Akka, and they had to be feeding Akka the dreams (somehow) despite their not having access to Seswatha's heart at all. 

[jurble]

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

I really like this.

Because the Traveler at the beginning of TJE is now obviously one of the Consult Dunyain (many of us theorized it was Dunyain when the book first came out).

And Kellhus is totally non plussed at Akka and Mimara's arrival. they are irrelevant to him at golgotteranth. he has no leverage point to move them to. no use for them, they are idle throughout the battle.

If he has no use for them, then this logically infers that Kellhus did not condition their path to ishual. Kellhus was not responsible for the traveler and kellhus was not responsible for Achamian's changed dreams.

So who is responsible for Achamian's changed dreams? The consult dunyain. Per Wert, they have inferred that Kellhus confronting them will result in split timelines. the only way to resolve this and defeat kellhus is with the judging eye. They alter Achamian's dreams to make him go to the coffers and then they create the map of ishual and plant it in the coffers. they want them to to go to ishual so that they then come to golgotteranth.

we should also consider timelines, iirc, the consult dunyain have been in charge for about 6 years. iirc this is about the point in time when akka's dreams changed and when kelmomas was born.

 

Akka and Mimara's arrival is so improbable that Kellhus would instantly deduce that the Consult was behind it were it not he himself.  And he would investigate its ends.  Kellhus isn't concerned by their presence and their presence doesn't affect how he confronts the Consult Dunyain.  Had he not planned their presence and the altered dreams (because he knows of the altered dreams and doesn't care) then he would have investigated it.  Kellhus cannot abide mysteries and he cannot risk them at this point.

I think, rather, Akka and Mimara are insurance against his own defeat.   Against fellow Dunyain he couldn't guarantee his victory and he needed Akka to save whatever schoolmen he could from the shock of defeat.

Or that this is all Conditioned Ground and Kellhus explicitly needed himself to die and reach the Outside (but needed Ajokli for other reasons up to this point) and Li'l Kel was Kellhus cheating Ajokli.

 

Edit: Did anyone else notice Achamian describing Mimara as brown eyed?  Wasn't she green-eyed in TJE?  Could've sworn she was (implying her biological dad was Norsirai).

Edit 2: I'm fairly certain Kellhus-Hologram is just a Hologram not simultaneous timeline:

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His image fairly dazzled, cast tangles of gold across innumerable obsidian fractures, glimmered over myriad surfaces of metal and enamel. It bore no Mark.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7930-7932). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

It seems like the projection is fraying and Achamian mistakes this for Kellhus' godlikeness.

[redeagl]

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Scylvendi stole the Heron Spear when they sacked Cenei, which makes me think that Moenghus is now in a key place to find it.

The alternative is that they use the Sun Lance (the other Spear of Light) instead, but it's unclear what happened to it. My interpretation was that Kellhus dropped it, Kayutus picked it up and then lasered the MRA Dragon with it once Serwa distracted it, but to say that part is pretty unclear is a massive understatement.

I thought it'd be interesting to track those who died and didn't:

 

The Earwa Book of the Fallen:

• Kellhus
• Proyas
• Shariautas
• Aurang
• Serwa (almost certainly)
• Cnaiur (again)
• Cet'ingira
• Sorweel

 

The Survivors

• Achamian
• Esmenet
• Mimara
• Kelmomas (as the No-God)
• The Four Dunyain who now rule the Consult
• Aurax
• Malowebi (albeit only as a disembodied head)
• Moenghus (as the new Chief-of-Tribes of the Scylvendi)
• The Child of Ishual

 

Unclear

• Meppa (but probably survived)
• Kayutas (if he'd died I suspect this would have been made clear)
• Saccarees (but probably dead)
• Any named member of the Ordeal who didn't overtly die on-screen is probably dead anyway.

Zorsoronga

Also, I wonder what will the Consult do with Malowebi's head... Probably the same as Kellhus so that we get some more privileged PoVs.

[redeagl]

I also wonder if we will see Likaro in TSTSNBN... It would be really awesome.

[jurble]

I would love Likaro to be someone actually intelligent and charming.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Finished and at the end I found myself mildly disappointed. I read this series almost entirely for Bakker the Storyteller not Bakker the Philosopher and I thought this is the first book in the new series to skew too much to the latter. I agree the Sranc-Ordeal was too long but I also agree with IllusiveMan that it and the Proyas conclusion that followed managed to really affect me and I have to applaud that.

But then again he really should have died after Kellhus' confession, like Moenghus should have died when jumping off the cliff, like Cnauir should have died and stayed dead in the last series - it just feels like there are too many pointless, ultimately futile, words and people cluttering up the story.  That's another thing; I felt strangely disconnected from every character in the story except maybe Serwe and Proyas. Sorwheel was easily my favourite character thus far but in this book - after inexplicably becoming gay for some reason - he seemed to blend in with Akka and Ese and Mimara and every other character trapped in their increasingly insane introspections. I don't think its just me reading too fast I think the characterization really did suffer in this book. Also I agree that the ending was way too abrupt, especially after the glacial start. ESPECIALLY when we never really got to see the conclusion to Ishterebinth and how the trio escaped.

Anyway having said all that I really liked the DunSult reveal. Like Kalbear I never really considered the consult and the Inchi's a threat worthy of Kellhus, so when he faced five of his peers and a hundred skin spys with chorae for hands walked in I finally felt like he was in real danger. For about a minute.

 

14 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

 

Or that this is all Conditioned Ground and Kellhus explicitly needed himself to die and reach the Outside (but needed Ajokli for other reasons up to this point) and Li'l Kel was Kellhus cheating Ajokli

 

This is my interpretation. Kellhus has everyone where he wants them. If all he wanted to do was escape damnation he could have joined the consult 20 years ago but he loves Esme and he loves Proyas and he probably loves Serwe and his motivation is to break the cycle of damnation.

Some things that I thought were significant that no one has mentioned;

1) Mek seemed to imply that even attempting to near the Absolute brings damnation. More evidence that Koringhus was wrong or flawed.

2) Speaking of which does anyone have any ideas what Qirri might do to the mind ? Serwa saw more, or at least felt like she did but in the end she was also struck somehow ? Does that mean Qirri gives you the Nonmen's confusion as well as their strength ?

3) What on earth happened with Serwe; where did that last Chorae come from ? I couldn't wrap my head around what happened in that scene.

4) Who do we think summoned and directed the deamon prince ? At first I thought it was Kellhus, then I thought one of the Scarlet Schoolmen but the scene seemed significant somehow and i'm not sure what to make of it.

edit:

5) The Dunyain have been tinkiering with the Ark and the No-God is a subsystem of the Ark. In response to IllusiveMan's worry that only the Dunyain matter now I counter that the Ark's AI is the series' Chekov's Gun, that they will eventually awaken the only intelligence that  eclipses them. I feel like this is the only knowledge Kellhus gained from speaking to the Consult and the only thing that can upset his plans.

6) Remember Mekitrig was beheaded. I'm fully expecting soulswaping shinanegans.

[Gaston de Foix]

3 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

This is my interpretation. Kellhus has everyone where he wants them. If all he wanted to do was escape damnation he could have joined the consult 20 years ago but he loves Esme and he loves Proyas and he probably loves Serwe and his motivation is to break the cycle of damnation.

I am perfectly capable of believing that Kellhus had a contingency plan and has survived in some form. I struggle to believe  that he "loved" Proyas. Nor has Proyas escaped from damnation. His deal with Ajokli was not to break the cycle of damnation. Ajokli was interested in eroding the border between the Outside and Earwa. 

One thing I noticed on a quick flick through key scenes. The Dunyain seize Kelmomas through hands and sorcery. So the surviving Dunyain are sorcerors of some form. 

[odium]

Ultimately, this book disappointed me, not only because of many points already mentioned throughout this thread but also because it shakes my faith in Bakker's capabilities as a writer. I appreciate a lot of what he wanted to evoke in a lot of different moments throughout the book, but the execution of literally everything felt like it missed the mark. I can't escape the sensation that Bakker cheated himself out of so many moments that could have had a powerful impact on the reader, at the end of this seven book journey. So much of it was because of writing so ambiguous as to become borderline incompetent - and I say that knowing, without a doubt, a lot of philosophy flies over my head, but what does it matter if a fraction of a fraction of his readership actually groks the meaning of what goes on?

IMO, a great deal of TSA's appeal was the incredible sense of depth it offered. I, at least, truly felt like so much was going on behind the scenes that could be better appreciated on a second read through... and in many senses, that is true. Having finished TUC and feeling sorely disappointed, I still think it's a vastly more cerebral fantasy series than anything I've read in the genre. But when so much is left unclear to the readers that we're left theorizing about key plot points, and Bakker's comments seem to indicate he didn't intend for that level of ambiguity, I don't know what to think. If anything, TGO and TUC have gone to great lengths to show that a lot of the depth wasn't ever really there. 

I can't remember the child of Ishual's situation at the end of TGO, but I kept wondering to myself if he would ever be mentioned at all throughout TUC. He is just a single example of so many characters whose arcs were either aborted or felt pointless from the very beginning. Moenghus (Jr), Sorweel (despite the fact that I felt like he had one of the better resolutions in the story), just to name a few... but far more vitally to the story, why the fuck did we get four books of Achamian and Mimara's dread journey to Golgotterath only for them to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? I like Wert's interpretation that the DunSult led Akka and Mimara there because TJE was key to resolving two parallel timelines, but even if this is true, it should absolutely receive more clarification in the text.

We received six books building up the Consult as the ultimate threat to humanity. Aurang, Shauriatas, Mekeritrig... I can see where Bakker probably intended for Kellhus to effortlessly trounce them, only to be undone by something so small as to pass beneath his notice. I don't think that is a lazy plot device by its nature, but the execution just left a sour taste in my mouth. Between TGO and TUC, it felt like I read five hundred pages about the teeming Sranc hordes and the terrors undergone by the Ordeal to reach Golgotterath, only for the ringleaders to be effortlessly dealt with over the span of a few pages. As a reader I knew that they posed no threat to Kellhus. I had absolutely no doubt that he was outrageously beyond the scope of the antagonists' "power," but it just felt unconvincing. I know he's the prodigal son of an intellectually advanced people, but these are entities who have walked the earth for thousands and thousands of years and who are prodigies in their own right, and they just get handwaved away... in Cet'ingira's case, literally.

Honestly, so much hangs on the suspension of disbelief. On one hand we're led to believe that Kellhus (and maybe the DunSult?) are orchestrating everything, have accounted for every possible contingency or twist of possibility, but on the other... why did Kellhus need the Great Ordeal at all, honestly? In the end he did all the heavy lifting himself. He only engaged with the teeming hordes of Sranc to help convey the Ordeal to Golgotterath, and later to defend it. He could have just used the Metagnosis to jump there, killed the leaders of the Consult and murdered the Dunyain instead of pausing to dialogue with them. Honestly, why did Kellhus just leave Ishual to be plundered by the Consult to begin with? From the very beginning we saw how Moenghus was able to survive captivity with the Sranc. Was it so far-fetched as to be beneath his notice, that maybe some of his brothers would get caught and just manipulate their way to the head of the Consult? 

tl;dr: My thoughts are a little incoherent here, but yeah, I find myself completely unconvinced. I can see the intent but the execution just did not make it happen for me. Characters whose plot arcs and their resolutions felt abrupt, trite or meaningless; questions too big to go unanswered that can pretty much only be explained by having readers peer too deeply into the text, even when we've been shown that many times things were exactly what they seemed on the surface; a handful of red herrings scattered throughout that were either clumsy inclusions or seeds for a series that isn't even confirmed to exist...

I'll continue to adore this series for its beautiful prose, for the cerebral story and the impressive feats of world-building, but this ending did not satisfy me whatsoever.

And let's not even get started on the dragon. Serwa is right, what the fuck does a dragon know about cunny?