It's Brienne...

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

After a time the candle guttered and went out. Moonlight slanted between the slats of the shutters, laying pale silvery bars across her father's face. She could hear the soft whisper of his labored breathing, the endless rush of waters, the faint chords of some love song drifting up from the yard, so sad and sweet. "I loved a maid as red as autumn," Rymund sang, "with sunset in her hair."

Catelyn VII, Clash 55

This was right before Catelyn played matchmaker with Jaime and Brienne the Beauty. So, we have Tyrion and Tysha followed by Tyrion and Shae, and we have Jaime and Cersei followed by Jaime and Brienne. 

This is great work, putting the lines together across so many POVs.

I don't think the line in the Catelyn POV is referring to Brienne, though, or Jaime. Catelyn and Lysa have auburn hair, which might match the idea of autumn red. Brienne has straw-colored hair and is associated with the color blue.

I wonder what the light will be in the fourth season? If the song has used sunlight, moonglow and sunset, the fourth is likely to be . . . dawn?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

I have just discovered this thread and I'm fascinated by the OP.

Cersei actively watches out for a beautiful, young queen in the making, in the literal sense, while she totally dismisses the idea that Brienne of Tarth could mean any danger to her. It is only in character that she is wrong again when judging people.

Great contributions by other posters as well. I especially loved the Shakespeare discussion. 

That's exactly how I see it as well. Cersei's "love" is absolutely narcissistic. Yes, she loves her own power in her children, and she loves the male version of her own image in Jaime. For her, Jaime is a "Cersei" who can hold a sword and will use it, a member of the dominant sex (how many times has she complained that she should have been born a man?), and yet someone Cersei can perfectly dominate, as though he was an extension of herself. 

I think this explanation solves the problem of "great idea but Cersei doesn't really love Jaime". She is actually quite obsessed with him, "holds him dear" so to speak, only she doesn't love him in the truest, noblest sense of the word, she is not interested in Jaime's well-being, only in her "right" to possess him. Cersei is unable to selflessly love another person, but then the prophecy doesn't exactly use the word love, only "hold dear".

Yes, with regard to Brienne, both the Venus (Evenstar) symbolism and the Maid (Virgin) symbolism are very important. Let me just mention that in medieval art, blue was the colour associated with the Virgin Mary, which is exactly Brienne's colour. (There you have a Queen image of yet another kind). So Brienne is associated with two basic aspects of femininity: Venus (love and beauty) and Virgin (innocence and goodness). Actually, it sounds like the ideal woman, and yet... Anyway, I think this symbolism is really exciting, and it really should lead somewhere...

Hmm... Off topic, I wonder if that's why Lyanna’sroses are blue? 

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

What is the likelihood of Brienne actually becoming a Queen?

It’s a strong possibility - Daenerys and Jon could die without issue in the upcoming wars, either Daenerys or a Great Council could select Brienne as the heir to the Iron Throne (it being highly likely she’s a descendant, and the legitimate heir, of Princess Daella Targaryen or Princess Rhae Targaryen). 

Yet, I just don’t see it. But I suppose there are two huge novels left for that to change. 

[Lady Dacey]

6 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

What is the likelihood of Brienne actually becoming a Queen?

It’s a strong possibility - Daenerys and Jon could die without issue in the upcoming wars, either Daenerys or a Great Council could select Brienne as the heir to the Iron Throne (it being highly likely she’s a descendant, and the legitimate heir, of Princess Daella Targaryen or Princess Rhae Targaryen). 

Yet, I just don’t see it. But I suppose there are two huge novels left for that to change. 

I think the idea is precisely that the "until there comes another" line isn't about another queen, but another woman that will take away all that Cersei holds dear. So Brienne would not need to become queen to fulfill the prophecy. 

@Lost Melnibonean I have been convinced that Jaime has already chosen Brienne over Cersei since my first read. Your selection of quotes is perfect for anyone who still insists Jaime's feelings for Brienne aren't romantic. I never thought she could fulfill the prophecy, but you make a great case for it. Thanks for the read! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

What is the likelihood of Brienne actually becoming a Queen?

It’s a strong possibility - Daenerys and Jon could die without issue in the upcoming wars, either Daenerys or a Great Council could select Brienne as the heir to the Iron Throne (it being highly likely she’s a descendant, and the legitimate heir, of Princess Daella Targaryen or Princess Rhae Targaryen). 

Yet, I just don’t see it. But I suppose there are two huge novels left for that to change. 

Are you assuming that she must become an actual queen? If that is an element of the prophecy, I do not think Brienne can satisfy it. 

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

What is the likelihood of Brienne actually becoming a Queen?

 

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Are you assuming that she must become an actual queen? If that is an element of the prophecy, I do not think Brienne can satisfy it. 

For those willing to consider a symbolic solution, I think Brienne might become a metaphorical queen when she visits the Quiet Isle. There are several references to beeswax candles, eating honey and then Brienne's special, separate path and overnight accommodations in a stone beehive. I think you can compare worker drone bees to the all-male brothers who inhabit the isle. As the only woman in the "hive", Brienne becomes the de facto queen bee.

Her journey at that point has been a series of lessons about loyalty, honesty, peace, defending the helpless, faith and forgiveness. Good lessons for a future monarch.

I'm also starting to wonder whether we are supposed to compare her to Lady Stoneheart at that point. Catelyn's body washes up on a river bank before she is reborn as Lady Stoneheart. Brienne comes up from the river bed with Septon Meribald and Dog as her guides. The Brotherhood Without Banners has a headquarters in a hollow hill; Elder Brother lives in a hermit cave that has been hollowed out and made into an apartment and meeting room. Catelyn wasn't a queen per se, although you could make the case that she was the queen mother of King Robb and she is certainly a parallel character for Cersei on many levels.

[Lady Dacey]

14 hours ago, Seams said:

wonder what the light will be in the fourth season? If the song has used sunlight, moonglow and sunset, the fourth is likely to be . . . dawn?

Spring and dawn certainly go together... "a maid as xxxx as spring", what could it be? 

Expanding on it: 

as fair as summer

as white as winter

as red as autumn

maybe... as colorful as spring? As in Brienne of the Rainbow guard with her colorful cloak? Am I stretching it too thin? 

2 hours ago, Seams said:

There are several references to beeswax candles, eating honey and then Brienne's special, separate path and overnight accommodations in a stone beehive. I think you can compare worker drone bees to the all-male brothers who inhabit the isle. As the only woman in the "hive", Brienne becomes the de facto queen bee.

Love the queen Bree connection!

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Spring and dawn certainly go together... "a maid as xxxx as spring", what could it be? 

Expanding on it: 

as fair as summer

as white as winter

as red as autumn

maybe... as colorful as spring? As in Brienne of the Rainbow guard with her colorful cloak? Am I stretching it too thin? 

Love the queen Bree connection!

Bright or fresh or gay as spring? 

[Lady Dacey]

25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bright or fresh or gay as spring? 

Bright would work I think. GRRM os working with visual perception with this verses: fair, white, red... I think both "colorful" and "bright" fit better than fresh or gay, but we'll have to wait and see.

"I loved a maid as bright as spring, with sunrise in her hair" sounds good to me  

[Lost Melnibonean]

45 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Bright would work I think. GRRM os working with visual perception with this verses: fair, white, red... I think both "colorful" and "bright" fit better than fresh or gay, but we'll have to wait and see.

"I loved a maid as bright as spring, with sunrise in her hair" sounds good to me  

Me too. 

[Megorova]

One thing that doesn't add up, with Brienne being that younger and more beautiful from the prophecy, is that it wasn't Brienne, who took Joffrey and Tommen away from Cersei. It was Margaery. And Cersei's fall, and her confrontation with the Faith, was also caused by Margaery.

Brienne did managed to lure Jaime to come with her. But it's not like Jaime decided not to go to Cersei, when she wrote a letter to him, because of Brienne. First he got that letter, and decided not to go back to KL. And only after that Brienne came there, and they went away together. So he didn't chose Brienne over Cersei.

Also could be that Jaime won't die, wherever they are going, so eventually he will return to KL. If not for Cersei, then because of Tommen and Myrcella. They are still his children, so he will return to them.

Out of five people that were dear to Cersei: 1. her father was killed by Tyrion, in course of events, that began on Margaery's wedding; 2. Joffrey was poisoned by Tyrells, because of Margaery; 3. Tommen was separated from his mother, also because of Margaery; 4. and Myrcella is on her way back from Dorne, but if something will happen to her, then Cersei will be unable to interfere and save her, because she's waiting for her trail, which is also Margaery's fault; 5. Jaime went with Brienne.

Four out of five of Cersei's losses, were cause not by Brienne. And that other woman from the prophecy, is supposed to take from Cersei everything that is dear to her. Myrcella is still alive, but Jaime already left with Brienne. Also it's unlikely that Myrcella's death will be somehow caused by Brienne. Same with Tommen. Things just don't add up. So it's not Brienne.  

[kissdbyfire]

What Cersei "holds dear" is... Cersei and power. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

One thing that doesn't add up, with Brienne being that younger and more beautiful from the prophecy, is that it wasn't Brienne, who took Joffrey and Tommen away from Cersei. It was Margaery. And Cersei's fall, and her confrontation with the Faith, was also caused by Margaery.

I don't think the younger, more beautiful "queen" has to whack Cersei's kids to fulfill the prophecy. As to her fall, Cersei perceives the problem to be Jaime's absence, and in her most desperate moment, as she wishes Jaime was there to protect her, she recalls the prophecy.  

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Brienne did managed to lure Jaime to come with her. But it's not like Jaime decided not to go to Cersei, when she wrote a letter to him, because of Brienne. First he got that letter, and decided not to go back to KL. And only after that Brienne came there, and they went away together. So he didn't chose Brienne over Cersei.

But Brienne helped to set in motion Jaime's redemption arc. And Jaime admires, if not desires, Brienne more than Cersei now. 

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also could be that Jaime won't die, wherever they are going, so eventually he will return to KL. If not for Cersei, then because of Tommen and Myrcella. They are still his children, so he will return to them.

Of course Jaime will return to King’s Landing. He is Cersei's valonqar, and Aegon's kingmaker. 

22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Out of five people that were dear to Cersei: 1. her father was killed by Tyrion, in course of events, that began on Margaery's wedding; 2. Joffrey was poisoned by Tyrells, because of Margaery; 3. Tommen was separated from his mother, also because of Margaery; 4. and Myrcella is on her way back from Dorne, but if something will happen to her, then Cersei will be unable to interfere and save her, because she's waiting for her trail, which is also Margaery's fault; 5. Jaime went with Brienne.

Four out of five of Cersei's losses, were cause not by Brienne. And that other woman from the prophecy, is supposed to take from Cersei everything that is dear to her. Myrcella is still alive, but Jaime already left with Brienne. Also it's unlikely that Myrcella's death will be somehow caused by Brienne. Same with Tommen. Things just don't add up. So it's not Brienne.  

I would submit that you are following the scent of a herring rather than the rabbit. This is what Cersei held dear and lost...

Quote

I am beautiful, the most beautiful woman in all Westeros, Jaime says so, Jaime would never lie to me. ... I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they' ve seen, they' ve seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

And this is why she lost it...

Quote

She staggered down the hill—downward, ever downward—wincing with every step, letting him support her. It should be Jaime beside me. He would draw his golden sword and slash a path right through the mob, carving the eyes out of the head of every man who dared to look at her.

So it is Brienne.

[Rhae_Valarie]

I agree that Brienne is the younger more beautiful woman. It's possible that her role in going off with Jaime when Cersei most needed him fulfilled the prophecy, but I am doubtful. Cersei hasn't hit rock bottom yet. She's still Queen, she still has two of her children, she still has hope that Jaime will return to her. All that she holds dear hasn't yet been taken, but I do agree that the emphasis on Brienne's unconventional beauty, her connection to Venus and her bond with Jaime pointing to her being the woman in the prophecy. It's interesting that in a series filled with such gorgeous women, Brienne is more tightly associated with the idea of Beauty than any of them. Of course, at first this is mocking, but as Jaime grows to appreciate Brienne he begins to see another side of her. Just as he has called her Lady Brienne, a knight, and the Maid of Tarth with complete sincerity (though he originally only meant it mockingly) I believe he will one day think of her as Brienne the Beauty with complete sincerity as well.

[Lost Melnibonean]

We can associate Brienne and Sansa to the maiden fair. What about the fair maid?

“Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho . . . "

...

"I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho."

...

"I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." The song swelled louder with every word.

Arya II, Storm 13

This sure sounds like a murder ballad. So, who gets whacked? Brienne, Sansa, or Arya?

The first time we hear about Off to Gulltown, is at the very beginning of The Hedge Knight...

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill, for the old man had always loved to watch the sunset. “Another day done,” he would sigh, “and who knows what the morrow will bring us, eh, Dunk?” Well, one morrow had brought rains that soaked them to the bones, and the one after had brought wet gusty winds, and the next a chill. By the fourth day the old man was too weak to ride. And now he was gone. Only a few days past, he had been singing as they rode, the old song about going to Gulltownto see a fair maid, but instead of Gulltown he’d sung of Ashford. Off to Ashford to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho, Dunk thought miserably as he dug.

When Ser Duncan the Tall arrived at Ashford, "it seemed as though every lordly house of the west and south had sent a knight or three to Ashford to see the fair maid and brave the lists in her honor." She was "a short girl with yellow hair and a round pink face." She did not seem so fair to Dunk, though. "The puppet girl was prettier." 

Now, here's what I am digging...

The fair maid reigned as Queen of Love and Beauty. 

A Beauty! A Beauty! 

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We can associate Brienne and Sansa to the maiden fair. What about the fair maid?

“Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho . . . "

...

"I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho."

...

"I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." The song swelled louder with every word.

Arya II, Storm 13

This sure sounds like a murder ballad. So, who gets whacked? Brienne, Sansa, or Arya?

The first time we hear about Off to Gulltown, is at the very beginning of The Hedge Knight...

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill, for the old man had always loved to watch the sunset. “Another day done,” he would sigh, “and who knows what the morrow will bring us, eh, Dunk?” Well, one morrow had brought rains that soaked them to the bones, and the one after had brought wet gusty winds, and the next a chill. By the fourth day the old man was too weak to ride. And now he was gone. Only a few days past, he had been singing as they rode, the old song about going to Gulltownto see a fair maid, but instead of Gulltown he’d sung of Ashford. Off to Ashford to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho, Dunk thought miserably as he dug.

When Ser Duncan the Tall arrived at Ashford, "it seemed as though every lordly house of the west and south had sent a knight or three to Ashford to see the fair maid and brave the lists in her honor." She was "a short girl with yellow hair and a round pink face." She did not seem so fair to Dunk, though. "The puppet girl was prettier." 

Now, here's what I am digging...

The fair maid reigned as Queen of Love and Beauty. 

A Beauty! A Beauty! 

Very nice!

We must have been drinking the same tea today. The Ashford Tourney is a place where noble houses associated with Renly's Rainbow Guard were all present and engaged in the action. Of course, Brienne is part of that Rainbow Guard.

However, I think the song alludes to Sansa / Alayne and to Sandor Clegane - he didn't actually kiss her at knife point, but she thinks he did. And Sandor is associated with shadow, so resting in the shade would be something he would do.

But, of course, Sandor is probably the grave digger at the Quiet Isle. And he was also a king's guard.

Gulls and Gulltown may be part of a bird motif closely associated with the Rainbow Guard.

And Brienne is also a puppet girl after being strung up and made to "dance" by the Brotherhood Without Banners.

Brienne's first betrothed was a boy from House Caron, represented by Lord Bryce Caron in the Rainbow Guard, and he also died of a chill.

Brienne meets Ser Illifer the Pennyless when she begins her quest to find Sansa, and Ser Arlan is from Pennytree.

Both Sansa and Brienne are associated with the Florian the Fool story that "the puppet girl" acted out with marionettes in one of the Dunk & Egg stories.

[The Mother of The Others]

Forever it's been evident Brienne is stealing Jaime from Cercei with her hot example of knighthood that shows J how to be honorable yet awesome in his new life as a one hander.   I never followed that through to the conclusion that Brienne was the prophecy woman.   Hmmm.   Cuz it's tough to envision brienne wrastling the throne away from queen C.  , where Sansa or Arya or Duhnerys would have dibs on that if the prophecy role was being assigned fairly.    (Hah!  Nothing else has been fair.) 

Jaime coming back to choke Cercei does seem at times a necessary payoff for reading so many pages, but I'm also very much a fan of Jaime finding purpose at the Wall front and letting his true disinterest in Cercei clear the way for some other valonqar to get 'er done.

 

Say, could Cercei's insanity be described as the younger , newer arrived queen on the scene who has cost Cersei a lot already with more to come?   She's taking everything away from herself, really.

 

[The Mother of The Others]

On 7/12/2017 at 10:16 AM, ravenous reader said:

  have you ever considered the sentence might read, '...until there comes an Other...to cast you down'?!   

That's a great point about Brienne emerging as a POV in tandem with the prophecy 

 

!  Hyper whoa if we get an urban Otherization plot.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Forever it's been evident Brienne is stealing Jaime from Cercei with her hot example of knighthood that shows J how to be honorable yet awesome in his new life as a one hander.   I never followed that through to the conclusion that Brienne was the prophecy woman.   Hmmm.   Cuz it's tough to envision brienne wrastling the throne away from queen C.  , where Sansa or Arya or Duhnerys would have dibs on that if the prophecy role was being assigned fairly.    (Hah!  Nothing else has been fair.) 

Jaime coming back to choke Cercei does seem at times a necessary payoff for reading so many pages, but I'm also very much a fan of Jaime finding purpose at the Wall front and letting his true disinterest in Cercei clear the way for some other valonqar to get 'er done.

 

Say, could Cercei's insanity be described as the younger , newer arrived queen on the scene who has cost Cersei a lot already with more to come?   She's taking everything away from herself, really.

 

Brienne seems to hsve already taken Jaime away from Cersei. If Jaime casts Cersei down it will be at least in part due to Brienne’s influence. And Aegon might be inclined to allow Jaime to take the black. 

[Rufus Snow]

Some good delving in this thread - I'd never considered Brienne in this light before, but it does make sense.

Especially taking the 'Evenstar' connection to Venus and all the associated imagery. Venus is also the Morning Star, its orbit means it can only be seen when the sun is below the horizon - sometimes before dawn and sometimes after sunset. One extra element to pitch into the mix, especially in light (sorry, bad pun) of Cersei being cast as the sun: the seat of House Tarth is Evenfall - another way to say 'sunset'.