Does Cersei really love Jaime?

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you are claiming you know what happened better than Lancel and the author? Your claim was that Cersei controls men with sex. That isn't true for Lancel. It may, to a degree, be true for the Kettleblacks, but that's it. Cersei doesn't sleep with Sandor, Slynt, Littlefinger, Trant, Blount, etc. and they still do what she says more often than not.

There is also Lancel's confession to Tyrion that Lord Tywin commanded them to do everything Cersei said when they became Robert's squires. Lancel makes a big deal out of the whole wineskin thing but it wasn't really murder. Cersei wouldn't have had sex to control Lancel to convince him to do that. In fact, she may have just told him to give Robert the special wine without a very good information. He may only have figured out that he helped killing the king afterwards. After all, what would have happened if there hadn't been a boar, or if they hadn't found him? What if Robert had actually hit the boar despite the his state? Then he wouldn't have died. And Lancel wouldn't have attacked the king directly, that much is clear.

Blount, Trant, and all those little pricks do what she wants b/c they're no good PoS who fear the Lannisters' power. With them it's nothing to do w/ sex. It's all quite clear, really.

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Blount, Trant, and all those little pricks do what she wants b/c they're no good PoS who fear the Lannisters' power. With them it's nothing to do w/ sex. It's all quite clear, really.

Yeah, well, things are more complicated than this two-dimensional travesty. Even with Cersei. She is still somewhat two-dimensional, but in other areas.

And this sex thing is actually really interesting. Now, I really think Lancel was a pale mirror of Jaime, a distraction/comfort in the time immediately after Robert's death. It is quite clear that she was pretty distraught because of Jaime, we hear this in detail in Tyrion's ACoK chapters. Tyrion exploits Cersei's fear for Jaime's life to get himself confirmed as Acting Hand, remember?

Osmund Kettleblack may have gotten sexual favors from the queen around the time he joined the Kingsguard, I could imagine. Cersei would have been driven to do that to ensure his loyalty in the struggle against Tyrion. In case of the younger Kettleblacks I think she only got around that in AFfC after Tywin's death.

[Dofs]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you are claiming you know what happened better than Lancel

Well, yeah, I do.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and the author

Lancel is not the author's voice.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei doesn't sleep with Sandor, Slynt, Littlefinger, Trant, Blount, etc. and they still do what she says more often than not.

Cersei sleeps with people who do special work for her - like killing the King or High Septon and hence risk with their head, not with those who simply follow her normal lawful orders.

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is also Lancel's confession to Tyrion that Lord Tywin commanded them to do everything Cersei said when they became Robert's squires. Lancel makes a big deal out of the whole wineskin thing but it wasn't really murder. Cersei wouldn't have had sex to control Lancel to convince him to do that. In fact, she may have just told him to give Robert the special wine without a very good information. He may only have figured out that he helped killing the king afterwards. After all, what would have happened if there hadn't been a boar, or if they hadn't found him? What if Robert had actually hit the boar despite the his state? Then he wouldn't have died. And Lancel wouldn't have attacked the king directly, that much is clear.

Lancel started to give Robert a stronger wine after they found the boar and began to hunt it. Which means that Lancel knew very well why he was doing it. And the plan was horrible, that's true, but it was a plan to kill Robert and that is a fact, flat out spelled in the book, told by Cersei herself.

[foxberlin]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, let's get this thing in order. [snip]

Thanks for your effort. This is how I understood your earlier posts about this topic. I share your view mostly, only that I think GRRM may let Jaime's self-invention succeed.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, foxberlin said:

Thanks for your effort. This is how I understood your earlier posts about this topic. I share your view mostly, only that I think GRRM may let Jaime's self-invention succeed.

How do you think that could work? I mean, he does intend to betray his own king by revealing the truth about his parentage? He may then, in a sense, speak the truth but he would still make a travesty out of the Kingsguard thing. And if he ends up with Aegon he would be doomed, too, at least in the long run. He would be one of the best practical jokes in history - a man who killed the last Targaryen king only to help crown another false Targaryen king, fighting against the true Targaryen queen at his side.

And even earlier on we can see that his Catelyn connection right now should make it completely impossible to stay in any way, shape, or form loyal to his family and king, even if he didn't already had those thoughts about telling the truth about Tommen/Myrcella all by himself.

Perhaps 'Goldenhand the Just' sort of works in Jaime's own twisted mind for a time, but we can also be pretty sure that Ramsay makes sense of himself in his own mind. But other people won't even remotely see Jaime in the way he sees himself or wants to be seen by others. It can only get progressively worse.

Judging a man by his own standards or getting drawn in by his funny inner voice (and I really enjoy Jaime's chapters) makes the reader his accomplice, it doesn't help judging him (somewhat) objectively. It is a similar thing with Tyrion. If we get drawn in by his voice we tend to justify or even forget the murder of Simon Silver Tongue or not condemn him all that much for the murders of Tywin and Shae. But Tyrion crossed more than a few lines here. One could even question whether the murder of Allar Deem is completely in order. If Tyrion wanted the man dead he should have tried and executed him, right?

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Well, yeah, I do.

Lancel is not the author's voice.

Lancel is the only person commenting on the time he and Cersei first had sex. We won't get any other comment on that whole thing. And if you look at the time line you see that this doesn't really add up. Jaime confronts Ned over the Tyrion abduction. Then he is forced to flee the city after he kills the Stark men and injures Ned. Once Ned awakens Robert reappoints him his Hand and decides to go off hunting. Lancel would have gone with him as his squire then, not later. Then Ned confronted Cersei about the incest some time later and then Robert eventually died. I doubt Lancel got back to KL in that time, nor do I think Cersei actually risked sending messengers informing Lancel that he was to kill the king. He most likely either had the strongwine with him from the start, per Cersei's orders, or he received it via messenger with the instruction to give it to the king.

But that doesn't mean he knew it was intended to kill him. He may only have figured that out or learned that from Cersei later. Cersei knew Robert's habits pretty well.

But in any case, this makes it perfectly clear that Lancel would have had slept with Cersei at a time while Jaime was still in the city if we were supposed to believe that this took place before Robert's death. And that is simply very difficult to believe.

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Cersei sleeps with people who do special work for her - like killing the King or High Septon and hence risk with their head, not with those who simply follow her normal lawful orders.

That still doesn't explain why Blount and Trant are described as her creatures from the start while other Kingsguard are not. There must be some sort of special connection between them and Cersei but nothing indicates that this has anything to do with sex. And neither the Blounts nor the Trants are from the Westerlands.

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

Lancel started to give Robert a stronger wine after they found the boar and began to hunt it. Which means that Lancel knew very well why he was doing it. And the plan was horrible, that's true, but it was a plan to kill Robert and that is a fact, flat out spelled in the book, told by Cersei herself.

See above. But again, my point was about Cersei making men do what she wants them to do via sex. And that's clearly not the case with Lancel. She wanted to have fun with him. After all, what should the boy have done after Robert's death if she had refused to have sex with him? Go complain to Cersei's pimp about that? He had no leverage over her.

[Davjos]

@Lord Varys

I often agre with you and the same is true for most of the points you're making in this thread. But you honestly say the fact that Cercei is happy with Tyrion because Renly and Stannis started fighting is a sign of a normal relationship between siblings? This is the same girl who hated an innocent baby so much she wanted it to die, who continued to despise him for things he had no control over. Cercei made the choice to hate Tyrion for his entire life, Tyrion didn't choose to be born as a monster or to 'kill' his mother. She hated him as a baby, she hated him when he became Hand. 

 

To put all her anger with Tyrion on those threats he makes towards her is just going too far in justifying Cercei IMO. And to say it shows love? I read it as showing the opposite. Cercei can even be friendly and happy with the person she hates the most if he can do/just did something for her. All her emotions are situational. Everything is a response. If she had a normal sibling relationship with Tyrion they should have bonded over the fact that they both are physically deemed unfit to rule, unfit for power. But she hates him for the same shit she's struggling with. 

[foxberlin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you think that could work? I mean, he does intend to betray his own king by revealing the truth about his parentage? He may then, in a sense, speak the truth but he would still make a travesty out of the Kingsguard thing. And if he ends up with Aegon he would be doomed, too, at least in the long run. He would be one of the best practical jokes in history - a man who killed the last Targaryen king only to help crown another false Targaryen king, fighting against the true Targaryen queen at his side.

And even earlier on we can see that his Catelyn connection right now should make it completely impossible to stay in any way, shape, or form loyal to his family and king, even if he didn't already had those thoughts about telling the truth about Tommen/Myrcella all by himself.

Perhaps 'Goldenhand the Just' sort of works in Jaime's own twisted mind for a time, but we can also be pretty sure that Ramsay makes sense of himself in his own mind. But other people won't even remotely see Jaime in the way he sees himself or wants to be seen by others. It can only get progressively worse.

Judging a man by his own standards or getting drawn in by his funny inner voice (and I really enjoy Jaime's chapters) makes the reader his accomplice, it doesn't help judging him (somewhat) objectively. [snip]

Thanks again for sharing your view. Your scenario for Jaime would indeed make him become a joke, a rather bitter one. And it's utterly possible. We trapped in his head with that vision of Goldenhand, whereas on the outside all Jaime does is ineffective to say the least. A disappointment both for Cersei and Brienne: the first betrayed, the second unsupported. I can see that, it's there.

Since my own idea for the endgame puts Jaime in a rather unexpected setting, I would need to answer with lengthy post, provided you are interested in another approach. My scenario holds both aspects of Jaime doing the wrong thing believing it to be good and Jaime doing good things by being selfish.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

@Lord Varys

I often agre with you and the same is true for most of the points you're making in this thread. But you honestly say the fact that Cercei is happy with Tyrion because Renly and Stannis started fighting is a sign of a normal relationship between siblings?

I chose that to show that Cersei was not, in fact, despising/hating Tyrion as much back then as she did later on. She never liked him all that much, and she treated him horribly when he was little, nobody doubts that.

28 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

This is the same girl who hated an innocent baby so much she wanted it to die, who continued to despise him for things he had no control over. Cercei made the choice to hate Tyrion for his entire life, Tyrion didn't choose to be born as a monster or to 'kill' his mother. She hated him as a baby, she hated him when he became Hand. 

I never said Cersei was a nice girl. But it is not all that uncommon that young children don't like their siblings for this or that reason, especially when they feel those children are getting more attention than themselves or that they are stealing the love of their parents. Cersei and Jaime both lost their mother, and got Tyrion in exchange, basically. If we assume that Cersei was rather close to her mother (which is entirely possible) it would not surprise me that she grew to resent and hate Tyrion from the beginning because he was the cause of her mother's death. After all, this was Lord Tywin's view, too, and children quickly pick up on things like that.

And then there is the fact that Tyrion was a malformed, ugly creature. He was seen as a bad omen, a punishment by the gods. He was not seen as a normal child. Under those circumstances it is not that difficult to imagine that she rejected him from the beginning. Jaime could somehow ignore all of that, perhaps because he wasn't that close to Joanna and much more willing to treat 'the family cripple/freak' with kindness since he could not possibly become a rival.

28 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

To put all her anger with Tyrion on those threats he makes towards her is just going too far in justifying Cercei IMO. And to say it shows love? I read it as showing the opposite. Cercei can even be friendly and happy with the person she hates the most if he can do/just did something for her. All her emotions are situational. Everything is a response. If she had a normal sibling relationship with Tyrion they should have bonded over the fact that they both are physically deemed unfit to rule, unfit for power. But she hates him for the same shit she's struggling with. 

At that point she doesn't really hate Tyrion yet. If she hated him she would have forbidden him to hang out at court or accompany them to Winterfell in AGoT. They were never close but back in AGoT the Lannister siblings are still a somewhat functional dysfunctional family. You see that during that breakfast they have at Winterfell.

In ACoK Cersei doesn't trust Tyrion but she is willing to work with him. It is actually Tyrion who constantly challenges her, seizing power at her expense, etc. Cersei allowed him to be Acting Hand but Tyrion didn't really thank it. Sure, he had a better strategy for the defense of the city and all but she was the Queen Regent, and he just the Acting Hand. Technically he had to do what she commanded him to do. He had no right to punish Pycelle for actually doing his duty and informing the Queen Regent of secret letters he sent to Sunspear, etc.

Those little betrayals and plots began to add up until Cersei feared Tyrion himself was a danger to her and Joffrey. And then she took steps to control him through her Alayaya plot which resulted in Tyrion making those threats. And that was what essentially ended their sibling relationship, something Tyrion didn't really understand. He spoke in anger, completely failing to understand that people do actually remember such things.

32 minutes ago, foxberlin said:

Since my own idea for the endgame puts Jaime in a rather unexpected setting, I would need to answer with lengthy post, provided you are interested in another approach. My scenario holds both aspects of Jaime doing the wrong thing believing it to be good and Jaime doing good things by being selfish.

Fire away. I'm always interested in unusual ideas that can be supported by the text up to a point.

[Dofs]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lancel is the only person commenting on the time he and Cersei first had sex. We won't get any other comment on that whole thing.

Lancel is not a judge on Cersei's character or her motivations. He can't speak for her. But we know enough of Cersei to understand what really happened between then, based on who Cersei is.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if you look at the time line you see that this doesn't really add up. Jaime confronts Ned over the Tyrion abduction. Then he is forced to flee the city after he kills the Stark men and injures Ned. Once Ned awakens Robert reappoints him his Hand and decides to go off hunting. Lancel would have gone with him as his squire then, not later. Then Ned confronted Cersei about the incest some time later and then Robert eventually died. I doubt Lancel got back to KL in that time, nor do I think Cersei actually risked sending messengers informing Lancel that he was to kill the king. He most likely either had the strongwine with him from the start, per Cersei's orders, or he received it via messenger with the instruction to give it to the king.

Most of what you have written doesn't counter the fact that Lancel knew he was killing the king. If Lancel had the stongwine from the start, it doesn't mean that Lancel didn't know anything, it only means that Cersei had decided to kill Robert before Ned told Cersei the he knew about the bastards. If there was a messenger with the strongwine, I am not sure how else you'd understand the instructions "if Robert is about to be personally involved in the hunt, give him this empowered wine as much as possible", if not for hoping that he would die. But even if Lancel only understood that he killed the King after it happened (but then I don't understand Lancel's comment about a craven's weapon), it only reinforces my argument that Cersei was sleeping to him not for comfort - it would mean that she has slept him so that he doesn't tell anyone.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But in any case, this makes it perfectly clear that Lancel would have had slept with Cersei at a time while Jaime was still in the city if we were supposed to believe that this took place before Robert's death. And that is simply very difficult to believe.

We have kinda figured out when Cersei slept with Lancel. You've provided the quote yourself just on the previous page that she slept with him after Robert's death. And I've already commented that that means that was a reward.

 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That still doesn't explain why Blount and Trant are described as her creatures from the start while other Kingsguard are not. There must be some sort of special connection between them and Cersei but nothing indicates that this has anything to do with sex. And neither the Blounts nor the Trants are from the Westerlands.

Well, nothing indicates that they didn't have sex but I don't remember Blount or Trant doing something on the level of killing the King or High Septon.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And that's clearly not the case with Lancel. She wanted to have fun with him.

But she didn't have fun with him. Again, she said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime.

 

[Lord Varys]

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Lancel is not a judge on Cersei's character or her motivations. He can't speak for her. But we know enough of Cersei to understand what really happened between then, based on who Cersei is.

No, we don't. You just claim we do based on your rather simplistic view of her character.

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Most of what you have written doesn't counter the fact that Lancel knew he was killing the king. If Lancel had the stongwine from the start, it doesn't mean that Lancel didn't know anything, it only means that Cersei had decided to kill Robert before Ned told Cersei the he knew about the bastards. If there was a messenger with the strongwine, I am not sure how else you'd understand the instructions "if Robert is about to be personally involved in the hunt, give him this empowered wine as much as possible", if not for hoping that he would die. But even if Lancel only understood that he killed the King after it happened (but then I don't understand Lancel's comment about a craven's weapon), it only reinforces my argument that Cersei was sleeping to him not for comfort - it would mean that she has slept him so that he doesn't tell anyone.

You presuppose a lot here - like, for instance, Cersei sending wine to Lancel means that Lancel does know that this was special wine. It wasn't really poisoned, and there is no reason to believe Lancel had any special orders by the queen to only hand the strongwine to Robert in certain, potentially dangerous circumstances. The whole thing was some sort of dangerous gamble, and I'm actually more inclined to believe that Cersei would have tried to take Ned out in the capital - the man was a half-cripple with his broken leg, after all - than to try to take out Robert by force if the plan had failed. Anything looking like an actual murder could very well easily ruined everything for her.

We know Cersei slept a couple of times with Lancel in ACoK. That is evident from Tyrion's blackmail of Lancel in the same book. How on earth could that be a reward if we do know that Osney Kettleblack - who was actually reward with sex for his murder of the High Septon and then for the accusation of Margaery - could only sleep with Cersei two times. Lancel was sort of involved in the death of King Robert - Robert wasn't murdered, he got himself killed, regardless what Lancel thinks of the whole thing - but he didn't do all that important stuff for her after that whole thing, did he?

And Lancel sure as hell couldn't tell anyone or fear to be seen as, well, a kingslayer. He could tell it in confession, of course, but that's it. He could not accuse Cersei openly of regicide. Especially in light of the fact that given the king strongwine in the hope that he does something stupid hardly qualifies as murder. I mean, you not objecting to me going for a swim after we had a good night's drink doesn't make you a murderer. And if I am the king then your objections would be pretty much irrelevant. 

And quite honestly, we do know Cersei slept with all the Kettleblacks - what the hell did Osmund and Osfryd do for her to be rewarded with sex? In what way are these men different from Trant and Blount? And why was sex even necessary to keep Osmund in mind. We do learn from Littlefinger that he was no longer all that reliable after he got his white cloak, suggesting that the man has at least same semblance of honor.

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

We have kinda figured out when Cersei slept with Lancel. You've provided the quote yourself just on the previous page that she slept with him after Robert's death. And I've already commented that that means that was a reward.

No, it doesn't really mean that. It would have been a reward if they had sex only once. Instead they have an on-going affair in ACoK.

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, nothing indicates that they didn't have sex but I don't remember Blount or Trant doing something on the level of killing the King or High Septon.

See above. The same is true for Osmund and Osfryd Kettleblack.

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

But she didn't have fun with him. Again, she said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime.

Then why does she have sex with Taena? She may not have as much fun with a replacement Jaime (Lancel) but she clearly enjoys this more than having no sex/comfort at all. For the Kettleblacks it might be different - she may not have enjoyed that so much. But Lancel is different.

I mean, the very idea that this young boy should actually have been able to make a deal with the queen offering her to kill the king in exchange for sex is pretty much insane. Do you think Lancel is such a rotten person? Or how do you think this played out? It was Cersei telling him what to do and him doing it. And then later she most likely seduced him, making it very clear that she was in control of this entire thing. Lancel would never have had the guts to actually ask Cersei to sleep with him. She was his cousin and the Queen Regent. And he was not even a man yet.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, we don't. You just claim we do based on your rather simplistic view of her character.

Well, I believe that you understand Cersei as much as Jaime, meaning you don't at all.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You presuppose a lot here - like, for instance, Cersei sending wine to Lancel means that Lancel does know that this was special wine. It wasn't really poisoned, and there is no reason to believe Lancel had any special orders by the queen to only hand the strongwine to Robert in certain, potentially dangerous circumstances. The whole thing was some sort of dangerous gamble, and I'm actually more inclined to believe that Cersei would have tried to take Ned out in the capital - the man was a half-cripple with his broken leg, after all - than to try to take out Robert by force if the plan had failed. Anything looking like an actual murder could very well easily ruined everything for her.

Look, this is all pure speculation that based on "I think that's what happened". Returning to the books, can you please explain why would Lancel call himself a craven for killing Robert with a wineskin if he didn't know he would kill him?

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

but he didn't do all that important stuff for her after that whole thing, did he?

Cersei was sleeping with Taena to ensure her loyalty. It was the same with Lancel. She thought both of them are in love with her (and with Lancel she was right), so she kept sleeping with them.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And quite honestly, we do know Cersei slept with all the Kettleblacks - what the hell did Osmund and Osfryd do for her to be rewarded with sex?

Cersei hasn't slept with Osfryd. And as far as we know she slept with Osmund before her chapters, so we don't know why, the whole thing was not in her chapters or in the books at all.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And then later she most likely seduced him, making it very clear that she was in control of this entire thing. Lancel would never have had the guts to actually ask Cersei to sleep with him. She was his cousin and the Queen Regent. And he was not even a man yet.

It was obvious that this was what happened, I though we were discussing why Cersei was doing it. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She may not have as much fun with a replacement Jaime (Lancel) but she clearly enjoys this more than having no sex/comfort at all.

Sorry but with the amount of factual mistakes you have made, I would advise you to reread the books at this point. Cersei has flat out said that she did not enjoy the sex with Taena. That was the time when she said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime. And you've clearly forgotten about it. You really should refresh your memory.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, I believe that you understand Cersei as much as Jaime, meaning you don't at all.

Well, that's why I've got you to explain things to me, haven't I?

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Look, this is all pure speculation that based on "I think that's what happened". Returning to the books, can you please explain why would Lancel call himself a craven for killing Robert with a wineskin if he didn't know he would kill him?

I can be asked to put poison (or something that helps you to get you killed) in your drink, too, and only realize that I sort of killed you after the fact. And then feel guilty for that. That's what's the case with Lancel. You can feel guilty even if you aren't all that guilty. You can even feel guilty if you are not guilty at all.

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Cersei was sleeping with Taena to ensure her loyalty. It was the same with Lancel. She thought both of them are in love with her (and with Lancel she was right), so she kept sleeping with them.

Cersei is sort of seduced by Taena. She approaches her, not the other way around. You are the one who has to reread those scenes. Cersei is not exactly giving Taena a lot pleasure if you remember the details of that sex scenes. She uses the whole thing to put herself in Robert's position of, essentially, raping a woman like she was raped by him. That has nothing to do with ensuring Taena's loyalty to her, although Taena certainly gives Cersei the impression that this is the case.

But Cersei never gives any impression that she thinks Taena is in love with her. She is not that stupid.

The passage you were talking about is this, I assume:

Quote

Taena gave a shudder. She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. She sounds as if she is being gored, the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore’s tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat.
It was still no good.
It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.

Nobody contests that Cersei had only real deep sexual pleasure with Jaime, but what especially Lancel would have given her in ACoK would have been comfort and the feeling of not being alone. She doesn't have to have an orgasm the way she has with Jaime, nor does she have to feel as she is when she lies abed with or close to Jaime. The fact that raw sex was never good with anybody but Jaime essentially proves my point.

It means Cersei does love Jaime very much and that she feels only close to him. She has slept with other people - male and female - for various reasons but they didn't give her the same pleasure Jaime gives her. But this doesn't mean she felt nothing during all those other things nor does it means she was always enslaving women by having sex with them.

In fact, the whole Taena story shows how lonely Cersei is and that she is in need of some sort of companionship, especially at night.

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Cersei haven't slept with Osfryd. And as far as we know she slept with Osmund before her chapters, so we don't know why, the whole thing was in her chapters at all.

She confesses to have slept with all three Kettleblack brothers to the High Septon and subsequently Ser Kevan throws them all into black cells:

Quote

“Who?” The High Septon’s eyes were fixed on hers.
Cersei could hear Unella writing behind her. Her quill made a faint, soft scratching sound. “Lancel Lannister, my cousin. And Osney Kettleblack.” Both men had confessed to bedding her, it would do her no good to deny it. “His brothers too. Both of them.” She had no way of knowing what Osfryd and Osmund might say. Safer to confess too much than too little. “It does not excuse my sin, High Holiness, but I was lonely and afraid. The gods took King Robert from me, my love and my protector. I was alone, surrounded by schemers, false friends, and traitors who were conspiring at the death of my children. I did not know who to trust, so I … I used the only means that I had to bind the Kettleblacks to me.”
“By which you mean your female parts?”
“My flesh.” She pressed a hand to her face, shuddering. When she lowered it again, her eyes were wet with tears. “Yes. May the Maid forgive me. It was for my children, though, for the realm. I took no pleasure in it. The Kettleblacks … they are hard men, and cruel, and they used me roughly, but what else was I to do? Tommen needed men around him I could trust.”

It is somewhat dubious whether the bold part means that she lies there or whether she confesses too much because she doesn't know what the High Septon already knows, trying to make some points by being honest for a change.

And this is Cersei's confession to the High Septon in relation to the Lancel situation:

Quote

“Forgiveness comes only from the gods. What of Ser Lancel, who was your cousin and your lord husband’s squire? Did you take him into your bed to win his loyalty as well?”
“Lancel.” Cersei hesitated. Careful, she told herself, Lancel will have told him everything. “Lancel loved me. He was half a boy, but I never doubted his devotion to me or my son.”
“And yet you still corrupted him.”
“I was lonely.” She choked back a sob. “I had lost my husband, my son, my lord father. I was regent, but a queen is still a woman, and women are weak vessels, easily tempted … Your High Holiness knows the truth of that. Even holy septas have been known to sin. I took comfort with Lancel. He was kind and gentle and I needed someone. It was wrong, I know, but I had no one else … a woman needs to be loved, she needs a man beside her, she … she …” She began to sob uncontrollably.

I'd say the basic outline of this is true. Cersei was lonely, and she wanted to have fun with Lancel. She certainly used his feelings and devotion for her to her advantage in her plot to kill Robert, but I don't think we can say she 'rewarded' Lancel with sex for his deed. The man lacked the power to demand such a reward. What she did she did of her own free will, perhaps in an attempt to feel some pleasure/comfort. After all, up to that point she may only have had Jaime and Robert, not yet knowing that things would feel shallow with Lancel and the Kettleblacks.

The idea that Cersei had any affairs prior to Robert's death aside from Jaime isn't very likely, after all. And there is no hint whatsoever to indicate sexual adventures in her youth while Jaime was off at Crakehall.

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

It was obvious that this was what happened, I though we were discussing why Cersei was doing it. 

If she was seducing him after the death of Robert then this wasn't 'a reward'. It was part of the game she played with him.

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Sorry but with the amount of factual mistakes you have made, I would advise you to reread the books at this point. Cersei has flat out said that she did not enjoy the sex with Taena. That was the time when she said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime. And you've clearly forgotten about it. You really should refresh your memory.

See above. And you may also recall the context of the entire chapter. Cersei is very drunk when she thinks that, and in a very dark mood. She pretty much emulates Robert there. In fact, this whole sexual episode is very disturbing because it is clearly not her normal way of having an affair. She never took a man the way she took Taena there.

[Dofs]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that's why I've got you to explain things to me, haven't I?

Well, your bias is too strong to explain anything to you. I mean, this is an example of your bias:

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody contests that Cersei had only real deep sexual pleasure with Jaime, but what especially Lancel would have given her in ACoK would have been comfort and the feeling of not being alone. She doesn't have to have an orgasm the way she has with Jaime, nor does she have to feel as she is when she lies abed with or close to Jaime. The fact that raw sex was never good with anybody but Jaime essentially proves my point.

You claim here that Cersei saying that she never felt good with anyone but Jaime somehow proves the point that she she slept with Lancel for comfort. How, I don't know, but you still say it does.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I can be asked to put poison (or something that helps you to get you killed) in your drink, too, and only realize that I sort of killed you after the fact. And then feel guilty for that. That's what's the case with Lancel. You can feel guilty even if you aren't all that guilty. You can even feel guilty if you are not guilty at all.

Well it's not about feeling guilty what is I am talking about. I talk about feeling craven. 'Craven' and 'guilty' are not synonyms and I absolutely disagree that from what you've described you can feel craven.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is somewhat dubious whether the bold part means that she lies there or whether she confesses too much because she doesn't know what the High Septon already knows, trying to make some points by being honest for a change.

I don't see what's confusing here. Thinking that confessing about all Kettleblacks is too much means that she didn't sleep with all of them no matter how you look at it.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Cersei never gives any impression that she thinks Taena is in love with her. She is not that stupid.

So, is it it? Is this the point that would prove you that Cersei is that stupid? Really, I am kinda tired of arguing about all that so I'll stop. You should really reread the books, the amount of mistakes you make is simply too big. Yes, Cersei flat out thinks in the books that Taena is in love with her. 

[cpg2016]

On 7/15/2017 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Nobody contests that Cersei had only real deep sexual pleasure with Jaime, but what especially Lancel would have given her in ACoK would have been comfort and the feeling of not being alone. She doesn't have to have an orgasm the way she has with Jaime, nor does she have to feel as she is when she lies abed with or close to Jaime. The fact that raw sex was never good with anybody but Jaime essentially proves my point.

It means Cersei does love Jaime very much and that she feels only close to him. She has slept with other people - male and female - for various reasons but they didn't give her the same pleasure Jaime gives her. But this doesn't mean she felt nothing during all those other things nor does it means she was always enslaving women by having sex with them.

This is a very disturbing view of sex and relationships.  As Rothfuss said - "a penis is not a heart".  The fact that Cersei only gets sexual pleasure from sleeping with Jaime does not mean she loves him, or evidence anything other that she's a normal human being.  In fact, in a lot of ways it backs up the theory that Cersei only views/cares about Jaime as an extension of herself, that she's a complete narcissist. It's only ever good with Jaime because really, what Cersei wants is herself.

 

On 7/15/2017 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

She uses the whole thing to put herself in Robert's position of, essentially, raping a woman like she was raped by him. That has nothing to do with ensuring Taena's loyalty to her, although Taena certainly gives Cersei the impression that this is the case.

Right.  The whole thing is supposed to be a parallel of how Robert fell from grace.  Started out young and strong, and the pressure of ruling eventually wore him down.  Cersei is in the same boat - she's drinking and gaining weight, she's starting to physically abuse those around her, etc.

On 7/15/2017 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'd say the basic outline of this is true. Cersei was lonely, and she wanted to have fun with Lancel. She certainly used his feelings and devotion for her to her advantage in her plot to kill Robert, but I don't think we can say she 'rewarded' Lancel with sex for his deed

While this may be partially true, there is undoubtedly an aspect of corruption to it as well.  This is Cersei's MO; she's a sex predator trading sex for various illicit favors.  Lancel helps kill Robert because Cersei has seduced him.  The Kettleblacks do all sorts of bad shit for the same reason (and hope of personal advancement).  She did it with Jaime to get him to join the Kingsguard.

The point being, Cersei doesn't love anyone.  She loves herself.  She "loves" others to the extent that they reflect on her; she loves her kids and Jaime as extensions of her own self-regard.  She doesn't want what's best for them, she wants them to do what's best for her.  She hides behind the idea that she's scheming for her children, but every other word out of her mouth gives the lie to it.  She didn't want Jaime to become his best self - she wanted him to make a decision that benefitted her, and damn the consequences for him.  She doesn't want her daughter to be safe in Dorne, she wants her in a soon to be besieged city where Cersei can exercise more control over her, despite the danger.  She doesn't want Tommen to learn to rule so he can grow into his responsibilities as king, she wants him to be a puppet who stamps decrees so she can wield power as long as possible.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

This is a very disturbing view of sex and relationships.  As Rothfuss said - "a penis is not a heart".  The fact that Cersei only gets sexual pleasure from sleeping with Jaime does not mean she loves him, or evidence anything other that she's a normal human being.  In fact, in a lot of ways it backs up the theory that Cersei only views/cares about Jaime as an extension of herself, that she's a complete narcissist. It's only ever good with Jaime because really, what Cersei wants is herself.

Where did I ever imply Jaime's penis or anything he does contributes all that much to Cersei's pleasure during sexual acts? Those are complex things - Cersei clearly didn't seek love with the Kettleblacks, and Lancel was a distraction and comfort, essentially a replacement for Jaime. But with Jaime things clearly are different. He isn't just a tool or an extension for her to get what she wants.

There is no hint whatsoever that Cersei only wants 'herself'. She isn't into women and she sees Jaime as her other half. They are siblings and twins in addition to being lovers. The idea that Cersei would not have a healthy and pleasant relationship with Jaime if nobody had forced her into that stupid marriage with Robert and she had to put the interests of her children before her own happiness, and Jaime's desires.

The one with the purer narcissism is Jaime. He wants to be Cersei's champion. The man only does what he wants, unlike Cersei. He refused to marry, he joined the Kingsguard (Cersei nudged him into that direction but he could think and saying something to Cersei is quite a different thing than actually telling the king what you want to do for life), he continues to have Cersei despite the fact that she was married, fathering children on her.

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Right.  The whole thing is supposed to be a parallel of how Robert fell from grace.  Started out young and strong, and the pressure of ruling eventually wore him down.  Cersei is in the same boat - she's drinking and gaining weight, she's starting to physically abuse those around her, etc.

That is Cersei - who was abused by Robert for over a decade - abusing others. It is the classical thing victims of sexual abuse do. And Cersei was raped and abused by Robert throughout her marriage. The younger Cersei wasn't as abusive we meet in the later part of the series.

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

While this may be partially true, there is undoubtedly an aspect of corruption to it as well.  This is Cersei's MO; she's a sex predator trading sex for various illicit favors.  Lancel helps kill Robert because Cersei has seduced him.  The Kettleblacks do all sorts of bad shit for the same reason (and hope of personal advancement).  She did it with Jaime to get him to join the Kingsguard.

Nope, Cersei isn't a sexual predator. Cersei exploits the desires and lust her body incites in others to her own advantage. She doesn't run around preying on and 'corrupting' innocent young boy and girls. And she also doesn't rape or forces herself on other people.

Neither the Kettleblacks nor Lancel were really seduced or preyed on by Cersei. All those men most likely went willingly along with the whole thing, or even initiated what would eventually become a sexual relationship.

Cersei certainly wants Jaime to do certain things at time, and she tries to convince him to do those things when they have sex. But Cersei and Jaime seem to have had sex rather often, and there are 2-3 instances where she tried to convince Jaime to do certain things - him joining the Kingsguard (a ridiculous ploy to allow them to together again!), him punishing Arya for attacking and humiliating Joffrey, and him helping her to prevent being separated from her children and being forced to marry again.

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The point being, Cersei doesn't love anyone.  She loves herself.  She "loves" others to the extent that they reflect on her; she loves her kids and Jaime as extensions of her own self-regard.  She doesn't want what's best for them, she wants them to do what's best for her.  She hides behind the idea that she's scheming for her children, but every other word out of her mouth gives the lie to it.  She didn't want Jaime to become his best self - she wanted him to make a decision that benefitted her, and damn the consequences for him.  She doesn't want her daughter to be safe in Dorne, she wants her in a soon to be besieged city where Cersei can exercise more control over her, despite the danger.  She doesn't want Tommen to learn to rule so he can grow into his responsibilities as king, she wants him to be a puppet who stamps decrees so she can wield power as long as possible.

Cersei correctly fears that her daughter Myrcella is in mortal danger in Dorne. She is also correct in her assessment that Tommen is doomed unless someone competent with his best interests at heart rules in his name. The Tyrells don't have Tommen's best interests at heart. And Cersei sets her plan in motion to get Myrcella out long before the Aegon threat is even on the table. You are not making sense here.

Jaime also has no interest in Cersei caring more about her children than he does - he doesn't care about them at all. He just wants her to do what he wants her to do to benefit him and his sexual/romantic desires - marry him openly.

[beauty6]

Quote

Outside a cold wind was rising. They stayed up late into the morning, drinking Arbor gold and 
telling one another tales. Taena got quite drunk and Cersei pried the name of her secret lover 
from her. He was a Myrish sea captain, half a pirate, with black hair to the shoulders and a scar 
that ran across his face from chin to ear. “A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes,” the 
other woman told her, “until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be 
denied.”

“I know the sort,” the queen said with a wry smile. 
 “Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?” 
 “Robert,” she lied, thinking of Jaime.

I looked this up as a feeble proof, that there is certain dominance by Jaime in their intimate relationship and Cersei probably enjoys this, Jaime is the best. So it slightly contradicts the notion that he is just an extension of herself, although some of you might argue both is possible at the same time. (By the way, it is very politically incorrect view of consent, Martin is much criticised for it, I would hate being "persuaded" this way in my own relationship, but I have girl-friends who say they like it exactly this way. But that is off topic here).

Anyway, my take is :

1. Cersei loves Jaime the way she is capable of. Love is rarely completely unconditional, we can speak about shades of grey here. 

2. She probably had other lovers for combined purpose of bussiness and pleasure. She certainly did not choose repulsive men to influence them this way. It is possible to anticipate pleasure and then find out it did not work.

3. Does seeking pleasure with other men prove she does not love Jaime ? The answer depends on how we value fidelity. I have a peer group of polyamorous people, so I am kind of liberal on that. Unfortunately for Cersei, Jaime puts very high emphasis on fidelity and so does their pseudo-middle aged society. I bet J&C never discussed their values. But she was aware that Jaime is prone to jealousy, there are quotes to support that, so she made a big mistake I guess. I am kind of sorry for her, that she is going to pay for her experiments and/or coping and survival strategies by losing the only satisfying partner she has ever had.

4. She must be totally confused after Jaime comes home from war. We know some of his thought process is influenced by Brienne and her obsession of oath-keeping, but nobody told Cersei that. For instance, her advances were refused in perfectly reasonable and intimate environment -the bedchamber of White tower. I doubt people would interupt them there without knocking. Only, it suddenly is a holy place for Jaime, which reminds him of his chastity oaths. Objectively, it was not nearly the same as the sept, the sept was thousand times more dangerous place. I totally understand her anger. 

 

 

[Apoplexy]

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

 

Anyway, my take is :

1. Cersei loves Jaime the way she is capable of. Love is rarely completely unconditional, we can speak about shades of grey here. 

2. She probably had other lovers for combined purpose of bussiness and pleasure. She certainly did not choose repulsive men to influence them this way. It is possible to anticipate pleasure and then find out it did not work.

3. Does seeking pleasure with other men prove she does not love Jaime ? The answer depends on how we value fidelity. I have a peer group of polyamorous people, so I am kind of liberal on that. Unfortunately for Cersei, Jaime puts very high emphasis on fidelity and so does their pseudo-middle aged society. I bet J&C never discussed their values. But she was aware that Jaime is prone to jealousy, there are quotes to support that, so she made a big mistake I guess. I am kind of sorry for her, that she is going to pay for her experiments and/or coping and survival strategies by losing the only satisfying partner she has ever had.

4. She must be totally confused after Jaime comes home from war. We know some of his thought process is influenced by Brienne and her obsession of oath-keeping, but nobody told Cersei that. For instance, her advances were refused in perfectly reasonable and intimate environment -the bedchamber of White tower. I doubt people would interupt them there without knocking. Only, it suddenly is a holy place for Jaime, which reminds him of his chastity oaths. Objectively, it was not nearly the same as the sept, the sept was thousand times more dangerous place. I totally understand her anger. 

 

 

I guess it depends on one's definition of love, but I don't think she loves Jaime.

1. If Robert had not been obsessed with Lyanna, I think Cersei would've probably 'loved' Robert better than she loved Jaime. I think she is capable of being loving and compassionate, its just that she is usually too selfish to behave otherwise. This does not say she didn't love Jaime, but I don't really see her caring for him at all.

2,3. I'm with you on the notion that just because Cersei wasn't faithful to Jaime doesn't mean she didn't love him. I would find it interesting to know how she would behave if Jaime had other sexual partners as well. I think she would want him at her beck and call and not share him with other people.

4. The scene in the White Tower shows that if Jaime does something even remotely different or doesn't give her what she wants instantly, Cersei gets mad. This to me shows she doesn't care too much about Jaime, only about herself.

[Sigella]

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 I would find it interesting to know how she would behave if Jaime had other sexual partners as well. I think she would want him at her beck and call and not share him with other people.

Cersei VII AFFC:

Quote

Her oldest memories were of sharing a bed with Jaime, when they had still been so young that no one could tell the two of them apart. Later, after they were separated, she'd had a string of bedmaids and companions, most of them girls of an age with her, the daughters of her father's household knights and bannermen. None had pleased her, and few lasted very long. Little sneaks, the lot of them. Vapid, weepy creatures, always telling tales and trying to worm their way between me and Jaime.

 

[Фейсал]

I think Cersei certainly loves herself and she considers Jaime an etension of her - so while I think there is something there it's certainly maligned and twisted in her own special way. That's why they sort of drift away once Jaime returns from captivity; his better qualities shine and the qualities Cersei saw in her that were in him are slowly being eroded away. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

I looked this up as a feeble proof, that there is certain dominance by Jaime in their intimate relationship and Cersei probably enjoys this, Jaime is the best. So it slightly contradicts the notion that he is just an extension of herself, although some of you might argue both is possible at the same time. (By the way, it is very politically incorrect view of consent, Martin is much criticised for it, I would hate being "persuaded" this way in my own relationship, but I have girl-friends who say they like it exactly this way. But that is off topic here).

I think you have to take the incest into account here. Jaime and Cersei are twin siblings, they are not strangers who met and fell in love in their teens or twenties. They knew each other inside out since their childhood and were already playing at sex before they were able to conceive children (at the age of six). In that sense the chance that Jaime actually ever did anything to Cersei she did not want him to is very unlikely.

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

Anyway, my take is :

1. Cersei loves Jaime the way she is capable of. Love is rarely completely unconditional, we can speak about shades of grey here. 

Exactly. Jaime's love for Cersei is also conditional if we talk about that. He does not want to share her with Lancel, the Kettleblacks, or Moon Boy, or does he?

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

2. She probably had other lovers for combined purpose of bussiness and pleasure. She certainly did not choose repulsive men to influence them this way. It is possible to anticipate pleasure and then find out it did not work.

That sounds very unlikely, actually. Cersei seems to have been faithful to Jaime until he left her alone with Robert and Ned in KL in AGoT. Lancel seems to have been her first lover, followed by Osmund Kettleblack and the others - Moon Boy is most likely a lie.

The idea that Cersei entertained other lovers besides Jaime while she was married to Robert seems to be out of the question, and there is no indication that she had any other man besides Jaime prior to her marriage.

And her intention/motivation in the sex with Lancel and the Kettleblacks was different. Lancel seems to have been a sort of replacement Jaime, actually stressing/underlining her love and desire for him while the Kettleblacks were men she used and exploited to get what she wanted.

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

3. Does seeking pleasure with other men prove she does not love Jaime ? The answer depends on how we value fidelity. I have a peer group of polyamorous people, so I am kind of liberal on that. Unfortunately for Cersei, Jaime puts very high emphasis on fidelity and so does their pseudo-middle aged society. I bet J&C never discussed their values. But she was aware that Jaime is prone to jealousy, there are quotes to support that, so she made a big mistake I guess. I am kind of sorry for her, that she is going to pay for her experiments and/or coping and survival strategies by losing the only satisfying partner she has ever had.

She wasn't experimenting for pleasure and there is no hint whatsoever that she is polyamorous or anything of that sort. Cersei didn't love Lancel or the Kettleblacks. And her obsession with Rhaegar wasn't love at all but the same kind of infatuation Sansa felt for Joffrey. Cersei never knew Rhaegar as a person, and she was only ten years old when Aerys II rejected her as bride for his son - while Rhaegar was already seventeen.

The crucial part of the jealousy thing is actually Tyrion's poisoned line to Jaime. It is what made Jaime jealous and and paranoid, slowly killing his love for Cersei, nothing else. Brienne has nothing to do with that.

4 hours ago, beauty6 said:

4. She must be totally confused after Jaime comes home from war. We know some of his thought process is influenced by Brienne and her obsession of oath-keeping, but nobody told Cersei that. For instance, her advances were refused in perfectly reasonable and intimate environment -the bedchamber of White tower. I doubt people would interupt them there without knocking. Only, it suddenly is a holy place for Jaime, which reminds him of his chastity oaths. Objectively, it was not nearly the same as the sept, the sept was thousand times more dangerous place. I totally understand her anger. 

Brienne is only a part of that. The trauma Jaime went through in the Riverlands allowed him to reconnect with his old self-image. The youth who wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne. The loss of the hand destroys the armor he has built for himself, the invincible warrior who can deal with any challenge. When he gets back to KL he tries to reconnect with his old career path - the Kingsguard thing - and do that right this time, but that's not what either Tywin nor Cersei want for him. That's why it causes trouble.

But Jaime remains a narcissist in everything he does. It is all about him. Earlier everything was about him and Cersei and now it is about Jaime as Goldenhand the Just. He wants to reinvent himself and finally get rid of this whole Kingslayer thing. But not because it is the right thing to do or anything but because Jaime Lannister thinks he would look better if he did that.

And the funny thing is that he is constantly failing at becoming a better man. Just look how he ended the siege of Riverrun. He was disgusting there to Edmure and the Blackfish but he didn't seem to grasp how fucked-up his threats were. Nobody in Westeros realizes the Kingslayer is trying to be a better person.

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

1. If Robert had not been obsessed with Lyanna, I think Cersei would've probably 'loved' Robert better than she loved Jaime. I think she is capable of being loving and compassionate, its just that she is usually too selfish to behave otherwise. This does not say she didn't love Jaime, but I don't really see her caring for him at all.

Considering that Cersei and Jaime were in love for nearly two decades by the time she married Robert this is very unlikely. Jaime was with her throughout her marriage. The chances that their sexual relationship would have ended is very unlikely. Robert was a good-looking guy, sure, but he wasn't as handsome as Jaime. Very few men in Westeros are as handsome as Jaime.

It is quite clear that Cersei loves Jaime with all her heart. Even in AFfC and ADwD. From her point of view their present troubles is just a minor quarrel. They'll get over it. That's why she wrote him the letter she wrote. She doesn't understand that their relationship might be damaged permanently. 

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

2,3. I'm with you on the notion that just because Cersei wasn't faithful to Jaime doesn't mean she didn't love him. I would find it interesting to know how she would behave if Jaime had other sexual partners as well. I think she would want him at her beck and call and not share him with other people.

Sure, just as Jaime does. But then - it was not her decision to marry Robert. And as I lay out above she only seems to have had other sexual relationships after Jaime was gone - perhaps gone for good. I'd even wager that Cersei only took Lancel into her bed after word about Jaime's capture reached court - shortly after Joffrey had executed Ned. She would have expected that the Starks kill Jaime to avenge Ned and the thought would have terrified her. It would have been the moment where she was truly looking for solace.

We see it in Cersei's chapters in AFfC that she really needs company in bed - not just for sex but to not feel so lonely and afraid.

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

4. The scene in the White Tower shows that if Jaime does something even remotely different or doesn't give her what she wants instantly, Cersei gets mad. This to me shows she doesn't care too much about Jaime, only about herself.

You have to read the entire scene in detail. Cersei is desperate there. Their father wants to take power from her, wants to separate her children from her, wants to marry her to yet another man. She goes to Jaime for comfort and support and he rejects her. She is a proud woman and has a temper. She lashes out if somebody rejects her or makes a fool of her. But that doesn't mean she doesn't love him. 

Jaime is the one behaving childishly in that scene, not she. As I think I've laid out elsewhere in this thread Jaime is clearly the worse person in this relationship, especially in relation to their children. Jaime doesn't care about them at all. Sure, he couldn't be their father in public but he is still their uncle. Tyrion is their uncle, too, and he loves Myrcella and Tommen. Jaime has no feeling whatsoever for his children. He claims it is because Cersei made them Robert's children but that was inevitable.

Not to mention that mad idea of his that Cersei should marry Jaime. It would be nice and all but it would destroy the lives and legal claims of their children, children Jaime fathered and should care for as much as their mother does. Joffrey/Tommen on the Iron Throne should be as much Jaime's priority as it is Tywin's or Cersei's. But for Jaime his desire to publicly marry Cersei is the top priority.