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The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

You  actually reminded me that my other big question from the last book was what separates the Dunyain, they are all near perfect computers they should all reach the same logical conclusions. In this book Kellhus says the difference is the tools they were exposed to when leaving Ishual but this can't be right as the 4 were also presumably Gnostic sorcerers. I speculated maybe the difference was Kell/Kor's ability to love and that was why they were so prodigious but this still doesn't explain Moenghus.

Well, it appears to be precisely right. To whit:

  • Moenghus gets introduced to the Cishaurim, which believes that the Outside is bullshit and gods are random creepy things that are evil AND that the Consult is evil and wants to end the world. His result: save the world from both the Consult and gods, and does it through the only power he has - manipulation.
  • Kellhus first gets introduced to the Gnosis and Seswatha, so believes that the Consult is super bad and evil. He then gets introduced to the Outside (probably on the Circumfix, then through the Daimos) and believes that gods are just more power to be used.
  • Koringhus gets introduced to the gnosis via survival, and sees it as power but believes he's smartest. Then he finds out that everything has already happened via Mimara and the Judging Eye, determines all are connected and goes an entirely different route. He ends his life with the only power he has - forgiving of his sins and joining with others.
  • DunSult get the same gnosis introduction Koringhus does, then find out about the Tekne. Just like Kellhus with Daimos, they see the Tekne as power, not as good or evil. 

So it isn't just that Kellhus is introduced to the Gnosis - it's that he has the Gnosis AND he has the Mandate, and later the Daimos. His first taste of metapower isn't the Gnosis, it's the circumfix. And that knowledge - that he can be more, that he can be connected with a god - THAT is what drives everything else. 

Whereas the first taste of power that the DunSult get isn't the Gnosis either - it's the Tekne. That's what they'd first be introduced to, what they'd first be able to figure out. They'd see Gnostic stuff, but they'd get to really experience the Inverse Fire, the Inchoroi, the Consult, etc. And that's what they'd be able to amaze the Consult with, just like Kellhus amazed everyone with his knowledge of history. They'd be impressed how fast they determined first principles of Tekne, how they could determine why it had failed before, etc. That's what got everyone on their side. 

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

Yeah I agree that it felt strangely out of place. The only way I could explain it was that this was Bakker's response to the feminists, like "women in my books have no agency? Look here's Serwa she's a strong independent woman and she don't take no shit from any sexist dragon!" But who on earth is still reading that gives a fuck ? Kalbear ? Like there is literally nothing that Bakker could write now that wouldn't be interpreted as misogynistic to this crowd while the rest of us are wondering why a Dragon is talking about cunny.

I kind of took it as a shout-out to Happy Ent as well, who was all 'this is what you people who want agency in female characters want! SEE! THIS IS IT! AND IT SUCKS! SEE!

And amusingly Serwa kicking ass was one of my favorite bits, as long as you completely ignore Skuthula and what he says, because the entire running dialog was so stupid. It wasn't offensive or anything; it was just really dumb. 

Of course, while this is going on two of the three main female characters are literally acting as mother and midwife in the middle of the biggest battle in the history of the world, so...not so much with the agency there.

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

Infact I think it was a strangely lightheartend scene all together. How the Hero (whose name I swore to remember but have now forgotten) boasts after surviving its breath then gets immediately chomped up.

That was hilarious and awesome.

Just now, Sheep the Evicted said:

How Dragons are flying tanks but are so easily offended. It probably says alot about the series that these scenes, this ...attempt at humour?.. feels so blasphemously out of place. 

Again, I think that it wasn't out of place, merely poorly executed. Having a similar fight sequence to Return of the King and Eowyn vs. the Witch King works perfectly well in a giant climactic battle, and having some humor works well too - but Serwa being funny is weird (Cnaiur would have been far better in that way), a dragon spouting off about pussy is exceptionally weird, and the whole thing got yanked out of suspension of disbelief because of that for me.

I mean, seriously:

Quote

“Yesss ...”
Never had her task been so clear.
“We ...”
“Like ...”
“Cunny ...”

This is right up there with Myrish Swamp as painful reading.

 

5 minutes ago, WEWLAD said:

Didn't George invent that?

Nah. It's an older term, used in ribald stories and whatnot. Appeared even in Canterbury Tales. Also showed up in the series Rome at one point.

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17 minutes ago, WEWLAD said:

Is Cnaiur a fellow agent of Ajokli, or IS he Ajokli?

Cnaiur is mad, so the Outside leaks a bit into him.  He was described in the first trilogy as being possessed by Gilgaol when he was all battle-crazy at points.  At the time of his death, he was Hate-crazy, so Ajokli flowed into him, I imagine.  But he isn't Ajokli in the manner Kellhus was Ajokli.  When other characters have been temporarily possessed by gods, it's always seemed ethereal - which is why in my first reading of the initial trilogy years ago, I dismissed the Gods as being fake and the possessions as being just superstition and confabulation.    Going backwards from the second series, where the Gods are very much confirmed as real, all the talk of divine possession should be taken at face value, I think.

But when Kellhus was possessed by Ajokli he was straight up the God himself on Earwa, capable of squishing a Dunsult member with the Force.  Cnaiur would be incapable of that, I imagine.

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25 minutes ago, WEWLAD said:

That also has to mean System Completion is... completed, at some point, otherwise it wouldn't be invisible. Unless it's a quality of complex Tekne artifacts to be invisible to the gods, which would explain why the Ark is also invisible.

Well, this is where it gets weird. I thought that the No-God was invisible because it lasted beyond the apocalypse, and the gods could only see everything in the current creation - so anything that existed beyond that had to be invisible to them.

But the Ark and all of Golgotterath not existing for the gods makes it much more confusing. Does that mean that anything that lives beyond Apocalypse is invisible? That anything outside of Earwa is invisible? 

What's especially interesting to me is that Cnaiur as Ajokli/Gilgaol (SERIOUSLY WHICH ONE WAS IT GOD DAMN IT) couldn't see the No-God with god eyes - but Mimara can see the No-God with the Judging Eye. To me, this implies that the Apocalypse isn't the end of whatever powers the Judging Eye and what powers damnation, it is only the end of the gods. 

25 minutes ago, WEWLAD said:

I'd like to think that between his realization of the Dunyain subsuming the Consult, and his insight on the No-God's inevitable victory, Kellhus wasn't planning on winning in the Golden Room, and something else was afoot.

Yeah, but after 7 books when we keep thinking that 'ah ha,it's a ruse' and it turns out not to be, at some point it's just them not being fallible. Kellhus being somewhat cocky about Ultimate Cosmic Power isn't that weird, either.

25 minutes ago, WEWLAD said:

Also, please don't be a simulation. Well, I could sort of live with the series being the extension of a Surface-Detailesque conflict.

At the end of the whole thing it'll be revealed that the Judging Eye is powered by Bakker's actual vision.

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4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

What's especially interesting to me is that Cnaiur as Ajokli/Gilgaol (SERIOUSLY WHICH ONE WAS IT GOD DAMN IT) couldn't see the No-God with god eyes - but Mimara can see the No-God with the Judging Eye. To me, this implies that the Apocalypse isn't the end of whatever powers the Judging Eye and what powers damnation, it is only the end of the gods. 

Wasn't the Judging Eye said to be to see the world as The God sees it?  The God, despite being broken, would still be Omniscient and Omnipresent and Omnipotent and so and such.  So, even if the Outside is locked and the Hundred disappear as discrete entities, The God would still exist, else it wouldn't be The God, would it? It'd just be an extra-dimensional monster like the Hundred.

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7 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

Wasn't the Judging Eye said to be to see the world as The God sees it?  The God, despite being broken, would still be Omniscient and Omnipresent and Omnipotent and so and such.  So, even if the Outside is locked and the Hundred disappear as discrete entities, The God would still exist, else it wouldn't be The God, would it? It'd just be an extra-dimensional monster like the Hundred.

Right - TJE is supposed to be to see with the eye of God, just like the Cish sing with the voice of God, and the Few enact things with the tools of God. What we didn't know before is what 'apocalypse' looked like. We still don't, mind you, but we now have an idea that the Apocalypse ends the gods and their power, but doesn't end whatever fuels Mimara. It could have been that Apocalypse was the end of the universe, or the end of creation, or the end of the ability for God to objectively fix Earwa with its gaze. Our choices are narrowed down a bit.

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Everything is so ambiguous :( I just wish I understood if Bakker intended it to be that way, or if it was a bit of a goof. He seems to think he put up giant red flags for some of the twists in the story that went unnoticed.

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Nah I just don't buy that answer for their differences, it has too many holes in it. Like Moe was in the world for twenty years, why on earth didn't he grasp the reality of the gods ? Being a Cish more than anyone should have shown him the value illogic and subjective emotion has in their world but he never embraced it. Why didn't he do like Kellhus did and hypnotise a mandate schoolman and learn the Gnosis ? Titigra has already shown us it is possible to wield both. Infact he didn't even get that far, after twenty years Moe was still only at the "The Consult suck" stage. 

I guess the main question is why did they each stop where they did. All Dunyain master their surroundings why settle for just the Gnosis or the Tekne or the Judging Eye or the material World. Why is Kellhus the only one that  wanted it all ?

 

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

What's especially interesting to me is that Cnaiur as Ajokli/Gilgaol (SERIOUSLY WHICH ONE WAS IT GOD DAMN IT) couldn't see the No-God with god eyes - but Mimara can see the No-God with the Judging Eye. To me, this implies that the Apocalypse isn't the end of whatever powers the Judging Eye and what powers damnation, it is only the end of the gods.

 

This is a great insight though that i didn't notice which I guess gives more evidence to the side that Koringhus was actually on to something. The Eye outwits Dunyain and sees further than gods it is the greatest power that we know of in the series thus far, by winning its approval Koringhus may have actually found a measure of salvation. So I guess one way to square this with Mekitrigs comments is either 1) to say that Mek is wrong. But thats no fun. OR 2) say that your not damned for approaching the Absolute but HOW you approach the absolute. Its can't be with logical and force like the Dunyain and Inchi's did it. It has to be with faith. Which ties in nicely with the whole scriptural theme of the books. Blind faith is the only way to salvation.

 

Also the more I think about it the more I like Wert's time paradox theory. And not just because it justifies Akka/Mim's whole story arc. We have seen the Eye "decide" reality before in Cil-Aujas. I also like it because The God shifting reality about any time he pleases seems like the kind of problem that even Kellhus can't shrug off and I'm once again thrilled by the idea that Kellhus might not have seen this coming and he may actually be in trouble.

But then again I can't believe that Kellhus hasn't noticed that Mim has the TJE after all these years. He must have known TJE was in his war camp and planned accordingly, surely.

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4 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

 

Also the more I think about it the more I like Wert's time paradox theory. And not just because it justifies Akka/Mim's whole story arc. We have seen the Eye "decide" reality before in Cil-Aujas. I also like it because The God shifting reality about any time he pleases seems like the kind of problem that even Kellhus can't shrug off and I'm once again thrilled by the idea that Kellhus might not have seen this coming and he may actually be in trouble.

But then again I can't believe that Kellhus hasn't noticed that Mim has the TJE after all these years. He must have known TJE was in his war camp and planned accordingly, surely.

Well, I've had a night to ruminate on Wert's theory. While I still think it's impressive, I lean towards the hologram explanation. Because:

- Why no more Mark in Kellhus? There is nothing that I can think of in the previous scenes (on the contrary even) or books that justifies the end of Damnation. In other words, in what kind of reality could Damnation be ended? Only in the heart and minds of Kellhus's followers, not in any real sense.

- The Golden Room scenes have already made clear that Kellhus was up to no good, so the image presented in the 'our salvation' scene felt false, profoundly false, that's what gives the scene its unreal effect. It's another expression of the problem and blindness of faith.

- Other signs of the reality of the No-God; the Horde silenced and retreating and Mimara's second baby born dead.

- The hologram is set up previously and makes more sense, considering the above.

- The Judging Eye is still seeing through the illusion which grabs everyone, is perhaps able with Mimara to break the illusion for the assembly.

Regarding Kellhus noticing something, it's pretty clear by now that Bakker clarifies that nobody can notice everything. Not even the Gods.

 

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Shower thought:

Kellhus' little sphere of space-crunching and spinning to beat Aurang wasn't as humiliating towards Aurang as i first thought.  Remember, Saccarees, greatest non-Dunyain sorcerer alive, couldn't even singe Aurang's Wards.  Why is that?  Probably because Aurang's Wards are Aporetic - they dispel magic directed towards them. 

So Kellhus pinching the space about Aurang and then spinning it was a way to avoid his Aporetic Wards - Kellhus didn't know how to directly breech Aporetic magic.

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So are spoiler tags no longer mandatory?

Spoiler

I think people are overlooking one big consequence of Kellhus' potential death.  When Kellhus first sees the inverse fire, Merk fully believes that, like all great men, Kellhus will see his own soul damned and be thus swayed.  Instead Kellhus doesn't see his soul as fodder but descending as hunger.  So what does this mean?  Kellhus dead means Kellhus is a big bad demon and likely a god in hell.  What's equally important is that time doesn't exist in the outside.  So if Kellhus is dead that not only means he's likely a God, it also means that he's been a God for the entire series.  

Here's the theory I'm kicking around.  Kellhus very well could have been Ajokli this entire time.  Even before Kellhus enters the picture as a prophet of the present, Ajokli was aware of the No-God.  He's special in some way.  Assuming Kellhus is and always has been a demon this entire series what does that look like?  Kellhus sees everyone and everything as a tool.  He would have no qualms deceiving and then betraying his past mortal self to bring about the conditions of what is essentially godhood.  He could have been conditioning his own ground.  Mortal Kellhus obviously would never trust anyone enough to just die on faith.  The fact that Kellhus is confirmed to become a demon by the inverse fire also serves as some proof that Ajokli didn't just claim his soul outright which I assume would happen if this were a a contract.  

I'm also no leaning towards the possibility that Celmomas was created by a vision of Ajokli as he died not Gilgaol.  I'm also not ruling out Onkis as head on a Pole Kellhus either.  If he swapped heads he is, quite literally, a head on a pole.  

As a meta argument, I look towards the unnamed finale series.  As I understand it the original story was supposed to end with this book but Bakker decided to extend it further.  So if the ultimate end was the annihilation of mankind, then extending that for two books seems rather boring. That would be two books of people just dying.  Instead I believe Kellhus was supposed to complete a bootstrap paradox in this book.  So the next series is just peeling back that revelation and how he's been conditioning his own ground the entire series.  Bakker likes to write story as a function of revelations.  I believe the two big threads that remain ain unanswered is the Absolute God or uncaring God of God's.  That pretty much as to be the last revelation.

 

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31 minutes ago, MisterGuyMan said:

So are spoiler tags no longer mandatory?

  Reveal hidden contents

I think people are overlooking one big consequence of Kellhus' potential death.  When Kellhus first sees the inverse fire, Merk fully believes that, like all great men, Kellhus will see his own soul damned and be thus swayed.  Instead Kellhus doesn't see his soul as fodder but descending as hunger.  So what does this mean?  Kellhus dead means Kellhus is a big bad demon and likely a god in hell.  What's equally important is that time doesn't exist in the outside.  So if Kellhus is dead that not only means he's likely a God, it also means that he's been a God for the entire series.  

Here's the theory I'm kicking around.  Kellhus very well could have been Ajokli this entire time.  Even before Kellhus enters the picture as a prophet of the present, Ajokli was aware of the No-God.  He's special in some way.  Assuming Kellhus is and always has been a demon this entire series what does that look like?  Kellhus sees everyone and everything as a tool.  He would have no qualms deceiving and then betraying his past mortal self to bring about the conditions of what is essentially godhood.  He could have been conditioning his own ground.  Mortal Kellhus obviously would never trust anyone enough to just die on faith.  The fact that Kellhus is confirmed to become a demon by the inverse fire also serves as some proof that Ajokli didn't just claim his soul outright which I assume would happen if this were a a contract.  

I'm also no leaning towards the possibility that Celmomas was created by a vision of Ajokli as he died not Gilgaol.  I'm also not ruling out Onkis as head on a Pole Kellhus either.  If he swapped heads he is, quite literally, a head on a pole.  

As a meta argument, I look towards the unnamed finale series.  As I understand it the original story was supposed to end with this book but Bakker decided to extend it further.  So if the ultimate end was the annihilation of mankind, then extending that for two books seems rather boring. That would be two books of people just dying.  Instead I believe Kellhus was supposed to complete a bootstrap paradox in this book.  So the next series is just peeling back that revelation and how he's been conditioning his own ground the entire series.  Bakker likes to write story as a function of revelations.  I believe the two big threads that remain ain unanswered is the Absolute God or uncaring God of God's.  That pretty much as to be the last revelation.

 

 A Hunger can just simply be a Ciphrang.  One of the meta-physical revelations in this book that one could easily miss is that Ciphrang were confirmed to have portfolios similar to the Gods.   Kakaliol is a minor god that governs the slums of Carythusal.  Kellhus's bargain with Ajokli will likely lead to him being one of those minor Gods.  Even if the number of believers = strength, the fact is that there's only a few hundred thousand Zaudunyani in the Outside.  The slums of Carythusal, a city a few thousand years old and the most populous in the Three Seas, have produced more souls for Kakaliol to feed on than Kellhus has Zaudunyani.   And Kakaliol is still a minor power.

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Spoiler tags were only necessary on page 1, for people who wandered into the thread by accident.

A further thought: the gods are described by the Nonmen as "principals" rather then sentient beings. I'm wondering if the gods are more animal than human, non-sentient but intelligent, acting on instinct rather than full logic. That would explain Ajokli screwing himself over at the moment of Kellhus's triumph (because he can't help it, it's nature, like the scorpion and the fox). For all that they're supposedly powerful beings, the gods of Earwa are sure immune to logic, intelligence or even just rational conversation.

If Imimorul was one of the gods, I wonder if he somehow achieved sentience or true volition, which is what led him to abandon the heavens and seek refuge in the World.

Quote

Mimara's second baby born dead

The death of a child is necessary for the Judging Eye to operate, it wasn't the case that the second baby was stillborn by the No-God, as no-one present experienced the feeling of dread, the exact moment of Initiation, that didn't seem to happen at Golgotterath until Mimara beheld the No-God with the Judging Eye. That's when Years of the Crib 2.0 kicked in. The second baby died from the Judging Eye's influence (or its death generated the Judging Eye, which then existed backwards and forwards in time), not the No-God's.

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

A further thought: the gods are described by the Nonmen as "principals" rather then sentient beings. I'm wondering if the gods are more animal than human, non-sentient but intelligent, acting on instinct rather than full logic. That would explain Ajokli screwing himself over at the moment of Kellhus's triumph (because he can't help it, it's nature, like the scorpion and the fox). For all that they're supposedly powerful beings, the gods of Earwa are sure immune to logic, intelligence or even just rational conversation.

The Tusk says they used to be human and walked the earth but I discount that as a bad source.  When Meppa says the Hundred are just Ciphrang, Psatma basically agreed with him so I operate under the assumption that the gods are just bigger badder Ciphrang.

As for intelligence Kellhus claims he made treaties with the Pit and Akjoli/Gilgaol seemed to have a conversation with Celmomas at the moment of his death.  I wouldn't say they're irrational or at least any less rational than a typical human.  We're all fundamentally the same except the bigger souls can dominate the weaker ones in a more obvious way in the outside.  Humans in Earwa or even real life Earth aren't exactly always rational either.

And if they do operate mostly under basic instinct, then wouldn't Ciphrang Kellhus just instinctively condition ground for himself?

2 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

 A Hunger can just simply be a Ciphrang.  One of the meta-physical revelations in this book that one could easily miss is that Ciphrang were confirmed to have portfolios similar to the Gods.   Kakaliol is a minor god that governs the slums of Carythusal.  Kellhus's bargain with Ajokli will likely lead to him being one of those minor Gods.  Even if the number of believers = strength, the fact is that there's only a few hundred thousand Zaudunyani in the Outside.  The slums of Carythusal, a city a few thousand years old and the most populous in the Three Seas, have produced more souls for Kakaliol to feed on than Kellhus has Zaudunyani.   And Kakaliol is still a minor power.

We've actually known that since Fanayal met Psatma and even the Yatwerian High Priestess admitted openly that demon and God is just a semantic argument.  Having said that, Judging Eye describes Cnaür as a Prince of Hell and he's that because, or at least heavily implied, he's committed so many acts of damnation.  So if he's a Prince of Hell, Kellhus, whose atrocities dwarf anything Cnaür has commuted, has to be more.  

Also remember that timedoesn't exist in the outside.  As Soubon died in Dagliash, he was able to grasp the hand of his younger self in his first Holy War Battle.  He's just a normal soul.  Kellhus, would be a Ciphrang for every bit as long as Yatwer the moment he becomes one.  So he could already be one of the 100 since page 1 of the first book.  He's not becoming Ciphrang a thousand years after Yatwer.  He's always been Ciphrang just like Yatwer.

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1 hour ago, MisterGuyMan said:

The Tusk says they used to be human and walked the earth but I discount that as a bad source.  When Meppa says the Hundred are just Ciphrang, Psatma basically agreed with him so I operate under the assumption that the gods are just bigger badder Ciphrang.

They're probably even worse. It does appear to be that the gods are different than Ciphrang; their abilities aren't stopped by chorae, for instance, whereas Ciphrang turn to salt. 

1 hour ago, MisterGuyMan said:

As for intelligence Kellhus claims he made treaties with the Pit and Akjoli/Gilgaol seemed to have a conversation with Celmomas at the moment of his death.  I wouldn't say they're irrational or at least any less rational than a typical human.  We're all fundamentally the same except the bigger souls can dominate the weaker ones in a more obvious way in the outside.  Humans in Earwa or even real life Earth aren't exactly always rational either.

And if they do operate mostly under basic instinct, then wouldn't Ciphrang Kellhus just instinctively condition ground for himself?

There's a line from TUC that applies here:

Quote

The Lord-and-Prophet of the Three Seas actually smiled. “You seek to starve the very Gods,” his reflection said. “Brothers, things so great need no light to cast shadows.”
“How do you mean?” the teeth-baring Dûnyain demanded.
“Some have always smelled your absence.”
At most,” the unscathed figure retorted. “They Intuit rather than Reason. They lack the Intellect to question.”
Malowebi saw more black-garbed assassins surfacing from the darkness reflected in the fin. There had to be a hundred of the creatures now—spiderfaces!— all of them bearing Chorae in their palms. It scissored his senses, looking forward to see reflections of the vacancies he sensed floating behind him.
“Which is why,” the Holy Aspect-Emperor said, “they needed me.”

The gods aren't irrational or rational, they're not actually conscious entities. They exist without reason and intellect, and instead simply act and react. Stimulus and response. Ajokli needed Kellhus. Ajokli and the other gods are very different than souls in that way, at least as far as we can tell. Especially since Akka believes souls do retain their intellect provided it isn't sheared away. Gods don't have that. They simply have hungers.

 

1 hour ago, MisterGuyMan said:

We've actually known that since Fanayal met Psatma and even the Yatwerian High Priestess admitted openly that demon and God is just a semantic argument.  Having said that, Judging Eye describes Cnaür as a Prince of Hell and he's that because, or at least heavily implied, he's committed so many acts of damnation.  So if he's a Prince of Hell, Kellhus, whose atrocities dwarf anything Cnaür has commuted, has to be more.  

Perhaps - perhaps it's because Cnaiur has bound those souls to him. We don't know for certain that Kellhus has, nor do we know whether or not Cnaiur as living binder of souls is different than Kellhus, who hasn't exactly cut swazond into himself.

1 hour ago, MisterGuyMan said:

Also remember that timedoesn't exist in the outside.  As Soubon died in Dagliash, he was able to grasp the hand of his younger self in his first Holy War Battle.  He's just a normal soul.  Kellhus, would be a Ciphrang for every bit as long as Yatwer the moment he becomes one.  So he could already be one of the 100 since page 1 of the first book.  He's not becoming Ciphrang a thousand years after Yatwer.  He's always been Ciphrang just like Yatwer.

Again, it's still unclear if Ciphrang are the same as gods. But otherwise I think this is reasonable, and goes well with the time shenanigans of the Judging Eye and (presumably) how Kelmomas is unseeable by the gods even before he becomes the No-God. 

What we don't know is whether or not gods can start from things. A problem with this theory is that gods have apparently existed since the God was broken, and that was their creation; mortal souls don't appear to have anything to do with that, and souls appear to be very different than Ciphrang and the like. (if they weren't, why is there a difference between enslaving souls and enslaving Ciphrang?)

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