Crackpot: Oberyn, Oberon, and a Changeling Child

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Not sure I'm following your train of thought here--are you thinking that the Targs would need a new influx of magical blood to be able to hatch dragons?

That's the idea. The ability to hatch dragons may have been preserved in houses that the Targs intermarried with before Aegon III. As far as we know, these are the Arryns, the Velaryons, and the Hightowers. The Velaryons is an especially interesting case, as George took care to make sure the Velaryon that Aegon the III married had no dragon-hatching ancestors, and neither did Alyn of Hull and thus the Longwaters, but House Velaryon after that point did.

[Unchained]

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I do like this idea--though do we have evidence that glamours help people fight well? Or changes their personal abilities in any way?

Mance was always a good fighter--so when he takes on Jon as Rattleshirt, it's not surprising that he'd still be a good fighter.

 

I don't think they make you a better fighter necessarily, but some optical confusion might make you harder to hit, and in a joust that little bit would be everything especially for someone like Rhaegar who only would have needed a little help to win.  Instead of an advanced glamor that makes you look like someone else, I am picturing a very basic version that alters the light in any little way at all.  

 

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Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

 

He beats Selmy next.  For some reason no lance could touch him that day. We learn this right after his armor is mentioned.  I can't think of another time that people missing in a joust occurs.  Usually every bout is a hit, but someone hits harder or sits better and stays on better.  It seems odd.  We have reason to suspect that the whole tourney was something set up by Rhaegar to rally support against his father, but Varys foiled his plan by telling Aerys causing him to attend.  Not sure if it is true, but assuming it is, it becomes an almost exact parallel to the tourney at Whitewalls with Rhaegar as the would be usurper Daemon.  Daemon cheats by having people lose on purpose so he can win.  That may mean Rhaegar cheats too.  It is the only tourney he ever wins and it is the most heavily filled with great jousters.  You mentioned how much Rhaegar parallels Mance, who wears a glamor after a certain point, so maybe that is how Rhaegar cheats.  I am really spitballing here, but maybe after plan A fails because Aerys is there, he comes up with a plan B that involves crowning Lyanna.  I have no idea what that plan is, but maybe there was one.  Could be that he was subtly hinting to his dad who the knight of the laughing tree was, hoping Aerys would make enemies with the Starks, probably dragging Robert with them, giving Rhaegar a potential ally or two against him.  Then when they rebelled, they ruined his plan by naming Robert king because the story somehow became that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her.  That's my tinfoil for the day at least.  

 

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"I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?"  Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him.

 

After Robert hits Cersei, he feels bad about it.  He asks how you fight someone you can't hit?  Then he immediately thinks of Rhaegar.  Obviously he did hit Rhaegar that day, but still.  There's someone not being able to be hit mentioned and Rhaegar comes up next.  

[Vaedys Targaryen]

16 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

<snip>

1. I agree that Aerys and Ashara wouldn't fulfill that prophecy.

2. But any child or grandchildren of Aerys and Rhaella would be of the line, right? So, if Dany is Rhaegar's child by any woman. . . that should get it done, no?

Yes, actually.

I suppose that's where the R+A=D theory comes from.

[Weirwood Ghost]

One of the things about the prophecy/prophecies...it's not definitive. It could mean after the dust has settled, after all have fought and died, she/he fulfills said prophecy.

The world starts turning again, the wheel of life starts turns again, and the whole shebang is set in motion, repeating the circle of life... Another Dream of Spring

[Sly Wren]

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

ETA: (sorry some text seemed to be lost in the posting process).  Anyway, the thought being that it takes time for a "dragon hatcher" to fertilize the egg.  Perhaps close to a year, if the Myrish wizard is to be believed.  We know that during Dany's wedding feast there was a red priest as big as Illyrio in attendance (Moqorro?).  Perhaps Illyrio learns from one of his red priest "friend" that Dany is to be the mother of dragons.  Illyrio not having the luxury of keeping Dany in his manse for a year, decides to make the eggs a present to her, and he also sends Jorah along to keep an eye on them.  (In fact it is Jorah who stops Viserys from stealing one of the eggs).  I think Jorah may have been tasked of bringing the eggs to Asshai (where he keeps trying to convince Dany to go, up until her dragons hatch) where he may have other "friends" who would try and hatch them.

 

1. My apologies for the massive delay--I somehow missed this notification--and then have had to be away for awhile. Very sorry.

2. On the above--maybe. Still, it seems like a big risk given how pricey those eggs are. Martin has come up with more convoluted explanations than the above--so it could work.

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I agree we definitely need more data with Braavos.  But I think Viserys value may lie in any influence his existence may have in Westeros.  In other words, use him as a Catspaw or figurehead, to cause some of the Targaryen friendly houses to rise up against King's Landing.  It's a repeating theme, pit two competing enemies against each other, to weaken them both, and take advantage of the ensuing chaos.  This is what I think Varys had in mind with Viserys.  Let Viserys and whatever army he can cobble together (in this case Drogo's horde) invade King's Landing, and then swoop in after the two armies have weakened each other.

Workable--and kinda Bael-ish like. And not unlike what I think Tywin might have been ding with Robert's Rebellion.

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

You wouldn't think, that you would need a glamour would you?  But then in the World Book we're given this:

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Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon.  On his return, his Grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rahella.  If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.

An excellent point. I stand corrected.

Still, If Ashara was having an affair with anyone, my money is definitely on Rhaegar--the stupid prince.

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He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

 

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

What if, Rahella decided to throw a monkey wrench in everyone's plans, and pulled a Cersei?  In other words, she aborted every time Aerys conceived a child with her.  And all of her children are in fact bastards with other men.  Could this knowledge be perhaps why Rhaegar at some point stopped believing that he was the Prince that was Promised?

So what is Rhaegar, hell bent on the prophecy being fulfilled, left to do at this point?  If Rhaegar is in fact secretly a bastard child of Rahella, then he is left with only one option, conceive a child with a bastard of Aerys.  Thus the child will be from the line of both Rahella and Aerys, just not in the traditional sense. 

This could be very interesting--problem is, I'm struggling to see any indication of it. Rhaegar and Viserys look Targaryen--whereas Cersei and Jaime's kids don't look like Robert--that's part of the big tell.

Any indication Rhaegar and Viserys aren't Aerys'?

And Rhaegar's "There must be one more" really seems to indicate he thinks it's all about him and his babies.

On July 14, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So Rhaegar, the bastard child of Rahella, conceives a child with Elia, the bastard child of Aerys, and ta da: the  Prince that was Promised.

Is there any indication Elia's mother had any contact with Aerys?

[Sly Wren]

On July 14, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

That's the idea. The ability to hatch dragons may have been preserved in houses that the Targs intermarried with before Aegon III. As far as we know, these are the Arryns, the Velaryons, and the Hightowers. The Velaryons is an especially interesting case, as George took care to make sure the Velaryon that Aegon the III married had no dragon-hatching ancestors, and neither did Alyn of Hull and thus the Longwaters, but House Velaryon after that point did.

1. Very sorry for the massive delay.

2. Very workable. 

3. Given Dany's vision of the people with the white swords right before she wakes her dragons, the idea that Dayne-ish blood could be needed seems workable.

4. Though I'm also thinking she just got the whole "moment" right--a one-off. A Fallen Star King Drogo, the raising of dragons--not unlike the Others (the ice dragons). Seems like it's also very much a confluence of events that lets Dany do all of this.

On July 14, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Unchained said:

I don't think they make you a better fighter necessarily, but some optical confusion might make you harder to hit, and in a joust that little bit would be everything especially for someone like Rhaegar who only would have needed a little help to win.  Instead of an advanced glamor that makes you look like someone else, I am picturing a very basic version that alters the light in any little way at all.  

Fair point. though this line:

On July 14, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Unchained said:

it seemed no lance could touch him.

It would also fit if Rhaegar had convinced people to throw the tourney to him.

After all, Barristan says:

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If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Dance, The Kingbreaker

The bolded could mean a lot of things. But there's nothing innately "unknightly" in failing in a good fight.

One could argue there's something very unknightly about throwing a fight.

On July 14, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Unchained said:

That may mean Rhaegar cheats too.  It is the only tourney he ever wins and it is the most heavily filled with great jousters.  You mentioned how much Rhaegar parallels Mance, who wears a glamor after a certain point, so maybe that is how Rhaegar cheats.

1. Agreed on the cheating.

2. Though given Rhaegar's and Mance's positions, they could easily be cheating in very different ways.

On July 14, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Unchained said:

have no idea what that plan is, but maybe there was one.  Could be that he was subtly hinting to his dad who the knight of the laughing tree was, hoping Aerys would make enemies with the Starks, probably dragging Robert with them, giving Rhaegar a potential ally or two against him.  Then when they rebelled, they ruined his plan by naming Robert king because the story somehow became that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her.  That's my tinfoil for the day at least.  

I agree that Rhaegar was trying to get Daddy off of the throne via rebellion--though I think Tywin is the one who used the Knight of the Laughing Trees actions against the Starks. And that Rhaegar did get stuck in the plot when the rumor "got out" that he'd stolen Lyanna--though I think the "rumor" was started by Tywin.

That said, your tinfoil could work, too.