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The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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55 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Simplest explanation is Kellhus was harvested by Ajokli.

I feel like this would have surely been the simplest answer if you told us right after WLW, where Kelmomas was presumed to work with/for Ajokli. Since then, where he's -seemingly- broken the Hundred's vision a few times and is apparently the No-God...a very simple  answer is that he just used his inherent absence to throw Ajokli off, as he's apparently done twice now, and skin-spy of the month did his job

 

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sort of beside the point, as it doesn't necessarily fit with the above is this: 

one thought to consider, if Golgotteranth itself is invisible to the Gods, then Ajokli NEEDED Kellhus to get inside Golgotteranth, he could not do so otherwise, as it was 'barricaded' so to speak against his kind. This is possibly why Ajokli is so triumphant acting within the Golden Room, because he finally has bypassed their defenses.

 

 

 

Yes, that's why Kellhus calls himself the Inverse Prophet. The Gods need a Kellhus to do what they can't. He's at once mortal and can see the No-God and can still reach them and communicate that knowledge to them. Seems like the basis of whatever pact they have.

I think that's why Kellhus shows back up when Kelmomas comes to the Golden Room; Ajokli is surprised and they go back to the mortal "eyes"; Kellhus. Unfortunately the lag time got him killed.

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why the hologram?

simple. The Dunsult know there will be survivors.

Because of the hologram, every single survivor is convinced to the deepest depths of their intellect and souls that Kellhus is the one inside the carapace.

No hologram, no one thinks that. 

hologram of Kellhus, every survivor tells the tale that the Aspect Emperor became the No God and betrayed all of humanity.

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26 minutes ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

Also Shae was the greatest prodigy of his age after all these millennia how was he unable to get the Ark/No-God up and running ? To my mind Shae was the only real threat in the consult and I kept wondering what a genius like him had been doing for the last few thousand years and the answer now really does seem to be nothing, which is even more unforgivable than his defeat.

I'm more confused by why he even resisted the Dunyain takeover and died for it. For a guy who's been attempting to close the world for thousands of years it seems weird that he would die "heroically" instead of accepting the Dunyain and understanding that they all have the same goal.

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9) Yep that seems to be our interpretation so far. But your right that if that's the case then "why didnt the Consult just keep feeding people to the machine" seems to be a pretty big hole and probably a sign that we are missing something important.

Also Shae was the greatest prodigy of his age after all these millennia how was he unable to get the Ark/No-God up and running ? To my mind Shae was the only real threat in the consult and I kept wondering what a genius like him had been doing for the last few thousand years and the answer now really does seem to be nothing, which is even more unforgivable than his defeat.

Oh and another thing, to borrow a WOTism where are all the Black Ajah ? Why haven't legions of sorcerers gone over to the Consult to try and save their souls, they all seem to be fairly convinced of their damnation so that's not an excuse. The more I think about it the less i like how weak and scarce they had become.

 

So keep in mind that the Inchoroi before the Consult had no idea about the No-God. Per TUC, Sil had to haul up the Inverse Fire and get it working again. Chances are most of the Inchoroi had never used any of this stuff or thought about it. They are soldier ants whose queen has died. 

They get a bit more info when they create the Womb Plague (though I don't know why, only that it was stated that they do). But it takes 1000 years of research by Shae to determine how to get the No-God working and that it is important. 

Chances are that the No-God isn't the original design. It probably didn't require a soul, or wasn't as picky, or required a sample soul in order to bootstrap the system and integrate it with the current casual god-frame. That might be an interesting idea; the reason that Nau-Cayuti works and the reason Kelmomas works is that both are god-entangled (citation needed, just throwing it out there) and only the god-entangled allow the No-God system to work and connect (and subvert) the connection between the gods and the souls and the Outside.

So then the No-God fails...somehow. Might be the Heron Spear, might be something else, but it fails, causes the indigo plague, and moves on. (theory: the way Ark purged worlds was to plug a worthy person into the No-God prosthesis and then design a custom genetic plague that would humanely wipe out most life to get to its 144k and leave the rest immortal and infertile to keep it that way, which is why No-God and plagues are connected). They still don't know a whole lot about how the thing works, they certainly don't know why NC worked (DunSult had to figure that out), and they had to spend a lot of time repairing - all with failure after failure. During this time they invented Skin-Spies - they were still discovering things - but there was no sign of them doing anything other than being secretive and listening. They probably were not particularly able to secure captives like they were in the past, but they probably kept feeding things in hopes that it would trigger again - only to fail, over and over and over again. 

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3 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

why the hologram?

simple. The Dunsult know there will be survivors.

Because of the hologram, every single survivor is convinced to the deepest depths of their intellect and souls that Kellhus is the one inside the carapace.

No hologram, no one thinks that. 

hologram of Kellhus, every survivor tells the tale that the Aspect Emperor became the No God and betrayed all of humanity.

Yeah, at first while reading it didn't even occur to me at all that that was a hologram, but after reading this thread I see this as a reasonable explanation. No one outside of the Consult seems to know that the No-God has someone inside it, let alone that it was Kellhus. The Consult wanted them to think that for some reason.

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8 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Yeah, at first while reading it didn't even occur to me at all that that was a hologram, but after reading this thread I see this as a reasonable explanation. No one outside of the Consult seems to know that the No-God has someone inside it, let alone that it was Kellhus. The Consult wanted them to think that for some reason.

...to crush their spirit, faith before the DunSult attacks. Yeah, that is a reasonable explanation of this manipulation device.

Man, 10 pages of TUC discussion in no time. I am *so* looking forward to Bakker AMA, and wondering how many of his answers will contain a RAFO/WAFO...

In interviews over the years, at Pat's site for instance, he did warn beforehand that not all metaphysics would be clarified and presented on a silver platter. As they tie in so deeply into the plot, that's quite the conundrum.

 

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8 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Yeah, at first while reading it didn't even occur to me at all that that was a hologram, but after reading this thread I see this as a reasonable explanation. No one outside of the Consult seems to know that the No-God has someone inside it, let alone that it was Kellhus. The Consult wanted them to think that for some reason.

Cloaking the Carapace in the hologram also gives it time to exit the Horn without being regarded as suspicious/blasted with sorcery (it lacks Chorae to protect itself).

Once outside the Horn, it can turn on the Whirlwind and go to town, like it did.

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Shower thought: The reason Ajokli realizes the Consult exists is because of his nature as the Prince of Hate.  He feels mortals hating something that he cannot see.

28 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

"Let there be deceit. Let there be desire"

alright folks. please iterate all instances of gods other than Ajokli and Yatwer interfering with the world.

also, to reiterate, I think Ajokli = Gilgaol, the simplest explanation is that there is only one four horned brother. That the "glory of war" is a lie from the prince of hate.

If we take the idea that there are two fundamental warring principals, we have this opening statement setting Deceit and Desire into a binary opposition. These two principals, these two hungers, manifest in the story as Ajokli and Yatwer, respectively.

Additionally, we should consider that Yatwer wars against Ajokli, not against Kellhus specifically, and all of her actions are done within the context of her opposition to Ajokli.

I like the idea.  So, we get all the Gilgaol possessions in the first trilogy which we can ascribe to Ajokli, but we also get Onkis talking to Inrau and Momas is presumably the one that attacked Momemn.  The latter two could be Yatwer under this schema?

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41 minutes ago, Sheep the Evicted said:

 

Oh and another thing, to borrow a WOTism where are all the Black Ajah ? Why haven't legions of sorcerers gone over to the Consult to try and save their souls, they all seem to be fairly convinced of their damnation so that's not an excuse. The more I think about it the less i like how weak and scarce they had become.

I feel like on the whole 'going over to the Consult' thing... it is  super hard to do.  Like, as far as the 3 Seas know, the Consult are a myth.  Even if you deduce that they exist you have to figure out a way to travel to Golgotterath without dying, and then hope they aren't just in a bad mood on the day you show up.

More importantly, I don't think the people at large know the Consult's goals.  Like, all that Bob Sorcerer know of Shae and co. is that they are lunatics who want to summon the No-God and destroy the world.  The idea that signing up with them could bring salvation isn't popularized.

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12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

"Let there be deceit. Let there be desire"

alright folks. please iterate all instances of gods other than Ajokli and Yatwer interfering with the world.

Some off the top of my head:

  • Husyelt talking with Ang with Eanna back in the day
  • Momas destroying Momemn
  • Gilgaol in the other Knife of Many Hands thingy
12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

also, to reiterate, I think Ajokli = Gilgaol, the simplest explanation is that there is only one four horned brother. That the "glory of war" is a lie from the prince of hate.

If we take the idea that there are two fundamental warring principals, we have this opening statement setting Deceit and Desire into a binary opposition. These two principals, these two hungers, manifest in the story as Ajokli and Yatwer, respectively.

Additionally, we should consider that Yatwer wars against Ajokli, not against Kellhus specifically, and all of her actions are done within the context of her opposition to Ajokli.

This violates the lokisnow principle of maximal literalness.

12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

sort of beside the point, as it doesn't necessarily fit with the above is this: 

one thought to consider, if Golgotteranth itself is invisible to the Gods, then Ajokli NEEDED Kellhus to get inside Golgotteranth, he could not do so otherwise, as it was 'barricaded' so to speak against his kind. This is possibly why Ajokli is so triumphant acting within the Golden Room, because he finally has bypassed their defenses.

That was my interpretation as well; the whole Great Ordeal isn't so Kellhus can win, it's so Ajokli can attempt to stop things, and Ajokli doing this and failing in his hubris and lack of sight (because he cannot see Kelmomas) isn't a failing of Kellhus, it's a failing of Ajokli. 

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18 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

hologram of Kellhus, every survivor tells the tale that the Aspect Emperor became the No God and betrayed all of humanity.

But...why does that matter? In the least? I mean, sure - the DunSult doing this is demoralizing, but the survivors that do exist are few and exceptionally far between, and more importantly them spreading word of Kellhus' demise doesn't matter. The Empire is in ruins. The Ordeal is basically any sorcerer and warrior able to come. Anyone who cares about Kellhus as a good guy is dead; if anything, this makes it more likely for Zeum to oppose him and people to flock to Zeum. 

If it's just a delaying device so that the No-God can come close, well, okay; seems like they could have spun it up on the other side of the tower and been fine, or done it inside the giant horn of doom.

Furthermore, open question: what if Mimara isn't there? Do the DunSult simply break the hologram at the perfect dramatic moment, or does it fail because of the Judging Eye? 

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17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So keep in mind that the Inchoroi before the Consult had no idea about the No-God. Per TUC, Sil had to haul up the Inverse Fire and get it working again. Chances are most of the Inchoroi had never used any of this stuff or thought about it. They are soldier ants whose queen has died. 

I think they did. There is a comment from Bakker that during the Cuno icnhoroi wars the Inchoroi "filled the wells of the aborted with their own dead". I think many speculated at the time that they were experimenting on how to graft sorcery on themselves, but I think this was their first attempt to resurrect the No-God on Earwa, something they had done many times at the instruction of the Ark on other planets. And Aurang says in PoN that Shae resurrected the Inchoroi's "aborted designs".

I think it's farfetched to think that Shae pulled the carapace from somewhere inside the ark and understood it's function if the Inchoroi didn't know anything.

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Just now, Hello World said:

I think they did. There is a comment from Bakker that during the Cuno icnhoroi wars the Inchoroi "filled the wells of the aborted with their own dead". I think many speculated at the time that they were experimenting on how to graft sorcery on themselves, but I think this was their first attempt to resurrect the No-God on Earwa, something they had done many times at the instruction of the Ark on other planets. And Aurang says in PoN that Shae resurrected the Inchoroi's "aborted designs".

I think it's farfetched to think that Shae pulled the carapace from somewhere inside the ark and understood it's function if the Inchoroi didn't know anything.

That's fair, though it doesn't change a whole lot; it just means the Inchoroi couldn't figure it out at all, and had only read the mythical man-month and simply threw more bodies at it until it worked.

I'm starting to like my idea of the No-God and how it was designed more and more. Causing massive war is messy and potentially problematic; creating a tailored nanovirus that kills all but 144k of the population and renders those who are left sterile and immortal is a way to ensure the maximally acceptable population on each planet while ensuring it doesn't ever reach the next threshold. Simply plug in an appropriate biological sample which redirects soul traffic, analyze the result, tailor a specific plague that will obliterate a majority of the population, and move on. It's one of the very few explanations I've seen that ties the Womb Plague, Indigo Plague and No-God together.

11 minutes ago, .H. said:

Cloaking the Carapace in the hologram also gives it time to exit the Horn without being regarded as suspicious/blasted with sorcery (it lacks Chorae to protect itself).

Once outside the Horn, it can turn on the Whirlwind and go to town, like it did.

But it took a LONG time to get to turning on the Whirlwind. And, ya know, it flies; it can easily exit the horn and go the other way for a while. It has no mark, so it's not like sorcerers are going to go kill it. And once it has the whirlwind going on, there's really apparently nothing anyone can do. 

Though  I'm really surprised and confused that no sorcerer took a shot at it; my guess is now that the chorae in the carapace don't actually matter, it is immune to sorcery naturally, and that sometime in the next series some hotshot sorcerer will say 'aha, we don't need the spear because we have the lance of fucking things up', attempt to fuck things up, and then fail and not understand why. 

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4 hours ago, WalterX said:

This explains why Kellhus strives against the Inchoroi, even though he knows that their project must, according to destiny, succeed.  He is hoping something will rewrite destiny (He never realizes that the thing doing this, protecting him from the WLW is his own son, the No-God), to move the world from a state where they were always going to win to one where they were always going to lose.

This also explains why Kellhus has feelings for Esmenet, which has little other narrative purpose. In a world where Kelmomas is fated to become No-God, something has to protect him from his father, and that thing is Kellhus staying his hand for Esmi's sake.

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33 minutes ago, Damelon said:

...to crush their spirit, faith before the DunSult attacks. Yeah, that is a reasonable explanation of this manipulation device.

Man, 10 pages of TUC discussion in no time. I am *so* looking forward to Bakker AMA, and wondering how many of his answers will contain a RAFO/WAFO...

In interviews over the years, at Pat's site for instance, he did warn beforehand that not all metaphysics would be clarified and presented on a silver platter. As they tie in so deeply into the plot, that's quite the conundrum.

 

He's doing another AMA? When? I thought he just did one...

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So I'm going to assume that the people reading this series outside of the forums (here or TSA) are mostly unaware that there is supposed to be a third series to finish off the story (at least in theory). Because I'm seeing more of the same reactions on Goodreads. I think there were a lot of readers who were confused at the end of PoN thinking that that was the end of the whole series even though the Consult hadn't shown up yet. I wonder if this is a failure on the part of the publisher or Bakker...

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4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

So I'm going to assume that the people reading this series outside of the forums (here or TSA) are mostly unaware that there is supposed to be a third series to finish off the story (at least in theory). Because I'm seeing more of the same reactions on Goodreads. I think there were a lot of readers who were confused at the end of PoN thinking that that was the end of the whole series even though the Consult hadn't shown up yet. I wonder if this is a failure on the part of the publisher or Bakker...

I mean...I honestly thought this up until I finished, and I'm probably one of the less casual fans, in the grand scheme of things.

The fact that you had to qualify with "in theory" also seems damning to me.

Between the "we have to split it to do it right" saga and the 'thrilling conclusion of the Aspect Emperor" series I'm not surprised people thought it was he end and am willing to split the blame between them.

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