[Spoilers] EP701

[Queen of Winter]

Did anyone notice that Arya's speech to the Frey woman, after the men had been poisoned, sounded a lot like Tyrion's speech to the "Magistrate's" of Mereen in S6's episode "Battle of the Bastards Part 1"?

Last night Arya said: "When people ask you what happened here, tell them "The North Remembers". Tell them, Winter came for House Frey."

Last year Tyrion said: "Tell your people what happened here......... Remind them what happened when Daenerys  Stormborn and her dragons came to Mereen."

Edited July 18, 2017 by Queen of Winter

[fire&blood]

8 minutes ago, Queen of Winter said:

Did anyone notice that Arya's speech to the Frey woman, after the men had been poisoned, sounded a lot like Tyrion's speech to the "Magistrate's" of Mereen in of S6's "Battle of the Bastards Part 1"?

 

Last night Arya said: "When people ask you what happened here, tell them "The North Remembers". Tell them, Winter came for House Frey."

 

Last year Tyrion said: "Tell your people what happened here......... Remind them what happened when Daenerys  Stormborn and her dragons came to Mereen."

 

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was beautiful!

[UnmaskedLurker]

13 minutes ago, fire&blood said:

How did Euron and the Iron Islanders build so many ships in such a short time to have a new Iron Fleet? I can suspend belief and accept dragons existing, but there's no magic to build a huge fleet so fast.

I had basically the same thought. And the show even had Euron state to Cersei that Yara and Theon took his best ships -- but made no attempt to explain how he got some many good ships to travel to KL.

[Zumbs]

28 minutes ago, fire&blood said:

How did Euron and the Iron Islanders build so many ships in such a short time to have a new Iron Fleet? I can suspend belief and accept dragons existing, but there's no magic to build a huge fleet so fast.

To some extent, it would depend on the actual time scale involved. From Euron started building to getting to Kings landing, the other fleet sailed to Slavers Bay, parlayed with Daenerys, waited for Daenerys to finish her tasks at Slavers Bay, load the troops and sail to Dragonstone. This could easy be a period of months. Still, 1000 warships in a 2-3 months? Sounds very fast. Maybe they commandeered some of the ships on the way?

1 hour ago, Ser Sinister said:

On a side note, I laughed out loud when they rallied around Jon Snow as de facto head of House Stark, because we all know things none of the other Northern families know. Would they all unite under a Targaryen banner?

Assuming that the R+L=J theory is correct, Jon would still be half Stark. Same as he would be if he had been the son of Ned Stark.

[UnmaskedLurker]

4 minutes ago, Zumbs said:

 

Assuming that the R+L=J theory is correct, Jon would still be half Stark. Same as he would be if he had been the son of Ned Stark.

Yes, but his claim was in part based on being the son of Ned. If he is instead the son of Lyanna, his claim becomes much weaker as long as any other child of Ned lives (such as Sansa and obviously Bran who really would be first in line over Jon in any event).

[fire&blood]

39 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Yes, but his claim was in part based on being the son of Ned. If he is instead the son of Lyanna, his claim becomes much weaker as long as any other child of Ned lives (such as Sansa and obviously Bran who really would be first in line over Jon in any event).

I wonder....does Bran becoming the new 3 Eyed Raven preclude him from becoming Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North or King in the North? What happens if and when Bran arrives at Winterfell? I'm sure Dolores Edd will be sending a raven to Winterfell saying "I HAVE BRAN!!!"

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

3 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

No he didn't. He was stripped of the role by Tommen after his attempted assault on the Sept of Baelor to rescue Margaery

I know he offered to, sorry my bad.  I was at work and after I posted it, I second guessed myself.  I didn't know if I saw it in him being stripped in the show or read it in the book. I should haved researched it before I posted.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Did anyone else see this:

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Can-Dragonglass-Cure-Greyscale-Game-Thrones-43754092

I wonder if it's true.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Lady Snowsand
There is a topic for this

[Thor Odinson]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 11:09 PM, Christina Ceriddwynn said:

Gaaaah, Sansa is thinking small with her arguing.  Jon has seen beyond the wall and knows now is not the time for petty battles.  He needs every single living body on their side.  He did pretty much the same thing he did with the Wildlings...put aside petty differences for the greater good.

She's got her head on straight. Just because Jon sees the bigger threat doesn't mean everyone else does, or that everyone else isn't supremely petty. Jon absolutely has to take people like Cersei into account, because while Jon may see the bigger threat and will sacrifice anything and everything to overcome it, Cersei certainly won't. If anything, she'll try to find some way to turn the situation to her advantage. And if that means doing something that'll result in the deaths of 90% of the population of Westeros, she'll do it, so long as she gets to reign as queen over the remaining 10%. 

So yeah, Sansa's absolutely right, because she's seeing the threats which Jon refuses to acknowledge. And what happened the last time Jon did that? Oh yeah, HE DIED!!! He was killed by his fellow brothers of the Night's Watch. And unlike Cersei, they're fully aware of the danger posed by the White Walkers. And yet despite knowing that, they put their hate and fear of the Wildlings ahead of that and ahead of their loyalty to their Lord Commander. And Jon? If not for a magical resurrection, he'd be a rotting corpse right now.

Cersei cannot be relied upon to do the right thing under any circumstances, and she represents an extreme threat, especially if she pulls anything when they've got their backs against the wall fighting the White Walkers. Cersei has to go before that battle truly begins, just like how Jon couldn't just leave Ramsay Bolton alive.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[xjlxking]

54 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

She's got her head on straight. Just because Jon sees the bigger threat doesn't mean everyone else does, or that everyone else isn't supremely petty. Jon absolutely has to take people like Cersei into account, because while Jon may see the bigger threat and will sacrifice anything and everything to overcome it, Cersei certainly won't. If anything, she'll try to find some way to turn the situation to her advantage. And if that means doing something that'll result in the deaths of 90% of the population of Westeros, she'll do it, so long as she gets to reign as queen over the remaining 10%. 

So yeah, Sansa's absolutely right, because she's seeing the threats which Jon refuses to acknowledge. And what happened the last time Jon did that? Oh yeah, HE DIED!!! He was killed by his fellow brothers of the Night's Watch. And unlike Cersei, they're fully aware of the danger posed by the White Walkers. And yet despite knowing that, they put their hate and fear of the Wildlings ahead of that and ahead of their loyalty to their Lord Commander. And Jon? If not for a magical resurrection, he'd be a rotting corpse right now.

Cersei cannot be relied upon to do the right thing under any circumstances, and she represents an extreme threat, especially if she pulls anything when they've got their backs against the wall fighting the White Walkers. Cersei has to go before that battle truly begins, just like how Jon couldn't just leave Ramsay Bolton alive.

It's not that Jon doesn't view or acknowledge threats other than the White Walkers. He explained it perfectly well. it's winter, no one is going to attack the north now. He believes (with good reason) that it's going to be a winter that lasts a generations. He is thinking about defending strategic point in the north, equiping his army with the right weapons. He also knows there is a lady with dragons coming to Westeros. Sansa on the other hand is not really considering the big threat and still believes that it's about who gets the position of power. What's the point of thinking about Cersei now when an army of the dead is a months, if not weeks from attack the north? He is making preparations for them. Yet, Sansa is openly challenging him in front of everyone....

Yes, he died..we get it. His actions got him killed. Most of Sansa's actions could have gotten her killed. Hell, it's because of the actions of other that she is alive, including Jon. Jon basically start as a bastard with good training and education. He accomplished a lot more with what he was given. Sure he made mistake, but he made much more good, wise decisions than bad ones 

Edited July 19, 2017 by xjlxking

[Thor Odinson]

It's not that Jon doesn't view or acknowledge threats other than the White Walkers. He explained it perfectly well. it's winter, no one is going to attack the north now.

 

And yet in the very next scene we're shown how wrong he is, as Cersei is working out how to attack him. So Jon is totally wrong about his appraisal of the situation, which is Sansa's point. He completely underestimates Cersei, just as he underestimated Ramsay. He viewed Ramsay through the lens of the White Walkers, saying something like "I've faced worse than Ramsay Bolton", and his underestimating Ramsay very nearly got him and everyone with him killed (Note: Sansa warned Jon against underestimating Ramsay, too). Jon has a bad habit of underestimating humans, and it's already gotten him killed once. It very nearly got him killed again. And if he keeps underestimating Cersei, she's going to end up killing him, too. 

Sansa on the other hand is not really considering the big threat and still believes that it's about who gets the position of power.

Incorrect. It's about being aware of who wants you dead and why. Jon doesn't care about the game of thrones, but Cersei does. And right now she views Jon as a threat which needs to be eliminated. She doesn't give a piss about the White Walkers or anything like that.

What's the point of thinking about Cersei now when an army of the dead is a months, if not weeks from attack the north?

That sort of thinking is what'll get Jon killed, which is why Sansa is warning him about it. Picture this: they gather an army, they're trained, armed with obsidian, ready to fight the White Walkers. They engage the enemy... but oh wait, there's the Lannister army rampaging behind your lines, massacring your people, and sacking your castles. 

Robb Stark had the same exact line of thinking, and what happened to him? Oh yeah, while he was so focused with the enemy in front of him, the Ironborn sacked Winterfell and very nearly killed both of his younger brothers.

Yet, Sansa is openly challenging him in front of everyone....

That wasn't great, but it was obviously a decision he made on the spot, and which she couldn't dispute later. Which is why he should probably be making decisions behind closed doors in a Small Council meeting with Sansa, Davos, or whoever else before announcing them to the world.

Sansa is right to be worried about Cersei. Approximately 37% of the cast of the show would still be alive if they'd spent more time worrying about what Cersei was up to. That's not to take away from the threat of the White Walkers, but Jon DOES have to be smarter. Which means that he has to account for ALL of their potential enemies, not just one at a time, because they're NOT going to come at them one at time. Odds are, they're going to have to fight them all at the same time.

[Thor Odinson]

[ummester]

7 hours ago, Ser Sinister said:

In the show world, after Episode 1, are there any male offspring from the major Houses left to continue the family name?

Baratheon: None

Stark: Bran, but he won't end up leader of the Starks.

Lannister: Not unless Tyrion or Cersei have more kids or Jamie leaves the Kingsguard; i.e., very unlikely.

Tyrell: None

Greyjoy: Really hard to say, but doesn't seem like any of the men will see the end of the series, except maybe Theon (who isn't having kids).

Frey: Not after Episode 1.

Arryn: Who knows what the show is going to do with Robin?

Tully: Did Arya set Edmure free or will he be forgotten in a Frey dungeon for all eternity?

Martell: They don't follow the male-only heir rules, but it will still be interesting to see who's left at the end.

Sure, there are plenty of Lannister cousins mentioned in the books, but I'm talking in strict lines of inheritance from the original family heads (Tywin, Ned, Robert, etc.), as we've seen in the books.

On a side note, I laughed out loud when they rallied around Jon Snow as de facto head of House Stark, because we all know things none of the other Northern families know. Would they all unite under a Targaryen banner?

This is a good observation and I think relevant because a big part of the story, as I am interpreting it, is the destruction of Westeros and the Feudal system. The Game of Thrones is not meant to be won, it's meant to be ended, kind of thing.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

2 minutes ago, ummester said:

This is a good observation and I think relevant because a big part of the story, as I am interpreting it, is the destruction of Westeros and the Feudal system. The Game of Thrones is not meant to be won, it's meant to be ended, kind of thing.

Yep.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

But everyone dies.

So nobody really wins.

The only winning move is to not play.

[cue Dany "breaking the wheel"]

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Frances Bean Corbray

[Thor Odinson]

8 hours ago, fire&blood said:

How did Euron and the Iron Islanders build so many ships in such a short time to have a new Iron Fleet? I can suspend belief and accept dragons existing, but there's no magic to build a huge fleet so fast.

He wanted a thousand ship fleet, but I doubt they started at 0 ships. Yara, after all, stole a hundred, and they still had plenty of ships left. The actual number of ships built was probably far less than half of the total thousand he was looking to have.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

She's got her head on straight. Just because Jon sees the bigger threat doesn't mean everyone else does, or that everyone else isn't supremely petty. Jon absolutely has to take people like Cersei into account, because while Jon may see the bigger threat and will sacrifice anything and everything to overcome it, Cersei certainly won't. If anything, she'll try to find some way to turn the situation to her advantage. And if that means doing something that'll result in the deaths of 90% of the population of Westeros, she'll do it, so long as she gets to reign as queen over the remaining 10%. 

So yeah, Sansa's absolutely right, because she's seeing the threats which Jon refuses to acknowledge. And what happened the last time Jon did that? Oh yeah, HE DIED!!! He was killed by his fellow brothers of the Night's Watch. And unlike Cersei, they're fully aware of the danger posed by the White Walkers. And yet despite knowing that, they put their hate and fear of the Wildlings ahead of that and ahead of their loyalty to their Lord Commander. And Jon? If not for a magical resurrection, he'd be a rotting corpse right now.

Cersei cannot be relied upon to do the right thing under any circumstances, and she represents an extreme threat, especially if she pulls anything when they've got their backs against the wall fighting the White Walkers. Cersei has to go before that battle truly begins, just like how Jon couldn't just leave Ramsay Bolton alive.

I think it shows a pattern here - Jon focuses on the big threat so much that he glosses over people who have other agendas. Sansa was right to point it out to him but the way she did was bound to have little positive effect. Book Sansa is way more diplomatic, though it is understandable that the show Sansa, after her ordeal with Ramsay, wants to assert herself in a position of power.

[The Knight of Flours]

12 hours ago, Ser Sinister said:

In the show world, after Episode 1, are there any male offspring from the major Houses left to continue the family name?

Frey: Not after Episode 1.

Tully: Did Arya set Edmure free or will he be forgotten in a Frey dungeon for all eternity?

Well, there didn't seem to be too many young or baby Frey boys at the massacre, so I imagine there are still plenty out there..

Also, isn't Edmure imprisoned at RIverrun?  Everybody seems to be asking if Arya set him free, but I never thought he was supposed to be at the Twins.

[The Knight of Flours]

On 7/18/2017 at 9:44 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree with Jon's decision not to punish the Umber and Karstark children, but Sansa was right about visibly rewarding loyal houses for their fealty. 

There should still be plenty of Northern stuff to give away.  The Dreadfort & Hornwood for a start and either would be more attractive.

[Zumbs]

8 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

She's got her head on straight. Just because Jon sees the bigger threat doesn't mean everyone else does, or that everyone else isn't supremely petty. Jon absolutely has to take people like Cersei into account, because while Jon may see the bigger threat and will sacrifice anything and everything to overcome it, Cersei certainly won't. If anything, she'll try to find some way to turn the situation to her advantage. And if that means doing something that'll result in the deaths of 90% of the population of Westeros, she'll do it, so long as she gets to reign as queen over the remaining 10%.

If the series so far has shown us anything about how Cersei thinks, it is that she is extremely ruthless and very good at making plans that get her out ahead in the short term. However, she fails to consider her plan beyond her immediate objective, often causing her to land in bigger problems than before. So, yeah, even if she did see the white walkers as a huge problem (she does not even accept that they exist), she would still be likely to try to crush Jon and the North while he was fighting the white walkers.

7 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

And yet in the very next scene we're shown how wrong he is, as Cersei is working out how to attack him. So Jon is totally wrong about his appraisal of the situation, which is Sansa's point. He completely underestimates Cersei, just as he underestimated Ramsay. He viewed Ramsay through the lens of the White Walkers, saying something like "I've faced worse than Ramsay Bolton", and his underestimating Ramsay very nearly got him and everyone with him killed (Note: Sansa warned Jon against underestimating Ramsay, too). Jon has a bad habit of underestimating humans, and it's already gotten him killed once. It very nearly got him killed again. And if he keeps underestimating Cersei, she's going to end up killing him, too.

I viewed that scene slightly differently. That Jaime and Cersei (correctly IMO) ended up deciding that food triumps all else, so Highgarden would be their first objective. Jon could also hedge his bet by sending a small army, a maybe few hundred men, to Moat Cailing to hold the Neck. This would not protect him from the Iron Fleet (but he does not know about that yet), but it would make it extremely hard to march a Lannister army North.

In Jons shoes, however, I would be a lot more troubled by Littlefinger. He is in Winterfell, commanding the army of the Vale. While Littlefinger may actually have told the truth regarding his infatuation with Sansa, Littlefinger has no commitment at all to Jon. In fact, Jon could be a rival for his goal of the Iron throne. So, I could full well see Littlefinger working with Cersei to crush Jon from the inside.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I find it very odd how the thing that's bothering everyone the most about this episode is that Sansa dared disagree with Jon about a land dispute and that she styled her hair similarly to Cersei's. 

Sophie Turner must be some sort of prophet, because despite apparently loathing her, tons of people still believe all of her Starkbowl comments, even when it's pretty clear that that's all been PR. (Now there's a group of people who are claiming that Jon v. Sansa is a red herring for Arya v. Sansa which. .  . sure, maybe, by why? So they can squabble for two episodes before taking down Littlefinger?)

If anyone's a family traitor, it's probably Tyrion. Jaime has been protecting him his whole life, freed him from captivity, and now he's fighting alongside the women that killed Jaime's daughter in cold blood and want to kill him as well. I find that much more reprehensible than speaking up at a council meeting.