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Sly Wren

Crackpot: Oberyn, Oberon, and a Changeling Child

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CRACKPOT: OBERYN, OBERON, AND A CHANGELING CHILD

Very Short Version:

  • Shakespeare’s Oberon is driven by his fight over a changeling. He uses poisons/potions to steal the changeling child and thus gain his revenge.
  • G.R.R. Martin’s Oberyn is also known for tricking and poisoning people—though he’s much more deadly than Oberon. Given his very famous name—is Oberyn also involved with a stolen, changeling child?
  • Oberyn has sufficient motive to seek revenge against the Lannisters and Baratheons. Stealing “Dany” and inserting her as a replacement for Rhaella’s (potentially) dead child could bolster Viserys’ ability to take back the throne. 
  • And there’s precedent in the novels for stolen, hidden, children. And children passed of as other than they are.
  • This may help explain why on earth Oberyn has that name.
  • And why the Daynes don’t attend the Martells’ big feast in Dance.

Caveat: This crackpot works under the premise that it’s plausible that:

  • Current Dany is not the original child that Rhaella Targaryen died giving birth to.
  • Dany could be Ashara’s daughter, most likely via Rhaegar or Aerys.

Oberon and Oberyn

  • I can’t find anyone who’s gone into this name connection and its potential implications, or any discussion beyond simply noting the name connection. If you have gone into the name connection, let me know, and I’ll amend the OP.
  • But Oberon is a very well-known character in a very well-known play.
  • PLUS: Oberyn Martell is listed in the Appendices for both Game and Clash. But his name only appears in the text of the novels starting in Storm. Thus: Martin chose this name WELL ahead of Oberyn’s appearance or even mention in the novels.
  • And Martin has clearly used external name references for his characters. IE:  
    • Arthur Dayne and his magic sword—echoes King Arthur and Excalibur.
    • Ashara echoes “Astarte,” a fertility goddess tied to Evening/Morningstar.
  • Martin uses names for fun—but he makes meaningful references, too.
  • So what does Oberon do in A Midsummer Night's Dream?

Changeling is Key

  • While Puck’s mischief gets the audience’s focus, that mischief is driven by Oberon’s feud with Titania over a changeling child.
  • Oberon wants the child as his henchman. So he seeks revenge on Titania for denying him the child. It’s all about power and vengeance.
  • Titania wants the boy because he’s the child of her recently deceased devotee—an emotional attachment. But she also wants the child as her follower.
  • Furthermore, Oberon drugs/poisons people to get what he wants—he distracts flower-drugged Titania with Bottom while Oberon steals her changeling child.
  • Granted, Oberon’s “poison” is more silly than deadly. And Oberon and Titania reunite at the end. But still: poisons/potions, revenge plots—and a stolen child.

 How might this potentially tie to Oberyn?

  • Oberyn is NOT over what happened to Elia and her children.
  • He collects his bastard children into a weird cadre one could argue is a dark version of Oberon’s fairy band. (Tyene could arguably be a really scary version of Puck).
  • He’s definitely known for poisoning people for revenge.
  • And he’s willing to take his kids from their mothers to raise as his followers—not caring much for the mothers’ needs (except perhaps for Ellaria’s).
  • And (per @Voice) we see Oberon’s interaction with “changeling” baby Tyrion: http://thelasthearth.com/post/56604/thread

What’s missing? A changeling. So could Dany be a stolen changeling?

  • Markg171 does a great job on evidence for Dany’s potentially not being Dany. http://thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany
  • @Victarion Chainbreaker, @Rippounet , and others have made strong arguments on the Lemongate issue.
  • Victarion Chainbreaker and others have been arguing for a while that Dany is Ashara’s child by Rhaegar.
  • But Oberyn? It’s nowhere near a sure thing, but that name seems like a marker.
  • And then there’s the poison—Dany’s “Darry” dies in a way that sounds like it could be poison. And the novels repeatedly connect sweet smells with death, corruption, and even with poison.
    • She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. [snip] He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. Game, Dany I
    • "Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her [snip]. "The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." Feast, Cat of the Canals
  • If Dany’s protector was poisoned and she was taken, that could fit.

Precedent in the novels for powerful men who strong-arm vulnerable women into giving up their children:

  • Jon with Gilly’s baby. Jon does this to save Mance’s child—the same Mance with enough Rhaegar imagery around him to inspire “Mance is Rhaegar” theories.
  • Oberyn with Obara and her mother.
  • Possibly baby Aegon—If fAegon ends up being real, I can see Elia’s not being remotely happy that they didn’t also save Rhaenys. A Westerosi Sophie’s Choice.
  • Ashara is a noblewoman—a far cry from Obara’s mother or Gilly. But if “Dany” is Ashara’s by either Rhaegar or Aerys and the Martells figured this out—they’d have hefty leverage against the Daynes to get them to do what they want. Anyone finds out that Ashara has Rhaegar or Aerys’ kid—big danger for the Daynes.
  • Or—Oberyn could have flat out stolen the child, with the Daynes only finding out too late.
  • And, given Jon’s role with Gilly’s baby and Ned’s fierce protectiveness towards Dany—Ned could have been involved in initially strong-arming Dany away from her mother and into the care of “Darry.” Or simply aware of it after the fact.
  • And there’s definitely a recurring element of “changeling” children in the novels: Cersei passes her kids off as Robert’s; Baelish claims Sansa as his own and renames her after his mother; even how Cat hates Jon and how Robert was willing to see Rhaegar’s murdered children as monsters—Martin’s spent a lot of time showing us changelings in novels with an “Oberon” character.

CONTINUED IN JUST ONE MORE POST

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Where are the Daynes?

  • House Dayne of Starfall is not at Doran’s big feast in Dance. Hotah mentions no one—no Allyria; no “A-named” second cousin like Alloysius or Aardvark; no mention of a steward or representative; no mention of Starfall. No mention of this famous, ancient house at a big feast where they toast the “Baratheon” king and celebrate the death of Gregor Clegane.
  • Why aren’t they there? Darkstar’s just been blamed for maiming Myrcella. And Darkstar’s a Dayne—of High Hermitage, but still a Dayne. The Daynes of Starfall thus have strong motive to make a show of loyalty and civility—basically saying, “Oy! Listen up! Our idiot cousin does NOT speak for us!”
  • Hotah makes no mention of their absence—so there’s no narrative focus to draw a circle for readers around Dayne-ish non-attendance. Which means this could be nothing. Still—really, really seems like a Dayne representative should be there.
  • Much of the (f)Dany and “Dany the Dayne” speculation gets bogged down in questions of why a Dayne-ish “Dany” would leave Dorne, Home of the Happy Bastards. But if she’s a stolen changeling, that could potentially explain why a (hypothetically) fake Dany might end up with Viserys. Same goes if she was coerced away from her mother.
  • And why the Daynes of Starfall are absent from Doran’s “Look! It’s Gregor’s Head!” party—complete with sugar skulls (worst Christmas candy ever).

Pacts and Leverage?

  • Oberyn ostensibly signed the pact with Willem Darry—whether or not that pact is “real,”
  • Oberyn could still have been involved in a plot—supplying a replacement Dany.
    • "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, [snip] n return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen." Dance, Dany VII

Bottom Line:

  • As stated above, this crackpot works under the assumption that it’s plausible that “Dany” isn’t the original child Rhaella Targaryen gave birth to on Dragonstone. If nothing else, Rhaella’s prior “child survival rate” wasn’t great:
    • 50% of her prior pregnancies ended in miscarriage or stillbirth (poor woman).
  • 30% of her prior pregnancies resulted in a child that lived less than a year (again—this fictional woman’s life makes me actually pity her).
Only 20% of her prior pregnancies resulted in a child that survived past the first year to adulthood—Rhaegar and Viserys. Throw in the inconsistencies in Dany’s past, the fact that Martin took the time from the start to include the inconsistencies at all, and some of the other issues others raised long before me—is all of this definitive proof that current Dany is not Rhaella’s original child? Absolutely not. But is all of this good reason to keep options of “Changeling Dany” open? Yes. Especially given the prevalence of changelings in the novels and Oberyn’s name.

Odd Potential Addendum: In Shakespeare, when Oberon and Titania fight, they are so powerful that their arguments affect the weather. Perhaps Oberyn’s actions could be tied to the Westerosi weather issues. . . at least tangentially.

TITANIA: These are the forgeries of jealousy.

And never, since the middle summer’s spring,

Met we on hill, in dale, forest, or mead,

By pavèd fountain, or by rushy brook,

Or in the beachèd margent of the sea,

To dance our ringlets to the whistling wind,

But with thy brawls thou hast disturbed our sport.

Therefore the winds, piping to us in vain,

As in revenge, have sucked up from the sea

Contagious fogs, which falling in the land

Have every pelting river made so proud

That they have overborne their continents. 2.1.66-77

 

TITANIA: And thorough this distemperature we see

The seasons alter: hoary-headed frosts

Fall in the fresh lap of the crimson rose,

And on old Hiems' thin and icy crown

An odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds

Is, as in mockery, set. The spring, the summer,

The childing autumn, angry winter change

Their wonted liveries, and the mazèd world,

By their increase, now knows not which is which.

And this same progeny of evils comes

From our debate, from our dissension.

We are their parents and original. 2.1. 91-102

THE END

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Interesting connections, thanks for sharing. Indeed, if Dany isn't Daenerys, it follows that Oberyn and Doran both have had an important role in the swap.
Martin teases the reader by using repeated references to Dany's past. A the very least he is giving us hints that there is something to be found there. There is very little to say it's about Dany's parentage, so the Oberyn-Oberon connection is a nice little find.

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@Sly Wren,

 

There are references to every other of Shakespeare's most famous plays, so I would say the connection is very sound for all the reason you mentioned.  I went and brushed up on the play so I would know a little of what I was talking about, and the first thing that I thought was the ToJ fight. It was most likely over a swapped out child, or maybe it didn't happen at all and was just a dream Ned has like the events of the play are believed to be by the characters, who knows.  Jon's death is pulled straight from Julius Caesar so why not have his birth be a dream world fight over who gets to take him as a ward in some sort of Midsummer Night's Dream thing.  There seems to be a pattern of men fighting over a woman in life, and then fighting over a child born from the woman after their death in some sort of way.  Robert and Rhaegars fight over Lyanna seems to be based on Paris and Menelaus fighting over Helen.  I think the the ToJ fight is like the second round of that conflict fought in the dream world known as the weirnet.  Littlefinger is the other good example of this idea.  He fights Brandon over Catelyn and loses.  Then he turns into a tricky greenseer stand-in who gets revenge on Brandon, although it is Ned who has her now so he is the one Littlefinger gets killed although I cannot rule out that he also got Brandon to go to King's Landing to die somehow.  Littlefinger winds up claiming the child of the woman he wanted in Sansa instead.  The first round fight is something like the Iliad and repeats itself over and over.  Until now I had no idea what the second round fight could have been based on, but I think that Midsummer Night's Dream may be it.  

 

About Oberyn specifically, you pointed out that when he gets into an argument it changes the weather.  Oberyn's fight against the Mountain is one of @LmL's hammer of the waters events that did the season ruining.  Now, does his name also mean he is involved with trying to claim a child to use for his own reasons, it certainly makes it seem more likely.  Those damn lemons have to mean something don't they?  I don't think GRRM does red herrings (could be wrong), except maybe Ashara.  She dances with Oberyn, Connington, Ned (after Brandon asked her for him), and Howland seemed to be infatuated with her.  She dies but no body is found and has a miscarriage that we have no reason to need to know about.  She is like a Rorschach test in human form.  She even has both first men and Valyrian looks so she can have children that look like almost any of the children with unknown parents.  Want her to be Jon's mom with Ned or Brandon? They danced so she probably is.  Want her to be fAegon's mom and also be Septa Lemore?  She danced with Connington and her body was never found so she must be.  Meera's mom?  Why not?  She makes my head hurt so I just stay away although it is totally possible that she is someone's mommy and Dany would be high on that list.  If she is who we are told she is I still don't think it rules out a Dayne swapped baby.  Lots of badass KG have children either do or are rumored to have affairs with woman, usually the queen.  Arthur could have a kid out there.  Darkstar may be someone more important than we know.  Like you said it is still impossible to nail this down but all the parallels you found are way too many to be accidental. Good stuff.  

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I'm leaning towards this theory as well.  I think the issue most people have a hard time getting their heads around is Viserys knowledge or lack of knowledge that Dany isn't his actual sister.  I think for the theory to work, Viserys has to be complicit in the deception.  But it makes sense if you think about it.  Let's assume that Viserys is the only child who makes it out of Dragonstone alive, or is the only child that survives the trip to Braavos.  He is placed under the Sealord's protection most probably to be used as a pawn for Braavos' own plots.  Braavos finds a partner in crime with Dorne.  Doran, Oberyn, Darry, and the Sealord sign the marriage pact, basicallly binding Braavos and Dorne together.  The next part of the plan is to give Viserys a sister to use as a coin to help bring in a future partner.  Oberyn plucks a likely candidate from the Greenblood or the Water Gardens and the Targaryen looking girl is taken to Braavos at a very young age.  (I think Dany's big house with the red door, and the carved wooden decorations and the lemon tree out front, may have actually been one of the houseboats on the Greenblood).  

Viserys agrees to the deception because it is explained that she will be used to help him acquire an army so that he can take back Westeros.  Viserys is tasked with teaching her about a false origin and her Targaryen "family".  Darry is perhaps poisoned since Dorne isn't sure that they can fully trust him.  Then perhaps something happens to the current Sealord, which is why his First Sword later ends up in Westeros.  Jon Arryn confronts Doran about the rumors of their interest in Viserys, and Viserys and his "sister" are suddenly without backers.  Viserys drags his "sister" around trying to use her as a bargaining chip to obtain a new alliance.  Finally, they are taken in by Illyrio who arranges Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo, doubtless to further his own plans for Young Griff.

This whole ruse is later paralleled a good bit, with King's Landing's creation of a false Arya to give to the Boltons.

The other argument, I've heard against this is Dany's ability to hatch the dragons.  Surely, it has been argued that this proves she is a Targaryen. Actually I would argue that it proves she probably is not the daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  The Targaryen family at the time of the Rebellion had been unable to hatch dragons since Aegon III (well over a hundred years).  Since Aegon III, their bloodlines had branched off into a number of different families.  Dragon riders and hatchers married into House Velaryon.  Aegon III daughters gave birth to Houses Blackfyre, Plumm (another changeling example), and Longwaters.  Basically dragon riding/hatching bloodlines branched off significantly.  My guess is that Dany's birth brought these bloodlines back together in a way that could not have happened if she was the daughter of both Aerys and Rahella.

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm leaning towards this theory as well.  I think the issue most people have a hard time getting their heads around is Viserys knowledge or lack of knowledge that Dany isn't his actual sister.  I think for the theory to work, Viserys has to be complicit in the deception.  But it makes sense if you think about it.  Let's assume that Viserys is the only child who makes it out of Dragonstone alive, or is the only child that survives the trip to Braavos.  He is placed under the Sealord's protection most probably to be used as a pawn for Braavos' own plots.  Braavos finds a partner in crime with Dorne.  Doran, Oberyn, Darry, and the Sealord sign the marriage pact, basicallly binding Braavos and Dorne together.  The next part of the plan is to give Viserys a sister to use as a coin to help bring in a future partner.  Oberyn plucks a likely candidate from the Greenblood or the Water Gardens and the Targaryen looking girl is taken to Braavos at a very young age.  (I think Dany's big house with the red door, and the carved wooden decorations and the lemon tree out front, may have actually been one of the houseboats on the Greenblood).  

Viserys agrees to the deception because it is explained that she will be used to help him acquire an army so that he can take back Westeros.  Viserys is tasked with teaching her about a false origin and her Targaryen "family".  Darry is perhaps poisoned since Dorne isn't sure that they can fully trust him.  Then perhaps something happens to the current Sealord, which is why his First Sword later ends up in Westeros.  Jon Arryn confronts Doran about the rumors of their interest in Viserys, and Viserys and his "sister" are suddenly without backers.  Viserys drags his "sister" around trying to use her as a bargaining chip to obtain a new alliance.  Finally, they are taken in by Illyrio who arranges Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo, doubtless to further his own plans for Young Griff.

This whole ruse is later paralleled a good bit, with King's Landing's creation of a false Arya to give to the Boltons.

The other argument, I've heard against this is Dany's ability to hatch the dragons.  Surely, it has been argued that this proves she is a Targaryen. Actually I would argue that it proves she probably is not the daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  The Targaryen family at the time of the Rebellion had been unable to hatch dragons since Aegon III (well over a hundred years).  Since Aegon III, their bloodlines had branched off into a number of different families.  Dragon riders and hatchers married into House Velaryon.  Aegon III daughters gave birth to Houses Blackfyre, Plumm (another changeling example), and Longwaters.  Basically dragon riding/hatching bloodlines branched off significantly.  My guess is that Dany's birth brought these bloodlines back together in a way that could not have happened if she was the daughter of both Aerys and Rahella.

 

I like the Dany/fArya parallel and the way you laid it all out could work.  Maybe a couple more parallels, Robert dies and his "first sword" Barristan goes to Dany like how after the sea lord dies, Syrio goes to Arya.   Those two parallel each other well with Syrio's teaching Arya how to pay attention and Barristan thinking about how for every hour of fighting he spends ten thousand watching for threats.  Hotah is similar as a top fighter, watcher, and serving far from home.  If anything happens to Doran maybe watching where he goes will teach us something.  Maybe Jorah is one of these "first sword" types too.  He serves Dany in a land far from home when he has nowhere to go like the others and his name is even spelled close enough to Hotah that my phone autocorrected to it when I typed the other's name just now.  I am posting from my phone way too much.  

 

I have never seen the idea that Dany represents the branches of House Targ that split after the Dance coming back together.  I basically accept it as canon that Viserion came from Elaena's white and gold egg.  Penrose is another one that got children from her.  That's a lot of family that would need to come back together somehow, but it may not need to be all of them.

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1 hour ago, Unchained said:

 

I like the Dany/fArya parallel and the way you laid it all out could work.  Maybe a couple more parallels, Robert dies and his "first sword" Barristan goes to Dany like how after the sea lord dies, Syrio goes to Arya.   Those two parallel each other well with Syrio's teaching Arya how to pay attention and Barristan thinking about how for every hour of fighting he spends ten thousand watching for threats.  Hotah is similar as a top fighter, watcher, and serving far from home.  If anything happens to Doran maybe watching where he goes will teach us something.  Maybe Jorah is one of these "first sword" types too.  He serves Dany in a land far from home when he has nowhere to go like the others and his name is even spelled close enough to Hotah that my phone autocorrected to it when I typed the other's name just now.  I am posting from my phone way too much.  

 

I have never seen the idea that Dany represents the branches of House Targ that split after the Dance coming back together.  I basically accept it as canon that Viserion came from Elaena's white and gold egg.  Penrose is another one that got children from her.  That's a lot of family that would need to come back together somehow, but it may not need to be all of them.

We can't discount the possibility that there may have been an intentional attempt through marriage (or otherwise) to bring these bloodlines back together.  Perhaps another example of this genetic engineering is Gerold Dayne.  This may also be the reason that Oberyn gathered up his many Sand Snakes, they may all be attempts to bring various Targaryen offshoots back together.  (We know the Martells have a Targaryen bloodline, and if the rumors are true about Aerys bedding Rahella's ladies in waiting, their bloodline may only be one generation removed).

If Dany's House with the Red Door is a houseboat on the Greenblood, it may parallel Young Griff's training also being on a houseboat.  The movers and shakers behind the scenes may be intentionally fostering certain former Targaryen bloodlines.

ETA:  Yes I also agree that you would not need to bring all of the bloodlines back together.  My sneaking suspicion is that the maternal dragonriding/dragon hatching bloodline split off from the paternal dragonriding/hatching bloodline back around the time of the Dance.  It may be sufficient to bring these bloodlines back together.  Which may explain why the Targaryens of old felt it necessary to marry sister to brother.  They couldn't afford the two bloodlines to split off.

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41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We can't discount the possibility that there may have been an intentional attempt through marriage (or otherwise) to bring these bloodlines back together.  Perhaps another example of this genetic engineering is Gerold Dayne.  This may also be the reason that Oberyn gathered up his many Sand Snakes, they may all be attempts to bring various Targaryen offshoots back together.  (We know the Martells have a Targaryen bloodline, and if the rumors are true about Aerys bedding Rahella's ladies in waiting, their bloodline may only be one generation removed).

If Dany's House with the Red Door is a houseboat on the Greenblood, it may parallel Young Griff's training also being on a houseboat.  The movers and shakers behind the scenes may be intentionally fostering certain Targaryen bloodlines.

Doran or Oberyn being a secret Targ is a new one to me, but it is a possibility.  Oberyn possibly knows quite a bit about magic and dragon blood depending on what if any relationship he has with Marwyn.  Genetic engineering is everywhere in the story.  Drogo wants to make the stallion who mounts the world with Dany.  He is supposed to grow up and lead the army that gathers in the usually mostly empty capital city.  Asshai almost certainly did some genetic engineering in the past and it is a mostly empty city.  Winterfell may be another one with that winter village around it that is empty until winter like they are going to need an army then.  Your idea about Dany being from the green blood is interesting.  When Darkstar and co. encounter Hotah and Arys Oakheart is killed there is a line about "the red blood mixing with the green".  Even his name sounds like a mixture of trees and dragons because Aerys is a Targ name.  Bloodraven I feel absolutely confident is a genetic engineer.  It cannot be a coincidence that under his watch Blackwood and Dayne genes entered the Targ royal line before beginning to inbreed again because a woods witch said to.  That is one reason I have doubted Dany being someone else in the past.  How much more special can you get than having those three families in your genes, other than maybe Jon who also has Stark.  Maybe the point is to get different split lines back together like you said.  I read a theory once that Howland's mysterious wife is an unknown descendant of the prince of dragonflies and the Reedlings are dragon blooded.  That would be another case of green and red blood mixing.  If Bran eating Jojen's blood is magic then Jojen must have special blood of some kind.  

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16 minutes ago, Unchained said:

Doran or Oberyn being a secret Targ is a new one to me, but it is a possibility.  Oberyn possibly knows quite a bit about magic and dragon blood depending on what if any relationship he has with Marwyn.  Genetic engineering is everywhere in the story.  Drogo wants to make the stallion who mounts the world with Dany.  He is supposed to grow up and lead the army that gathers in the usually mostly empty capital city.  Asshai almost certainly did some genetic engineering in the past and it is a mostly empty city.  Winterfell may be another one with that winter village around it that is empty until winter like they are going to need an army then.  Your idea about Dany being from the green blood is interesting.  When Darkstar and co. encounter Hotah and Arys Oakheart is killed there is a line about "the red blood mixing with the green".  Even his name sounds like a mixture of trees and dragons because Aerys is a Targ name.  Bloodraven I feel absolutely confident is a genetic engineer.  It cannot be a coincidence that under his watch Blackwood and Dayne genes entered the Targ royal line before beginning to inbreed again because a woods witch said to.  That is one reason I have doubted Dany being someone else in the past.  How much more special can you get than having those three families in your genes, other than maybe Jon who also has Stark.  Maybe the point is to get different split lines back together like you said.  I read a theory once that Howland's mysterious wife is an unknown descendant of the prince of dragonflies and the Reedlings are dragon blooded.  That would be another case of green and red blood mixing.  If Bran eating Jojen's blood is magic then Jojen must have special blood of some kind.  

I think GRRM's "blacksmiths" may be these manipulators of bloodlines, their "swords" being family lines and the "pointy end" being the end result of generations of interbreedings and marriages.  And yes I agree Bloodraven is a good example of such a genetic blacksmith.

However, I'm not sure Bloodraven's goal is to hatch dragons or create dragon riders.  Otherwise he may have backed the Blackfyres, who are arguably a purer strain of Targaryen than Daeron and especially Daeron's Martell children.  Bloodraven's alleged interest in Bran's birth may be evidence that he was more interested in greenseers than dragonriders.

As for Dany's "special bloodlines", if she were a "true" Targaryen, then her bloodlines would be the same as Rhaegar, Viserys, Aerys, Rahella, Jahaerys, and Jahaerys wife.  My guess is Dany is however, a throwback to the blood of Aegon the Conqueror.

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On July 4, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Rippounet said:

Interesting connections, thanks for sharing. Indeed, if Dany isn't Daenerys, it follows that Oberyn and Doran both have had an important role in the swap.

1. My apologies for the delay.

2. On the bolded: YUP! Especially since Martin chose Oberyn's name and put it in the Appendices 2 full books before mentioning Oberyn in the novels.

3. I flounder a bit on what exactly Doran is up to--I sincerely doubt he's told Arianne everything. The idea that he's got other options out there has to be on the table.

On July 4, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Rippounet said:

Martin teases the reader by using repeated references to Dany's past. A the very least he is giving us hints that there is something to be found there.

:agree: He does this right from the start--bothers to put inconsistencies in her story when he doesn't need to.

On July 4, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Rippounet said:

There is very little to say it's about Dany's parentage, so the Oberyn-Oberon connection is a nice little find.

On the bolded--maybe--but it does seem tied to Dany's identity. Especially seeing herself as "the last Dragon" and Quaithe's "remember who you are." At least one option on "remember who you are" has to be "you aren't who you think you are."

And :cheers: re: Oberon.

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On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

@Sly Wren,

There are references to every other of Shakespeare's most famous plays, so I would say the connection is very sound for all the reason you mentioned.  I went and brushed up on the play so I would know a little of what I was talking about, and the first thing that I thought was the ToJ fight. It was most likely over a swapped out child, or maybe it didn't happen at all and was just a dream Ned has like the events of the play are believed to be by the characters, who knows.  Jon's death is pulled straight from Julius Caesar so why not have his birth be a dream world fight over who gets to take him as a ward in some sort of Midsummer Night's Dream thing.

1. My apologies for the delay in responding.

2. :cheers:

3. I wasn't thinking of the TOJ fight, but I'm liking the potentials. Though I'm wondering if the TOJ fight applies less to what happens in Midsummer. Oberon doesn't fight for the changeling. He doses Titania and steals the baby while she's Bottom-struck. Sneaky, underhanded, clever--not knights having a straightforward fight.

4. Plus--Jon is a changeling in a number of senses--but he's not a "swapped out child." Or are you thinking he was actually swapped for another baby? If that's where you're going, who are you thinking he was swapped for?

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

There seems to be a pattern of men fighting over a woman in life, and then fighting over a child born from the woman after their death in some sort of way.  Robert and Rhaegars fight over Lyanna seems to be based on Paris and Menelaus fighting over Helen.  I think the the ToJ fight is like the second round of that conflict fought in the dream world known as the weirnet.  Littlefinger is the other good example of this idea.  He fights Brandon over Catelyn and loses.  Then he turns into a tricky greenseer stand-in who gets revenge on Brandon, although it is Ned who has her now so he is the one Littlefinger gets killed although I cannot rule out that he also got Brandon to go to King's Landing to die somehow.  Littlefinger winds up claiming the child of the woman he wanted in Sansa instead.  The first round fight is something like the Iliad and repeats itself over and over.  Until now I had no idea what the second round fight could have been based on, but I think that Midsummer Night's Dream may be it.

1. :agree:on the fighting over the beloved--Shakespeare likes that trope from classical literature. And Dany's first POV in Game makes it clear that that's the story she's been told re: Robert and Rhaegar.

2. I like the Littlefinger connection--though I doubt he was in either physical condition or influential condition to manipulate Brandon. Rather, I think that was a Bael-ish like figure: Tywin. Who was Baelish before Baelish. And Tywin may have had an assist from Jon Arryn.

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

About Oberyn specifically, you pointed out that when he gets into an argument it changes the weather.  Oberyn's fight against the Mountain is one of @LmL's hammer of the waters events that did the season ruining.  Now, does his name also mean he is involved with trying to claim a child to use for his own reasons, it certainly makes it seem more likely.  Those damn lemons have to mean something don't they?

1. I had not thought of the connection to the fight with the Mountain--and am now feeling stupid.:dunce: I have no idea how to pin down whether Oberyn's actions are tied to the weather issues specifically. Or if this is the long-view idea that Dorne and the North are "Fire and Ice" and thus innately tied to the weather issues.

But the image of the fight with the Mountain--yes. Oberyn may be more specifically involved than I thought in the weather issues. I need to give this a think. . . . .:read:

2. And I agree on the lemons--Martin keeps bringing them up only in specific contexts. Gotta be a reason.

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

I don't think GRRM does red herrings (could be wrong), except maybe Ashara.  She dances with Oberyn, Connington, Ned (after Brandon asked her for him), and Howland seemed to be infatuated with her.  She dies but no body is found and has a miscarriage that we have no reason to need to know about.  She is like a Rorschach test in human form.  She even has both first men and Valyrian looks so she can have children that look like almost any of the children with unknown parents.  Want her to be Jon's mom with Ned or Brandon? They danced so she probably is.  Want her to be fAegon's mom and also be Septa Lemore?  She danced with Connington and her body was never found so she must be.  Meera's mom?  Why not?  She makes my head hurt so I just stay away although it is totally possible that she is someone's mommy and Dany would be high on that list.

HA! Ashara is like a gorgeous purple inkblot for interp. And Martin just keeps bringing her out for no clear reason yet.

I currently lean towards her being Dany's mother for a number of reasons--though I'm likely to change my mind at any moment. Barristan's bringing her up as looking like Dany comes out of the blue. Apropos of absolutely nothing. Same with Barristers' gossip revision: Cersei and Cat tell us that the rumor is Ashara had a boy named Jon Snow. Then, in Dance, we get a new rumor that the baby was a girl. Why the shift? Why bother? No idea yet--but the "Ashara is Dany's mother" take on the inkblot has to be open.

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

If she is who we are told she is I still don't think it rules out a Dayne swapped baby.  Lots of badass KG have children either do or are rumored to have affairs with woman, usually the queen.

Good point.

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

Arthur could have a kid out there.

YUP!

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

Darkstar may be someone more important than we know.

Darkstar's gotta mean something. That name alone has echoes of the Fallen Night's King.

On July 5, 2017 at 0:01 PM, Unchained said:

Like you said it is still impossible to nail this down but all the parallels you found are way too many to be accidental. Good stuff.  

:cheers: and amen.

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On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I'm leaning towards this theory as well.  I think the issue most people have a hard time getting their heads around is Viserys knowledge or lack of knowledge that Dany isn't his actual sister.  I think for the theory to work, Viserys has to be complicit in the deception.

:agree:Something's up with Viserys' creepy need to make Dany act like a princess. If this baby swap happened, really think Viserys knew.

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

But it makes sense if you think about it.  Let's assume that Viserys is the only child who makes it out of Dragonstone alive, or is the only child that survives the trip to Braavos.

Or only one to survive the first year of Rhaella's daughter's birth--the death could have happened a number of places.

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

He is placed under the Sealord's protection most probably to be used as a pawn for Braavos' own plots.  Braavos finds a partner in crime with Dorne.  Doran, Oberyn, Darry, and the Sealord sign the marriage pact, basicallly binding Braavos and Dorne together.

Yes--the Braavos part is very interesting and frustrating to me. Oberyn's being there is easy--Martin's made a point of making Oberyn a world traveller. 

But why would any Braavosi, let alone the Sealord, ally with the Dragons? I can see why Oberyn would want to use the kids against the Lannisters and Robert. But Tycho Nestoris is NOT subtle on the anti-dragon stuff. If they really were in the Sealord's palace, what was the guy up to? 

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The next part of the plan is to give Viserys a sister to use as a coin to help bring in a future partner.  Oberyn plucks a likely candidate from the Greenblood or the Water Gardens and the Targaryen looking girl is taken to Braavos at a very young age.  (I think Dany's big house with the red door, and the carved wooden decorations and the lemon tree out front, may have actually been one of the houseboats on the Greenblood). 

1. I agree that current Dany seems likely to have lived on the Greenblood at some point.

2. But I really doubt she's just a kid who looks right--if she's not Aerys and Rhaella's last child, she's Rhaegar's. The symbolism around her; the vision of herself in Rhaegar's armor; the dragons; the Undying--Dany's a dragon. And I think she's the daughter of the Last Dragon.

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Viserys agrees to the deception because it is explained that she will be used to help him acquire an army so that he can take back Westeros.  Viserys is tasked with teaching her about a false origin and her Targaryen "family".

Yup. And Viserys struggles to keep his temper and insecurities about this kid in check.

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Darry is perhaps poisoned since Dorne isn't sure that they can fully trust him.

OOOH! I hadn't thought of this angle--so, you're thinking Oberyn poisoned her when they lost control of her to the Dothraki? Or are you thinking they poisoned Dany earlier than that? Not sure I'm following you here--any chance you'd be willing to explain?

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

This whole ruse is later paralleled a good bit, with King's Landing's creation of a false Arya to give to the Boltons.

NICE! I hadn't thought of this parallel. I like it. 

On July 6, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The other argument, I've heard against this is Dany's ability to hatch the dragons.  Surely, it has been argued that this proves she is a Targaryen. Actually I would argue that it proves she probably is not the daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  The Targaryen family at the time of the Rebellion had been unable to hatch dragons since Aegon III (well over a hundred years).  Since Aegon III, their bloodlines had branched off into a number of different families.  Dragon riders and hatchers married into House Velaryon.  Aegon III daughters gave birth to Houses Blackfyre, Plumm (another changeling example), and Longwaters.  Basically dragon riding/hatching bloodlines branched off significantly.  My guess is that Dany's birth brought these bloodlines back together in a way that could not have happened if she was the daughter of both Aerys and Rahella.

:agree: It's one of the reasons (aside from Barristan's Ashara musings and Quaithe) that I think Dany is part Dayne. Rhaegar seems to think he was the necessary dragon-producing ingredient. But only Dany pulls this off. 

The dragons died even with the Targs in power and the Velaryons out there. I think some other magic is in play. Maybe that's about bloodline, maybe it's about timing. 

But given Dany's seeing herself in Rhaegar's armor--I really think she's a Targ at least half. And that it's very, very likely she's Rhaegar's kid.

A kid Oberyn may have little sympathy for--since she's not Elia's. And we know Oberyn will use/manipulate/shape his own daughters to further his plans. 

Back in a few hours to get caught up on the rest of y'all's posts.

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13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Yes--the Braavos part is very interesting and frustrating to me. Oberyn's being there is easy--Martin's made a point of making Oberyn a world traveller. 

But why would any Braavosi, let alone the Sealord, ally with the Dragons? I can see why Oberyn would want to use the kids against the Lannisters and Robert. But Tycho Nestoris is NOT subtle on the anti-dragon stuff. If they really were in the Sealord's palace, what was the guy up to? .

My sneaking suspicion is that no one really wants to "ally" themselves with Viserys.  I think both Dorne and Braavos might have been merely using him as a cyvasse piece.  I think even Illyrio never really intended Viserys to sit on the Iron Throne.  If you recall during Dany's "wedding shower" with Drogo, it was held in a manse with a giant mural of the Doom of Valyria.  

 

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

.OOOH! I hadn't thought of this angle--so, you're thinking Oberyn poisoned her when they lost control of her to the Dothraki? Or are you thinking they poisoned Dany earlier than that? Not sure I'm following you here--any chance you'd be willing to explain?

Not Dany, Darry.

 

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

:agree: It's one of the reasons (aside from Barristan's Ashara musings and Quaithe) that I think Dany is part Dayne. Rhaegar seems to think he was the necessary dragon-producing ingredient. But only Dany pulls this off. 

The dragons died even with the Targs in power and the Velaryons out there. I think some other magic is in play. Maybe that's about bloodline, maybe it's about timing. 

But given Dany's seeing herself in Rhaegar's armor--I really think she's a Targ at least half. And that it's very, very likely she's Rhaegar's kid.

A kid Oberyn may have little sympathy for--since she's not Elia's. And we know Oberyn will use/manipulate/shape his own daughters to further his plans. 

I dont' disagree that Dany might be Aerys' daughter.  If so, I think it's at least possible that it wasn't Rahella that Aerys raped when he burned his Hand.  

My crackpot thought is that Ashara might be a witch, and there may be a history of maternal "witches" in House Dayne.  Take Robb and Jeyne Westerling as an example.  Jeyne's grandmother is reputed to be a witch from Essos.  There is a thought that she may have captured Robb through some magic she may have learned from her grandmother.

We're then given a little nugget of info (I completely forget from where), that one of Aegon the V's sisters tried to slip him a love potion.  If so, then she probably learned this from her own mother or grandmother, and we know that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne.  Now we still haven't been told who Aegon V's sisters married, despite being given the Targaryen family tree.  So I think GRRM is purposely keeping this info under wraps.  It makes sense that at least one of the girl may have married back into their mother's family's, the Daynes.  If it was Aegon's sister who was dabbling in love potions, she may have kept this maternal witch line in House Dayne.

Now fast forward to the Harrenhal tourney.  Ashara Dayne seems to be the center of attention (until Rhaegar crowns Lyanna).  Barristan still thinks about her haunting purple eyes.  When Howland tells his children the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Ashara Dayne's laughing purple eyes seem to also seems to capture his attention.  Perhaps she is using a magical enhancement.

So if she's a witch, then the possibility of a glamor exists.  And perhaps it wasn't Rahella who was brought to Aerys' bedchamber, but maybe it was Ashara under a glamor.  It might explain the discrepancy behind Jaime's recollection of Rahella leaving King's Landing by carriage during the day, while Viserys recalls a midnight escape to Dragonstone with a black sailed ship.  

This scenario would also give us the exact inverse of the King Arthur conception myth.  King Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, magically disguised himself as Igraine's husband and conceived Arthur.  Here, Ashara would have magically disguised herself as Aerys's wife, and conceived Dany.

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26 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if she's a witch, then the possibility of a glamor exists.  And perhaps it wasn't Rahella who was brought to Aerys' bedchamber, but maybe it was Ashara under a glamor.  It might explain the discrepancy behind Jaime's recollection of Rahella leaving King's Landing by carriage during the day, while Viserys recalls a midnight escape to Dragonstone with a black sailed ship.  

This scenario would also give us the exact inverse of the King Arthur conception myth.  King Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, magically disguised himself as Igraine's husband and conceived Arthur.  Here, Ashara would have magically disguised herself as Aerys's wife, and conceived Dany.

 

I feel very confident that the events around the pre-Robert's Rebellion events in King's Landing are Arthurian in nature.  Joyous Guard and the ToJ as well as a bunch of other parallels.  Rhaegar's rubies scream glamor to me. No one could hit him at the Harrenhall tourney.  Maybe a glamor can alter your position slightly in addition to your appearance.  It would not take much to make a good jouster unbeatable.  

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10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My sneaking suspicion is that no one really wants to "ally" themselves with Viserys.  I think both Dorne and Braavos might have been merely using him as a cyvasse piece.  I think even Illyrio never really intended Viserys to sit on the Iron Throne.  If you recall during Dany's "wedding shower" with Drogo, it was held in a manse with a giant mural of the Doom of Valyria.  

 

Not Dany, Darry.

 

I dont' disagree that Dany might be Aerys' daughter.  If so, I think it's at least possible that it wasn't Rahella that Aerys raped when he burned his Hand.  

My crackpot thought is that Ashara might be a witch, and there may be a history of maternal "witches" in House Dayne.  Take Robb and Jeyne Westerling as an example.  Jeyne's grandmother is reputed to be a witch from Essos.  There is a thought that she may have captured Robb through some magic she may have learned from her grandmother.

We're then given a little nugget of info (I completely forget from where), that one of Aegon the V's sisters tried to slip him a love potion.  If so, then she probably learned this from her own mother or grandmother, and we know that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne.  Now we still haven't been told who Aegon V's sisters married, despite being given the Targaryen family tree.  So I think GRRM is purposely keeping this info under wraps.  It makes sense that at least one of the girl may have married back into their mother's family's, the Daynes.  If it was Aegon's sister who was dabbling in love potions, she may have kept this maternal witch line in House Dayne.

Now fast forward to the Harrenhal tourney.  Ashara Dayne seems to be the center of attention (until Rhaegar crowns Lyanna).  Barristan still thinks about her haunting purple eyes.  When Howland tells his children the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Ashara Dayne's laughing purple eyes seem to also seems to capture his attention.  Perhaps she is using a magical enhancement.

So if she's a witch, then the possibility of a glamor exists.  And perhaps it wasn't Rahella who was brought to Aerys' bedchamber, but maybe it was Ashara under a glamor.  It might explain the discrepancy behind Jaime's recollection of Rahella leaving King's Landing by carriage during the day, while Viserys recalls a midnight escape to Dragonstone with a black sailed ship.  

This scenario would also give us the exact inverse of the King Arthur conception myth.  King Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, magically disguised himself as Igraine's husband and conceived Arthur.  Here, Ashara would have magically disguised herself as Aerys's wife, and conceived Dany.

That is a pretty good point, but it would go against the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy; she prophesied that a "very important person" would be born from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Rhaegar and Rhaenys are dead without a doubt, Aegon would also be dead if the one we know of is a pretender, Viserys died without leaving any offspring (that we know of) and if Daenerys is Aerys' daughter by Ashara, then that doesn't fit the prophecy, as the "important person" has be the child of both Aerys and Rhaella, and not just one of them.

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On 7/7/2017 at 11:15 PM, Sly Wren said:

Something's up with Viserys' creepy need to make Dany act like a princess. If this baby swap happened, really think Viserys knew.

Viserys wouldn't necessarily have to know the truth. He could have been told he had a sister who'd been in hiding and didn't know her own identity. He seemed to believed it when beating Dany's Targaryen identity into her:

Quote

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

He was a fool about that, and so much else, Dany thought.

 

 

Also, the Targaryens lost the ability to hatch dragons after Aegon III, which is possibly due to Viserys II being an imposter and fathering all of Aegon III's children:

Quote

The realm had thought Viserys slain at the Battle of the Gullet... But Viserys was eventually recovered from Lys by Oakenfist, where he had been held in secret by merchant princes who thought to profit from his ransom or his death... and for the rest of his days he was the only person Aegon ever fully trusted.

 

Quote

[Aegon III] likewise came to dislike being touched—even by the hand of his beautiful queen. Even after she had flowered, he was long in calling her to his bed...but ultimately their marriage was blessed with two sons and three daughters.

Any branches that came after him are unimportant in this case (Blackfyre, Penrose, Plumm, Longwaters.)

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On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

My sneaking suspicion is that no one really wants to "ally" themselves with Viserys.  I think both Dorne and Braavos might have been merely using him as a cyvasse piece.  I think even Illyrio never really intended Viserys to sit on the Iron Throne.  If you recall during Dany's "wedding shower" with Drogo, it was held in a manse with a giant mural of the Doom of Valyria.  

Apologies for the delay--the forum kept throwing me off.

This I could absolutely buy--though sending Dany out with those mind-numbingly expensive dragon eggs still seems like an odd move if you don't expect some return on that sizable investment.

And without question, Dorne has ulterior motives. 

The Braavosi. . . . we need more data. But if they were trying to undermine Westeros--why do it with a dragon? Or are you thinking they wanted to use Viserys for something else?

On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Not Dany, Darry.

Huh. Well, I'm a world-class illiterate idiot. Good to know.

On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I dont' disagree that Dany might be Aerys' daughter.  If so, I think it's at least possible that it wasn't Rahella that Aerys raped when he burned his Hand.  

My crackpot thought is that Ashara might be a witch, and there may be a history of maternal "witches" in House Dayne.  Take Robb and Jeyne Westerling as an example.  Jeyne's grandmother is reputed to be a witch from Essos.  There is a thought that she may have captured Robb through some magic she may have learned from her grandmother.

I could buy some of this--especially since I'm pretty sold on Ashara's being Quaithe. No idea if there is a history of witches in House Dayne. But the idea that women and men can become powerful via magics--we've seen that with Mel--another shadow binder who entrances a powerful part Targ man into her prophecy driven crusade. And seen power in MMD, even in Thoros. 

On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Now fast forward to the Harrenhal tourney.  Ashara Dayne seems to be the center of attention (until Rhaegar crowns Lyanna).  Barristan still thinks about her haunting purple eyes.  When Howland tells his children the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Ashara Dayne's laughing purple eyes seem to also seems to capture his attention.  Perhaps she is using a magical enhancement.

Or--like Mel, she could just be really gorgeous and driven. I'm not ruling out magic to get attention, but seems like she may not need it. If she has magic like Mel, she could use it for other things. Mel's gorgeousness seems to get attention without any need for potions.

On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So if she's a witch, then the possibility of a glamor exists.  And perhaps it wasn't Rahella who was brought to Aerys' bedchamber, but maybe it was Ashara under a glamor.  It might explain the discrepancy behind Jaime's recollection of Rahella leaving King's Landing by carriage during the day, while Viserys recalls a midnight escape to Dragonstone with a black sailed ship.  

Could be. And Dany's backstory has to be a mess for a reason. Martin had her first POV chapter full of stuff that later ended up being shown as off.

But would Aerys need a gorgeous girl to tempt him via glamour? Seems like she could just . . . be gorgeous. 

On July 7, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

This scenario would also give us the exact inverse of the King Arthur conception myth.  King Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon, magically disguised himself as Igraine's husband and conceived Arthur.  Here, Ashara would have magically disguised herself as Aerys's wife, and conceived Dany.

I like this potential. . . . just not sure she'd need the glamour to get this.

On July 8, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

That is a pretty good point, but it would go against the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy; she prophesied that a "very important person" would be born from Aerys' and Rhaella's line. Rhaegar and Rhaenys are dead without a doubt, Aegon would also be dead if the one we know of is a pretender, Viserys died without leaving any offspring (that we know of) and if Daenerys is Aerys' daughter by Ashara, then that doesn't fit the prophecy, as the "important person" has be the child of both Aerys and Rhaella, and not just one of them.

1. I agree that Aerys and Ashara wouldn't fulfill that prophecy.

2. But any child or grandchildren of Aerys and Rhaella would be of the line, right? So, if Dany is Rhaegar's child by any woman. . . that should get it done, no?

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On July 7, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Unchained said:

I feel very confident that the events around the pre-Robert's Rebellion events in King's Landing are Arthurian in nature.  Joyous Guard and the ToJ as well as a bunch of other parallels.  Rhaegar's rubies scream glamor to me. No one could hit him at the Harrenhall tourney.  Maybe a glamor can alter your position slightly in addition to your appearance.  It would not take much to make a good jouster unbeatable.  

I do like this idea--though do we have evidence that glamours help people fight well? Or changes their personal abilities in any way?

Mance was always a good fighter--so when he takes on Jon as Rattleshirt, it's not surprising that he'd still be a good fighter.

Unless you are thinking that Rhaegar wasn't the one who fought at Harrenhal?

On July 12, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Viserys wouldn't necessarily have to know the truth. He could have been told he had a sister who'd been in hiding and didn't know her own identity. He seemed to believed it when beating Dany's Targaryen identity into her:

Could be--though that quote could also work if he's afraid she'll spill the beans.

Plus, if she's Aerys' by another mother, or (as I think is very likely) Rhaegar and Ashara's--she is a Targaryen. She is the "blood of the dragon." Just not his sister. And, since Dany agree with Jorah in Game that Rhaegar, NOT Viserys, is a dragon, if she is Rhaegar's kid, that statement by Viserys has some fun irony.

One quick thing--in the quote you gave:

On July 12, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

That green sail--I actually searched for it. There are lots of mentions of colored sails in the novels. But green? There's Dany's memory and exactly one other mention: 

Quote

"Lysa Arryn's dead," Lord Godric said, "murdered by some singer. Lord Littlefinger rules the Vale now. Where are the pirates?" When Davos did not answer, he rapped his spoon against the table. "The Lyseni. Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister, and before him the Flints from Widow's Watch. Orange sails, and green, and pink. Salladhor Saan. Where is he?" Dance, Davos I

Godric knows that these colors for sails mean not just Lyseni, by Salladhor. The Same Salladhor who tells the Lightbringer story in Clash

Nowhere near enough info yet--but I'm thinking Salladhor may know something about Dany's past

On July 12, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Also, the Targaryens lost the ability to hatch dragons after Aegon III, which is possibly due to Viserys II being an imposter and fathering all of Aegon III's children:

Any branches that came after him are unimportant in this case (Blackfyre, Penrose, Plumm, Longwaters.)

Not sure I'm following your train of thought here--are you thinking that the Targs would need a new influx of magical blood to be able to hatch dragons?

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Lots to chew on here- good food for thought, @Sly Wren!

On 7/6/2017 at 3:06 PM, Unchained said:

  It cannot be a coincidence that under his watch Blackwood and Dayne genes entered the Targ royal line before beginning to inbreed again because a woods witch said to.  That is one reason I have doubted Dany being someone else in the past.  How much more special can you get than having those three families in your genes, other than maybe Jon who also has Stark. 

 With you on this- in fact, I have been working out a similar line of thought regarding Summerhall, the Rebellion, and House Dayne.

On 7/7/2017 at 10:01 PM, Frey family reunion said:

We're then given a little nugget of info (I completely forget from where), that one of Aegon the V's sisters tried to slip him a love potion.  If so, then she probably learned this from her own mother or grandmother, and we know that Aegon V's mother was a Dayne.  Now we still haven't been told who Aegon V's sisters married, despite being given the Targaryen family tree.  So I think GRRM is purposely keeping this info under wraps.  It makes sense that at least one of the girl may have married back into their mother's family's, the Daynes.  If it was Aegon's sister who was dabbling in love potions, she may have kept this maternal witch line in House Dayne

We have been having some real mind- bind stuff lately...I was thinking this very thing with regard to the FD essay and the dark sorcery that seems to be woven into the Dayne line - did it come from Rhae?    

However, I re-read Aemon's ramblings while he lay dying on the ship, and changed my mind because the context of the mention of his sisters leads me to believe that they - and their young children - are long dead.  My guess is Summerhall.    There is still the possibility that the Dayne husband and perhaps an older child survived, and that child sired the current house, but there's no concrete proof for that.  I love the idea though, and it totally works.

 

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21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Apologies for the delay--the forum kept throwing me off.

This I could absolutely buy--though sending Dany out with those mind-numbingly expensive dragon eggs still seems like an odd move if you don't expect some return on that sizable investment.

Actually, Preston Jacobs has a pretty decent explanation for Dany's journey with the eggs.  He based it on this exchange with Euron and Victarion:

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The Crow's eye sipped from his silver cup.  "I once held a dragon's egg in this hand, brother.  This Myrish wizard swore he could hatch it if I gave him a year and all the gold that he required.  When I grew bored with his excuses, I slew him.  As he watched his entrails sliding through his fingers he said, 'But it has not been a year.'"  He laughed.

ETA: (sorry some text seemed to be lost in the posting process).  Anyway, the thought being that it takes time for a "dragon hatcher" to fertilize the egg.  Perhaps close to a year, if the Myrish wizard is to be believed.  We know that during Dany's wedding feast there was a red priest as big as Illyrio in attendance (Moqorro?).  Perhaps Illyrio learns from one of his red priest "friend" that Dany is to be the mother of dragons.  Illyrio not having the luxury of keeping Dany in his manse for a year, decides to make the eggs a present to her, and he also sends Jorah along to keep an eye on them.  (In fact it is Jorah who stops Viserys from stealing one of the eggs).  I think Jorah may have been tasked of bringing the eggs to Asshai (where he keeps trying to convince Dany to go, up until her dragons hatch) where he may have other "friends" who would try and hatch them.

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The Braavosi. . . . we need more data. But if they were trying to undermine Westeros--why do it with a dragon? Or are you thinking they wanted to use Viserys for something else?

I agree we definitely need more data with Braavos.  But I think Viserys value may lie in any influence his existence may have in Westeros.  In other words, use him as a Catspaw or figurehead, to cause some of the Targaryen friendly houses to rise up against King's Landing.  It's a repeating theme, pit two competing enemies against each other, to weaken them both, and take advantage of the ensuing chaos.  This is what I think Varys had in mind with Viserys.  Let Viserys and whatever army he can cobble together (in this case Drogo's horde) invade King's Landing, and then swoop in after the two armies have weakened each other. 

After the death of Viserys, I'm a tad suspicious that Young Griff and the Golden Company may be plan B.  This quote in particular makes me raise an eyebrow:

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"...Master of coin, though..." The fat man peeled another egg.  "I am fond of coins.  Is there any sound as sweet as the clink of gold on gold?"

Perhaps what Illyrio is really referring to is the sound of the Golden Company and the Gold Cloaks "clinking" together.

 

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But would Aerys need a gorgeous girl to tempt him via glamour? Seems like she could just . . . be gorgeous. 

I like this potential. . . . just not sure she'd need the glamour to get this.

1. I agree that Aerys and Ashara wouldn't fulfill that prophecy.

2. But any child or grandchildren of Aerys and Rhaella would be of the line, right? So, if Dany is Rhaegar's child by any woman. . . that should get it done, no?

You wouldn't think, that you would need a glamour would you?  But then in the World Book we're given this:

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Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon.  On his return, his Grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rahella.  If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.

(Ok, now get ready to really travel down a rabbit hole):  As for fulfillment of the prophecy, I wonder if it's going to be so straightforward as a child or grandchild of Aerys and Rahella fulfilling it.  After all George by his own admission enjoys prophecies being fulfilled in unexpected ways.

We're starting to be given a lot of info that Aerys and Rahella had a loveless marriage.  (much like a few other loveless marriages, Robert and Cersei, and Jon Arryn and Lysa come to mind).  In fact they were forcibly joined in marriage solely to fulfill the prophecy.  What if, Rahella decided to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans, and pulled a Cersei?  In other words, she aborted every time Aerys conceived a child with her.  And all of her children are in fact bastards with other men.  Could this knowledge be perhaps why Rhaegar at some point stopped believing that he was the Prince that was Promised?

So what is Rhaegar, hell bent on the prophecy being fulfilled, left to do at this point?  If Rhaegar is in fact secretly a bastard child of Rahella, then he is left with only one option, conceive a child with a bastard of Aerys.  Thus the child will be from the line of both Rahella and Aerys, just not in the traditional sense. 

So Rhaegar is married to Elia, who's unnamed mother is both the Princess of Dorne and a Lady in Waiting to Queen Rahella.  And we know of Rahella's suspicions of Aerys and her Ladies in Waiting:

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Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores."  (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from her Grace's service, nor was she to be the last).

And interestingly enough, we learn that the Princess of Dorne seemed unable to successfully have any children with her unnamed husband after Doran's birth.  In fact, Doran seemed to give up on the prospect of any siblings until Elia's birth, which was then followed soon thereafter by Oberyn's birth.  Also, interestingly enough despite Aerys apparent insistence of a suitably Valyrian bride for Rhaegar, he consents to Rhaegar's marriage with Elia, despite his apparent disgust that their first child is so Dornish.  So why consent?  Perhaps Aerys may be aware that Elia is in fact his child with the Princess of Dorne.  Making her "close enough" in Aerys mind.

So Rhaegar, the bastard child of Rahella, conceives a child with Elia, the bastard child of Aerys, and ta da: the  Prince that was Promised.

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