Maggy the Frog and Melara

[Quoth the raven,]

Can you think of a reason(s) why Maggy didn't try to help Melara?  The old lady seemed to take perverse pleasure in revealing the girls their fortunes.  It seemed that way to me.

[aryagonnakill#2]

She did, she told her Cersei would kill her.  She just didn't listen.  Cersei's was the only breath she was close enough to smell.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

She did, she told her Cersei would kill her.  She just didn't listen.  Cersei's was the only breath she was close enough to smell.

Indeed.

AFfC, Cersei VIII

“The girl with the golden curls put her hands upon her hips. “Give us our foretelling, or I’ll go to my lord father and have you whipped for insolence.”
“Please,” begged Melara. “Just tell us our futures, then we’ll go.”
“Some are here who have no futures,” Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer. “Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood."

[snip]

“I get three questions too,” her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. “Will I marry Jaime?” she blurted out.
You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin.
“Not Jaime, nor any other man,” said Maggy. “Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.”

 

 

[The Commentator]

17 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

She did, she told her Cersei would kill her.  She just didn't listen.  Cersei's was the only breath she was close enough to smell.

Yes.  And I suspect Mag was a little annoyed with the pushy girls and she decided not to stick her business beyond what Cersei forced her to do.  Best to not anger the lioness. 

[zandru]

It wasn't Maggie's responsibility, or place, to try to rush in to rescue any of these rude, high-handed highborne girls who she didn't even know. She was an elderly woods witch, whose presence on Lannister land was tolerated, at best. Why should she stick her neck out?

(She was also Jeyne Westerling's grandmother, apparently. Wonder how this will play out in subsequent books.)

[kissdbyfire]

39 minutes ago, zandru said:

It wasn't Maggie's responsibility, or place, to try to rush in to rescue any of these rude, high-handed highborne girls who she didn't even know. She was an elderly woods witch, whose presence on Lannister land was tolerated, at best. Why should she stick her neck out?

(She was also Jeyne Westerling's grandmother, apparently. Wonder how this will play out in subsequent books.)

Well, Jeyne's mum told Jaime she'd been giving Jeyne an abortive concoction. And there's tinfoil around claiming she was instead giving her fertility meds instead and that = Jeyne is pregnant. 

ETA: Either abortive or something to prevent a pregnancy, can't recall which. 

[zandru]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there's tinfoil around claiming she was instead giving her fertility meds instead and that = Jeyne is pregnant. 

But this would make no sense, as Lady Westerling had an agreement with Tywin Lannister to make sure there was no heir from Robb and Jeyne's marriage. She also seemed triumphant and even vindictive, whereas Jeyne was devastated and crying. In our time, learning of pregnancy is often devastating, but if Jeyne dreaded and feared it, why would she and Robb then have been so enthusiastic and copulating like minks every free minute before he and his army left Riverrun?

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

But this would make no sense, as Lady Westerling had an agreement with Tywin Lannister to make sure there was no heir from Robb and Jeyne's marriage. She also seemed triumphant and even vindictive, whereas Jeyne was devastated and crying. In our time, learning of pregnancy is often devastating, but if Jeyne dreaded and feared it, why would she and Robb then have been so enthusiastic and copulating like minks every free minute before he and his army left Riverrun?

I did say it was tinfoil, didn't I?

And it probably started b/c of the discrepancy in the description we get of Jeyne from Cat and Jaime, where Cat thinks she has good (for childbearing) hips and Jaime thinks she has narrow hips. Martin confirmed (SSM) it was just a mistake, like the gender of that horse.  

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/4/2017 at 6:39 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Can you think of a reason(s) why Maggy didn't try to help Melara?  The old lady seemed to take perverse pleasure in revealing the girls their fortunes.  It seemed that way to me.

Because you cannot interfere with fate. It was going to happen one way or another, the same way that when posters here always start threads about "what would happen if X actually did this instead?" We would be reading an entirely different story (butterfly in to dragons, and all).

[foxberlin]

On 5. Juli 2017 at 0:44 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

She did, she told her Cersei would kill her.  She just didn't listen.  Cersei's was the only breath she was close enough to smell.

Maggie would've been close enough to be smelled, too. I always suspected that Maggie killed Melara herself to start Cersei's descent into madness... in a very literal way.

With her friend dead Cersei is forced to believe in prophecy and would need to question her innocence concerning Melara's accidental death.

[The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne]

Melara is a secret Targaryen. It is known.

[Unknownfinger]

On 7/5/2017 at 8:18 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I did say it was tinfoil, didn't I?

And it probably started b/c of the discrepancy in the description we get of Jeyne from Cat and Jaime, where Cat thinks she has good (for childbearing) hips and Jaime thinks she has narrow hips. Martin confirmed (SSM) it was just a mistake, like the gender of that horse.  

In defense of the the Tin Foil Hat Brigade on this I think the reason the idea persists of a pregnant Jeyne as it fits with what we know of who is going to be in the prologue to TWOW and who the likely POV is going to be. That is, TWOW is most likely going open with a BwoB/LSH raid on the caravan heading to Casterly Rock. My guess is that Jeyne is killed because LSH (rightly) suspects House Westerling had a hand in the Red Wedding. It would make thematic and narrative sense if in doing so LSH, not knowing or not believing that Jeyne is pregnant with Robb's child, ensures that Jon inherits Winterfell and the title of KitN which Cat was understandably anxious about while she was alive. "Revenge is bad kids"

 

All that being said the chances of Jeyne being pregnant are between slim and none.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

52 minutes ago, Unknownfinger said:

In defense of the the Tin Foil Hat Brigade on this I think the reason the idea persists of a pregnant Jeyne as it fits with what we know of who is going to be in the prologue to TWOW and who the likely POV is going to be. That is, TWOW is most likely going open with a BwoB/LSH raid on the caravan heading to Casterly Rock. My guess is that Jeyne is killed because LSH (rightly) suspects House Westerling had a hand in the Red Wedding. It would make thematic and narrative sense if in doing so LSH, not knowing or not believing that Jeyne is pregnant with Robb's child, ensures that Jon inherits Winterfell and the title of KitN which Cat was understandably anxious about while she was alive. "Revenge is bad kids"

 

All that being said the chances of Jeyne being pregnant are between slim and none.

 

 

That could be a very interesting development. But I agree, I think the chances of something like this happening are practically nonexistent.  

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Maegy's words are tricky, the prophecy could be that Cercei was going to kill her or that Melora's doom was so close that it could not be avoided .

[StarkofWinterfell]

Why did Cersei kill Melara?

[Unknownfinger]

41 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Why did Cersei kill Melara?

There are those who think it was because she heard the prophecy but I think it was because of Jaime. Melara asks if she will marry Jaime and I think that was the end for her. Both because of Cersei's jealousy and snobbishness. That is, Melara died for presuming she was worthy of marriage with a Lannister. House Heatherspoon were just some nobody landed knights to Cersei so who in the seven hells did Melara think she was? 

[foxberlin]

How would Cersei have done it, though?

[The_Red_Viper_of_Dorne]

6 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

There are those who think it was because she heard the prophecy but I think it was because of Jaime. Melara asks if she will marry Jaime and I think that was the end for her. Both because of Cersei's jealousy and snobbishness. That is, Melara died for presuming she was worthy of marriage with a Lannister. House Heatherspoon were just some nobody landed knights to Cersei so who in the seven hells did Melara think she was? 

Melara was a Targaryen bastard.

[Cridefea]

I think she tries, but she talk in a cryptic way because she is a Maegi that's how she talks. And I also think she knows she can't stop it anyway.

8 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

There are those who think it was because she heard the prophecy but I think it was because of Jaime. Melara asks if she will marry Jaime and I think that was the end for her. Both because of Cersei's jealousy and snobbishness. That is, Melara died for presuming she was worthy of marriage with a Lannister. House Heatherspoon were just some nobody landed knights to Cersei so who in the seven hells did Melara think she was? 

I think it's because of Jaime.

8 hours ago, foxberlin said:

How would Cersei have done it, though?

I think she could have pushed her. We know she was there to watch while Melara was dying. It could be one of the GRRM's three-fold Revelation strategy @Traverys. The subtle hint is "your death is here tonight etc", the more blatant hint is when Cersei thinks about how Melara screamed and probably we'll see the revelation in TWoW.

[ravenous reader]

51 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I think she tries, but she talk in a cryptic way because she is a Maegi that's how she talks. And I also think she knows she can't stop it anyway.

I think it's because of Jaime.

Of course it was about Jaime ('jealousy is the green-eyed monster').  It's always about Jaime; don't you know, all the ladies are 'in Harrenhal with him..?!' 

Quote

I think she could have pushed her. We know she was there to watch while Melara was dying. It could be one of the GRRM's three-fold Revelation strategy @Traverys. The subtle hint is "your death is here tonight etc", the more blatant hint is when Cersei thinks about how Melara screamed and probably we'll see the revelation in TWoW.

Likely she pushed her into the well when she was least expecting it, the same way Littlefinger caught Lysa, who like Melara implicitly trusted her murderer, unawares.  There's a parallel between pushing someone into a well and through the Moon Door, into the 'bloody blue' of the water and sky respectively!

Regarding hints; there's also this one:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei II

She walked through mud and dung, bleeding, goosefleshed, hobbling. All around her was a babble of sound. "My wife has sweeter teats than those," a man shouted. A teamster cursed as the Poor Fellows ordered his wagon out of the way. "Shame, shame, shame on the sinner," chanted the septas. "Look at this one," a whore called from a brothel window, lifting her skirts to the men below, "it's not had half as many cocks up it as hers." Bells were ringing, ringing, ringing. "That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum." This is my penance, Cersei told herself. I have sinned most grievously, this is my atonement. It will be over soon, it will be behind me, then I can forget.

The queen began to see familiar faces. A bald man with bushy side-whiskers frowned down from a window with her father's frown, and for an instant lookedso much like Lord Tywin that she stumbled. A young girl sat beneath a fountain, drenched in spray, and stared at her with Melara Hetherspoon's accusing eyes. She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf. Every child squirming through the crowd became her brother Tyrion, jeering at her as he had jeered when Joffrey died. And there was Joff as well, her son, her firstborn, her beautiful bright boy with his golden curls and his sweet smile, he had such lovely lips, he …

That was when she fell the second time.

The shade of Melara haunts her and has 'accusing' eyes.  Why would her eyes be accusing if Cersei were not guilty of drowning her?