B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

[Ser Loras The Gay]

So I need to ask you guys, what is your opinion about the identity of some of the most famous children of the books. Which one of those combinations are the most likely to be canon?

[Lollygag]

R+L=J

On my second read, I noticed that every time Ned thought about both Rhaegar and Lyanna, “Jon” (Snow or Arryn) appeared in proximity on-page for the reader. It happened too often and with perfect consistency for me to dismiss it as chance. Every time I re-read, I notice how important proximity and context are to interpretation.

On my first read, I confused Jon Snow and Jon Arryn terribly as I’m awful with names. I thought it was because GRRM was a middling writer at best, but as I read further, this wasn’t the case. And GRRM bent backwards to avoid confusion with other character names at the beginning of AGOT: Rickon/Rickard, Robb/Robert, Bran/Brandon. For thousands of characters, GRRM is really quite adept at keeping readers from being confused. But Jon/Jon was used despite other forms of “Jon” having been used in the series. I suspect this use of foreshadowing is why Jon/Jon wasn’t differentiated more to avoid confusing new readers who are bombed with loads of new names at the beginning of a series.

That said, I'd love for RLJ to not be true and for Jon to be Ned's kid, but I’d be surprised if RLJ is false given the above.

 

[Lord Wraith]

Most people (especially on this forum) will say R+L=J.

My favorite alternative is N+A=J.

[TMIFairy]

I think Jon being Brandon's by "random woman" is the most likely scenario. With Ashara being the most probable mother.

But Ned + campfollower or the fisherman's daughter cannot be ruled out either.

Or - Old Gods Who Have No Names forbid! - Rickard Stark is the father, siring Jon on a serving wench somewhere between Winterfell and Kings Landing.

[Consigliere]

R+L = J

A+R = D

It's a no-brainer.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I have yet to hear a decent argument for any Jon theory other than R+L, that would explain the Ned keeping the secret, at a considerable personal cost and against his borderline pathological honesty.

(No, "he didn't want smear X's name by telling the truth" doesn't cut it).

And alternative Dany theories feature some crazy "but you can't prove it was physically impossible" baby swaps without a good explanation what for (and, again, "we're so fucking bored, and it's ten years until another book" doesn't cut it).

So, I'll stay with the canon. Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and Dany is the daughter of Mad King Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If R+L=D then in a lot of people's mind there would be no real true born Targaryen left in the story.

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

IMO Danys visions in the house of the undying and her memories of her childhood hint that R+L=D.

She has two kinds of visions, her rivals for the power in Westeros and her close family. She see Rhaegar twice, ones with Elia and baby Aegon, where he literally looks at her and says there has be another one, the dragon has three heads and later Rhaegar dies and whispers a woman's name and the last clear vision is the blue rose on a ice wall. But she sees her "father" only ones when he orders to burn King's Landing and never her "mother".

What else does the visions tells us or Danny than Rhaegar telling her she is his daughter (and the third head of his dragon) and that not the woman in the bed is her mother but the other woman with the name and the blue rose.

Even Quaithe tells Danny she has to remember who she is. She is not Daenerys Sormborn the First of Her Name,... but she is Towerborn and knows that inside because her childhood memories don't match up with Viserys' stories she only has to remember it.

but there are a few more like the seeds of House Stark doesn't seem so strong, all Ned's children but one look like Tully, so perhaps Lyanna's would look like their father or why Ned went to Starfall after the ToJ or why he was so angry and resign as Hand after Robert wanted to kill Danny.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

21 minutes ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

IMO Danys visions in the house of the undying and her memories of her childhood hint that R+L=D.

So, the usual questions: she was passed as Daenerys Stormborn, the daughter of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen - why? And how?

[Dragonsbone]

Since:

B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

Hence 

R+L=J and R+L=D 

J=D

Therefore 

B+A=J and N+A=J 

Hence

B+A=N+A, therefore

B=N

Holy shit, Ned is Benjen!!!

Holy holy shit: Jon is Danny!!!!

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So, the usual questions: she was passed as Daenerys Stormborn, the daughter of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen - why? And how?

I've seen a theory that states that viserys is lying about Dany true nature so he can have the better claim. If she was really daughter of rhaegar she'd be the heir and not him. And saying that she's his sister would make her claim for being a Targ more believible. And some incosistencies on her memories points towards she being raised at Dorne and not Braavos as she thinks, (fucking lemon trees)

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I've seen a theory that states that viserys is lying about Dany true nature so he can have the better claim. If she was really daughter of rhaegar she'd be the heir and not him. And saying that she's his sister would make her claim for being a Targ more believible. And some incosistencies on her memories points towards she being raised at Dorne and not Braavos as she thinks, (fucking lemon trees)

There are a few problems.

Daenerys Stormborn is known as Daenerys Stormborn since... well, since she was stormborn. This theory requires everyone, Ser Willem and the whole crew of Dragonstone, to dutifully follow an 8-year-old Viserys' master plan.

Two, Daenerys the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna would have two huge obstacles between her and the throne: presumed bastardy (which is arguable, and I've argued it before and will again, but not here, because it will derail the thread), and being a girl. That doesn't make her claim better than Viserys, who was the indisputable legitimate son of the last Targaryen king.

Three: let's assume, FTSOTC, that the girl was raised in some place not being Braavos. How does that make her less of a daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and more of a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

And it doesn't even touch the second big question, how.

[1/7 Maester]

Well, Prince Baelor Breakspear was is appearence  more Martell than Targaryen. 

Jon Snow is in  appearence  a Stark, everyone notices this, who has seen a Stark.  

It is very possible, that his father is Rhaegar and his mother is Lyanna.

Daenerys on the other hand  has the classic Targaryen apperence.  I really don't  see any prove that her parents are difffent from what is "officially" told.

[WalkinDude]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I've seen a theory that states that viserys is lying about Dany true nature so he can have the better claim. If she was really daughter of rhaegar she'd be the heir and not him. And saying that she's his sister would make her claim for being a Targ more believible. And some incosistencies on her memories points towards she being raised at Dorne and not Braavos as she thinks, (fucking lemon trees)

Except it wouldn't, since as others have pointed out, if Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she is a bastard.  And two, men always come before women in succession.  This isn't Dorne.  The bastard daughter of a male heir doesn't take precedence  over the 2nd son.

 

There's this continued desire to be a naysayer among some readers.  I get it, Dany's history is murky and something is up.  Lemon Trees don't grow in Bravos.  Quaithe telling her to "remember who you are."  But why would Ned Stark, who made a promise to Lyanna, let his niece disappear with a Targaryen loyalist and with her 8 year old uncle?  How the hell does that provide more protection for her than if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned sacrificed everything he believed in to keep his nephew safe?  

 

If Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara, why lie?  Why not tell Catelyn that Jon is the bastard of his brother?  Catelyn is married to Ned.  She loves Ned.  How does lying about fathering a bastard save Catelyn's feelings compared to saying "Yea, my brother, the guy you were supposed to marry, but ran off to the Red Keep and threatened the crown prince and was killed, he fathered a bastard with Ashara Dayne."

 

This isn't the TV show.  Martin's writing and story direction make sense.  TWOW isn't out yet, so no one can say definitively one way or the other.  But you can't interject theories that make no sense and completely violate the story Martin has so carefully crafted.  Maybe Jon and Dany are twins (unlikely due to when we know each as born) but there's no reasonable explanation based on what we've read and know about Ned Stark about how he'd make a promise to his dying sister and then hand off her child to a complete stranger before heading to Starfall, picking up Brandon's bastard child, then hiding the truth about Jon from Catelyn while letting Dany be drug around Essos completely unprotected.  That claim isn't the way GRRM writes, and to support it, you need a hell of a lot more than an unfounded interpretation from one of Quaithe's comments. 

[Denam_Pavel]

I prefer N + A = J but I believe R + L = J

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There are a few problems.

Daenerys Stormborn is known as Daenerys Stormborn since... well, since she was stormborn. This theory requires everyone, Ser Willem and the whole crew of Dragonstone, to dutifully follow an 8-year-old Viserys' master plan.

Two, Daenerys the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna would have two huge obstacles between her and the throne: presumed bastardy (which is arguable, and I've argued it before and will again, but not here, because it will derail the thread), and being a girl. That doesn't make her claim better than Viserys, who was the indisputable legitimate son of the last Targaryen king.

Three: let's assume, FTSOTC, that the girl was raised in some place not being Braavos. How does that make her less of a daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and more of a daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

And it doesn't even touch the second big question, how.

But lemon trees are often associate with Dorne. And tower of joy as far as I know is at Dorne. So it'd make sense that she is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara in this scenario. You're right about the heir stuff. I don't know the reason why Viserys would lie if she was really the daughter of R + A but there are some inconsistences and things that are simply wrong about her memories regarding the place she lived as a child.

[Denam_Pavel]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I've seen a theory that states that viserys is lying about Dany true nature so he can have the better claim. If she was really daughter of rhaegar she'd be the heir and not him. And saying that she's his sister would make her claim for being a Targ more believible. And some incosistencies on her memories points towards she being raised at Dorne and not Braavos as she thinks, (fucking lemon trees)

He wanted to marry Dany. Not be to forced to marry some icky unrelated noble woman because Dany is unviable because she's a bastard.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

23 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Except it wouldn't, since as others have pointed out, if Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she is a bastard.  And two, men always come before women in succession.  This isn't Dorne.  The bastard daughter of a male heir doesn't take precedence  over the 2nd son.

 

There's this continued desire to be a naysayer among some readers.  I get it, Dany's history is murky and something is up.  Lemon Trees don't grow in Bravos.  Quaithe telling her to "remember who you are."  But why would Ned Stark, who made a promise to Lyanna, let his niece disappear with a Targaryen loyalist and with her 8 year old uncle?  How the hell does that provide more protection for her than if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned sacrificed everything he believed in to keep his nephew safe?  

 

If Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara, why lie?  Why not tell Catelyn that Jon is the bastard of his brother?  Catelyn is married to Ned.  She loves Ned.  How does lying about fathering a bastard save Catelyn's feelings compared to saying "Yea, my brother, the guy you were supposed to marry, but ran off to the Red Keep and threatened the crown prince and was killed, he fathered a bastard with Ashara Dayne."

 

This isn't the TV show.  Martin's writing and story direction make sense.  TWOW isn't out yet, so no one can say definitively one way or the other.  But you can't interject theories that make no sense and completely violate the story Martin has so carefully crafted.  Maybe Jon and Dany are twins (unlikely due to when we know each as born) but there's no reasonable explanation based on what we've read and know about Ned Stark about how he'd make a promise to his dying sister and then hand off her child to a complete stranger before heading to Starfall, picking up Brandon's bastard child, then hiding the truth about Jon from Catelyn while letting Dany be drug around Essos completely unprotected.  That claim isn't the way GRRM writes, and to support it, you need a hell of a lot more than an unfounded interpretation from one of Quaithe's comments. 

The problem is that Dany if daughter of R and A would have valyrian features and carrying that child all the way up to Winterfell would be more dangerous than letting her be with a random dude at Pentos. Think about, a baby with purple deep eyes and white hair, how on earth would he be able to say that son is his? Or his brother's? Yes, it doesn't make sense however lie about Jon being his, however, Jon could be REALLY his son with Ashara. That are many and many possible combinations here, Jon being Rhaegar's son with Lyanna, Jon being Ned's real son, Jon being Brandon's son and whatsoever. But you're right, the most likely combination is Jon being R+L and Dany simply being daughter of Aerys.

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

What if Rhaella had a girl at Dragonstone, she named her Daenerys but after the they fled to Bravos the girl died, as did many of Rhaella's children

And in Starfall Ned took Jon from Ashara because he is his son, and he couldn't keep the baby girl from the ToJ because she looked so Targaryen. Ashara was supposed to raise that girl and did that for a while with a red door and a lemon tree.

The question how she came to Viserys is tricky but i think Varys and Illyrio Mopatis did that. They wanted a Targaryen sister wife for Aegon so a bastard sister wife is better than nothing. So they brought her to Viserys and brainwashed him that his sister never died or told him she is from blood of Old Valyria and he needed a Targaryen wife to wake the dragon, or something like that, or even that she is Rheagar's daughter and had a better claim than him because everyone loved her father and hated his but he could fix that by marrying her, he was only a lonely child and he needed support, i think he would be easy manipulated.

but if the greatest hero of this story, who everybody loves and only does right and honourable thing is the promised King instead of just a bastard, it is kind of lame. But if the queen with 3 dragons, 2 armys, bunch of titles and who is really trying to be a just and good ruler, has actually no claime then it questions the whole history of westeros and the Targaryen reign, which was all about who has the right to rules not about how to rule.

[WalkinDude]

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The problem is that Dany if daughter of R and A would have valyrian features and carrying that child all the way up to Winterfell would be more dangerous than letting her be with a random dude at Pentos. Think about, a baby with purple deep eyes and white hair, how on earth would he be able to say that son is his? Or his brother's? Yes, it doesn't make sense however lie about Jon being his, however, Jon could be REALLY his son with Ashara. That are many and many possible combinations here, Jon being Rhaegar's son with Lyanna, Jon being Ned's real son, Jon being Brandon's son and whatsoever. But you're right, the most likely combination is Jon being R+L and Dany simply being daughter of Aerys.

Many people think Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother.  Cersei said as much.  Ashara had violet eyes.  The silver hair is a bit of an issue, but then again, why hasn't anyone suggested Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna?  The entire kingdom knows Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna.  It's certainly commonly accepted in the north that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her.  So 15 years later, and no one has ever said "I wonder if Jon Snow is really the child of rape between Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned is claiming him as a bastard to protect him from Robert's wrath?" 

 

Granted, a Silver haired, violet eyed child would ask a lot more questions.  But besides the eyes, many babies are born without hair or have a different shade of hair than they will in adult hood.  Princess Rhaenys didn't look Targaryen, but no one questioned Rhaegar was her father.

 

All I'm saying is that the evidence is quite compelling that Jon is the product of R+L and Ned lied to everyone, including his wife, to keep Jon's paternity a secret.  If Ned promised to watch over his sister's child, no one was better insulated and protected than Jon.  Compared to Dany who had no support other than her abusive older brother for 14 years watching over her.