Which houses have the most Baratheon Blood?

[UFT]

i am aware the current baratheon line has some targaryen blood, including gendry. thats where robert got his claim. so lets say in WoW stannis and shireen meet their ends.

what about martells, lannisters etc?

if so, which have the strongest claim to the iron throne? 

post a list below if you can of the line of succession going from stannis to shireen onwards.

 

 

[Denam_Pavel]

Robert had a Targaryen grandmother and right of conquest. His grandparents would not have any remaining legitimate descendants should Stannis and Shireen die. They'd either have to legimitise a bastard or appoint a ruler based on merits very different from Robert.

[TMIFairy]

Sorry, misunderstood OP.

AFAIK we have nothing about Baratheon side branches, be these by sword or distaff.

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

The orphanage where Gendry works houses the most Baratheon blood, seeing as at least half of those kids are probably Robert's.

[Aegon Baratheon]

if/when Stannis and Shireen fall, who would have the best claim to the throne if were considering baratheon blood? At this point its hard to say which houses have baratheon blood, but considering baratheon/durrandon blood is strong, descendants with this blood should be noticable.

A wiki of ice and fire claims that the Storm Lords Bolling and Wensington may be baratheon descendants/claimants considering how they all have baratheon or durrandon stags on their heraldry. 

Otherwise, Corwen Baratheons daughter Elyanna may have married into house lannister, her descendants may have been tytos, tywin and jaime...but take that for what its worth.

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Velaryons must have some from times gone by. If Orys and Aegon really were brothers then the Targaryen and Baratheon bloodlines are bound to share some similiarities aswell. I would assume the Celtigars would have at least proposed a marriage to the Stag thoughout the years too.

Orys, Robert and Renly each fell in love with someone with dark hair, so Stormland/Crownland houses with brown to black hair might be a good shout for some Stag DNA.

[Lord Varys]

If Tommen/Shireen and Stannis/Shireen are gone people wouldn't look for Baratheon cousins descended from brothers, uncles, or the father, grandfather, etc. of Ormund Baratheon since those people really don't have royal blood. People would look for other descendants of King Maekar, Aegon the Unworthy, or even Aegon III.

Robert's claim to the Iron Throne comes from Aegon V. The Baratheon line itself isn't royal, and not all their ancestors and cousins who aren't descended from Targaryens become royal retroactively just because Robert sat the throne. That's not how it works.

That said, we really don't know which house is the closest Baratheon cousin though the female line. Steffon was apparently an only child, and Ormund seems to have had a brother, Ser Harbert, Robert's granduncle who was castellan of Storm's End when Steffon and Cassana drowned. But we don't know whether he had any surviving children even if he was an uncle on the Baratheon side (which is pretty likely since he sure as hell wasn't Rhaelle's brother but he could have been the brother of Cassana's father or mother). I think we can take it as a given that Stannis and Tommen are the last male Baratheons of the main branch around.

The closest Baratheon cousins should be in the Stormlands. The Tarths are a pretty good candidate considering that blood ties are confirmed there. The Estermonts are not unlikely, either, and one also assumes the Baratheons often intermarried with some of the Marcher Lords.

Perhaps TWoW will cast some light on this whole thing when Aegon decides whom he is going to grant Storm's End after he has taken KL. Could be that he decides to bestow the castle and its incomes on some Baratheon cousin - or at least considers or is asked to do that.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-07-15 at 10:14 AM, UFT said:

i am aware the current baratheon line has some targaryen blood, including gendry. thats where robert got his claim. so lets say in WoW stannis and shireen meet their ends.

what about martells, lannisters etc?

if so, which have the strongest claim to the iron throne? 

post a list below if you can of the line of succession going from stannis to shireen onwards

The way I see is that there is not need to search for Baratheon blood if Stannis and Shireen dies because there are already legal Baratheons in King's Landing holding the Iron Throne. As such we would need to also see Tommen and Myrcella die before we must look outside of House Baratheon for a candidate. But if all Baratheons would die then the quest will not be to find someone with ancient descent but rather someone who has more recent connections with House Baratheon. The most obvious answer to this would be the House that married with Lyonel's daughter or to pick someone for the throne in a "Grand Council" kind of thing who is pretty unrelated but on the side of the ruling powers at court, in other words the Lannisters and Tyrells. Most certainly some puppet for these Great Houses rather than a strong king in his own right.

No way that people with power would clamour for a Targaryen though. There may well be some leading to a kind of Aenys Blackfyre situation but odds are that both Lannister and Tyrell would handle a contender like that in the same way. If the Targaryens want the throne back, they'll have to take by strength of arms, rather than be invited back to it.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No way that people with power would clamour for a Targaryen though. There may well be some leading to a kind of Aenys Blackfyre situation but odds are that both Lannister and Tyrell would handle a contender like that in the same way. If the Targaryens want the throne back, they'll have to take by strength of arms, rather than be invited back to it.

How do you know that - if Robert and his entire family (Robert, Cersei, the children, Stannis, Renly, Shireen) had gone down with a ship during some pleasure vacation to Lys many of the lords of the Realm - especially the Martells, and many from the Reach, the Riverlands, and the Crownlands - would have insisted that Viserys III be recalled and offered the crown. Who else could be a candidate that would universally accepted?

And even now a Targaryen would be the candidate to ally with in a similar situation. The Tyrells or Lannisters cannot hope to take the Iron Throne in their own right.

[Lion of the West]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that - if Robert and his entire family (Robert, Cersei, the children, Stannis, Renly, Shireen) had gone down with a ship during some pleasure vacation to Lys many of the lords of the Realm - especially the Martells, and many from the Reach, the Riverlands, and the Crownlands - would have insisted that Viserys III be recalled and offered the crown. Who else could be a candidate that would universally accepted?

And even now a Targaryen would be the candidate to ally with in a similar situation. The Tyrells or Lannisters cannot hope to take the Iron Throne in their own right.

The Begger King would certainly lack the prestige to claim the throne with the respect of the lords and he would most certainly not be able to make the former rebels accept a vengeance minded idiot to take the throne. It would only be a set-up for a new major war as there's no way that Viserys III would be able to do a Aegon III and hela the realm rrathern than re-open hostilities as soon as his ass touch the chair.

A perfectly acceptable candidate would be Edric Storm. He was born of noble parents, known to be Robert's and is acknowledged as Robert's natural son. So there's a perfectly good contender for the title of king without running after disgraced Targaryen exiles.

We don't yet know what the limits to the House Tyrell and Lannister are yet. But I don't think its out of the question that the two of them could hash something out, if Cersei was gone, but with Cersei in power everything will certainly become less likely to work.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The Begger King would certainly lack the prestige to claim the throne with the respect of the lords and he would most certainly not be able to make the former rebels accept a vengeance minded idiot to take the throne. It would only be a set-up for a new major war as there's no way that Viserys III would be able to do a Aegon III and hela the realm rrathern than re-open hostilities as soon as his ass touch the chair.

Viserys III was neither particularly vengeful nor that much of a laughingstock. Sure, he is called the Beggar King because he doesn't have any kingdom but that can change. With no Baratheons around - which half the Realm sees as usurpers anyway - the remaining Targaryen loyalists most definitely would try to recall him. That's what the Martells worked towards in the books, anyway. And many other lords would rediscover their old Targaryen loyalty in the process of this whole thing, especially considering that they could try to marry their daughters to the young king.

Sure, the Lannisters might face retribution from House Targaryen, but the Starks shouldn't face anything like that if they introduced Viserys III to his nephew, Jon Snow. But Viserys would forgive anyone who was supporting his claim. All the man ever wanted was a crown and being loved by his people. He was no cruel guy.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

A perfectly acceptable candidate would be Edric Storm. He was born of noble parents, known to be Robert's and is acknowledged as Robert's natural son. So there's a perfectly good contender for the title of king without running after disgraced Targaryen exiles.

He still is a bastard. And nobody wants to bow to a bastard. And why should they? Not to mention that he is still a child. In addition, if the Baratheons would truly be gone there would be nobody left to champion their cause.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

We don't yet know what the limits to the House Tyrell and Lannister are yet. But I don't think its out of the question that the two of them could hash something out, if Cersei was gone, but with Cersei in power everything will certainly become less likely to work.

They still can't claim the Iron Throne and expect people to accept this. Royal blood counts in this world, not raw power. If the latter counted the Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, etc. would have long been put down and replaced by their own stewards and household knights.

There is a reason my Mace doesn't put Tommen out of his misery and crowns himself instead. He can't. Appearances do matter. Legitimacy matters.

The customs in the Seven Kingdoms are different from those beyond the Wall or among the Dothraki. There nobody would be bow to a child king or call some exiles back who have a royal name. 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/15/2017 at 3:00 AM, Denam_Pavel said:

Robert had a Targaryen grandmother and right of conquest. His grandparents would not have any remaining legitimate descendants should Stannis and Shireen die. They'd either have to legimitise a bastard or appoint a ruler based on merits very different from Robert.

What do you mean by "merits very different from Robert"?

 

Probably some house in the Stormlands.

[norwaywolf123]

On 15.7.2017 at 10:14 AM, UFT said:

i am aware the current baratheon line has some targaryen blood, including gendry. thats where robert got his claim. so lets say in WoW stannis and shireen meet their ends.

what about martells, lannisters etc?

if so, which have the strongest claim to the iron throne? 

post a list below if you can of the line of succession going from stannis to shireen onwards.

 

 

Stannis and Shireen are the last trueborn baratheon descendants of Rhaelle Targaryen whom Robert used to sterngthen his claim. Edric Storm who is one of roberts bastards is the only other commenly known descendant of rhaelle.

[Kytheros]

Hell, if all the Baratheons are dead, and the succession in dispute/going back to House Targaryen,  it's not totally impossible that Ned wouldn't drop the "Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna" bomb on everyone. Depends on what he promised Lyanna, I suppose, and whether or not Ned has some way to prove what he's saying.

Would probably need to arrange a marriage between Jon and either Margaery Tyrell or Arianne Martell (since she's the only trueborn daughter of House Martell), though.

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Hell, if all the Baratheons are dead, and the succession in dispute/going back to House Targaryen,  it's not totally impossible that Ned wouldn't drop the "Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna" bomb on everyone. Depends on what he promised Lyanna, I suppose, and whether or not Ned has some way to prove what he's saying.

Resurrection might lend credence to his words, I'd guess.

[Lion of the West]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys III was neither particularly vengeful nor that much of a laughingstock. Sure, he is called the Beggar King because he doesn't have any kingdom but that can change. With no Baratheons around - which half the Realm sees as usurpers anyway - the remaining Targaryen loyalists most definitely would try to recall him. That's what the Martells worked towards in the books, anyway. And many other lords would rediscover their old Targaryen loyalty in the process of this whole thing, especially considering that they could try to marry their daughters to the young king.

He was both as was noted by both Danaerys and Jorah Mormont. And half the realm don't see the Baratheons as usurpers, in fact I'd wager that a significant degree of people have turned around to accept the Baratheons as, you know, the victors in the war that settled it. While there's surely people who did favor and still may possess warm feelings for the Targaryens these are a dying breed as seen with Darry and the total lack of interest in any kind of Targaryen resurgence among nobility is clear.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, the Lannisters might face retribution from House Targaryen, but the Starks shouldn't face anything like that if they introduced Viserys III to his nephew, Jon Snow. But Viserys would forgive anyone who was supporting his claim. All the man ever wanted was a crown and being loved by his people. He was no cruel guy.

And that's one Great House who will oppose it. Will Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn welcome back the Targaryens? Will Littlefinger who plays Lysa Arryn? No. They won't. Not to mention its a hilarious conept that the Usurper's dog makes a 180 degree turnaround and tries to pass off the bastard he has claimed to have been his own as Rhaegar's son, without any evidence but his word, to Viserys who already hates him.

The cruelty and rampaging selfishness of Viserys is well documented. He didn't start out like that but like many misfortunes changed him for the worse and that's what he became. A man who terrorize his own sister and treats her more as a pet than a person. And then we can take how Viserys acted with the Dothraki. Its clear that Viserys has no, and I repeat, no, ability to change to new circumstances and is traped in his fantasy world about him being a king and is unconcerned with reality even when his life is in danger. He would be a new Aerys II to provoke a new major rebellion within a war when he starts to scream and rage about cutting off the heads of powerful lords.

This does not mean that I can't feel empathy for Viserys. I really do, but he would need to go through ALOT of change before he would be fit for kingship. A lot.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He still is a bastard. And nobody wants to bow to a bastard. And why should they? Not to mention that he is still a child. In addition, if the Baratheons would truly be gone there would be nobody left to champion their cause.

Edric Storm has royal blood and is recognized as such by the realm. People were willing to bow to Addam of the Hull and Daemon Blackfyre so obviously there's alot of people who have no particular problem with serving under a bastard. As for people to champion their cases there's Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn to start with, throw in the Tullys and possibly Tywin Lannister who will oppose any vacum for the Targaryens to return with and you've got a good solid alliance.

And you may say that Eddard would champion Jon Snow. Well, then its queer that he sends Jon off to the Watch while bethroted his daughter to the Baratheon crown prince.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They still can't claim the Iron Throne and expect people to accept this. Royal blood counts in this world, not raw power. If the latter counted the Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, etc. would have long been put down and replaced by their own stewards and household knights.

Its arguebly a new situation so we won't know how people will react to it. They may absolutely kick back, or they might go along with it as a necessity of war times.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a reason my Mace doesn't put Tommen out of his misery and crowns himself instead. He can't. Appearances do matter. Legitimacy matters.

I agree entirely. But if there are no Baratheons around, you still won't surrender to your enemies, you fight on regardless. When Tywin and Kevan discovered that Robert's "kids" were not his, they didn't summon Stannis to become king, but they moved ahead with what they got. I see no reason as to why this would be different.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The customs in the Seven Kingdoms are different from those beyond the Wall or among the Dothraki. There nobody would be bow to a child king or call some exiles back who have a royal name. 

I agree pretty much.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

He was both as was noted by both Danaerys and Jorah Mormont. And half the realm don't see the Baratheons as usurpers, in fact I'd wager that a significant degree of people have turned around to accept the Baratheons as, you know, the victors in the war that settled it. While there's surely people who did favor and still may possess warm feelings for the Targaryens these are a dying breed as seen with Darry and the total lack of interest in any kind of Targaryen resurgence among nobility is clear.

Half the Realm or more will now declare for Aegon. The same people would have decided to offer the crown to Viserys had the Baratheons suddenly been gone. And that's the scenario I'm talking about here.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And that's one Great House who will oppose it. Will Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn welcome back the Targaryens? Will Littlefinger who plays Lysa Arryn? No. They won't. Not to mention its a hilarious conept that the Usurper's dog makes a 180 degree turnaround and tries to pass off the bastard he has claimed to have been his own as Rhaegar's son, without any evidence but his word, to Viserys who already hates him.

If your usurper king and his line are gone you turn to the rightful dynasty. That's how it is.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The cruelty and rampaging selfishness of Viserys is well documented. He didn't start out like that but like many misfortunes changed him for the worse and that's what he became. A man who terrorize his own sister and treats her more as a pet than a person. And then we can take how Viserys acted with the Dothraki. Its clear that Viserys has no, and I repeat, no, ability to change to new circumstances and is traped in his fantasy world about him being a king and is unconcerned with reality even when his life is in danger. He would be a new Aerys II to provoke a new major rebellion within a war when he starts to scream and rage about cutting off the heads of powerful lords.

LOL, no. Nobody actually knows Viserys III or cares about his personality. He would just be a name, but a name is enough. Just as the name 'Daemon Blackfyre' was enough for those men to assemble at Whitewalls.

The lords could either crown Viserys or rip the Realm to pieces.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Edric Storm has royal blood and is recognized as such by the realm. People were willing to bow to Addam of the Hull and Daemon Blackfyre so obviously there's alot of people who have no particular problem with serving under a bastard. As for people to champion their cases there's Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn to start with, throw in the Tullys and possibly Tywin Lannister who will oppose any vacum for the Targaryens to return with and you've got a good solid alliance.

Those were legitimized bastards. Nobody did legitimize Edric, nor would there any such person around with Robert and his trueborn family dead. Bastardy doesn't go away because you try to ignore it.

4 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And you may say that Eddard would champion Jon Snow. Well, then its queer that he sends Jon off to the Watch while bethroted his daughter to the Baratheon crown prince.

He would change his whole attitude when the Baratheons are gone.

Viserys III is his in-law already. Ned chose a friend over his rightful king but if that friend and his family are gone things are going to be much different.

[Lion of the West]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Half the Realm or more will now declare for Aegon. The same people would have decided to offer the crown to Viserys had the Baratheons suddenly been gone. And that's the scenario I'm talking about here.

Half the realm and probably more will declare against Aegon in favor of Edric Storm. That's the scenario which I am talking about.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If your usurper king and his line are gone you turn to the rightful dynasty. That's how it is.

No. Once deposed always deposed. There has to my knowledge not been a single incident of a deposed House returning to its former holdings.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. Nobody actually knows Viserys III or cares about his personality. He would just be a name, but a name is enough. Just as the name 'Daemon Blackfyre' was enough for those men to assemble at Whitewalls.

Maybe. But within a year Viserys would have disabused anyone of the notion that he was anything but a lunatic.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The lords could either crown Viserys or rip the Realm to pieces.

Or they crown Edric Storm as Edric Baratheon and everything moves on as before.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those were legitimized bastards. Nobody did legitimize Edric, nor would there any such person around with Robert and his trueborn family dead. Bastardy doesn't go away because you try to ignore it.

Here you are very wrong. Jon Arryn would be alive and Jon Arryn would be the Hand of the King to speak with the voice of the king until a king is found, just like Bloodraven did after Maekar's death. Lord Arryn can either summon a great council or more likely legitimize Edric Storm as Edric Baratheon and crown him as king. Problem solved.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He would change his whole attitude when the Baratheons are gone.

No he wouldn't. He would be the same as before.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys III is his in-law already. Ned chose a friend over his rightful king but if that friend and his family are gone things are going to be much different.

Viserys would never believe a word from the usurper's dog and Eddard is, probably, smart enough to realize at least that.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Half the realm and probably more will declare against Aegon in favor of Edric Storm. That's the scenario which I am talking about.

Not for a bastard child.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

No. Once deposed always deposed. There has to my knowledge not been a single incident of a deposed House returning to its former holdings.

What about the Starks right now? Or Aegon II who was deposed by his half-sister Rhaenyra? Or Jaehaerys I who was disinherited by his uncle Maegor? Or Daenerys and Aegon Targaryen? Those people don't come as foreign conquerors, they come as representatives of the rightful royal dynasty of the lands, and people will do them homage as such.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Maybe. But within a year Viserys would have disabused anyone of the notion that he was anything but a lunatic.

How do you know that? The man isn't a madman. He would be everyone's favorite because he has no idea how properly rule a kingdom and because he has an open ear to anyone sucking up to him. Viserys is not Joffrey. And how he treats his little sister in their bedchamber is completely irrelevant.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Or they crown Edric Storm as Edric Baratheon and everything moves on as before.

Perhaps some people might try that. But if the people have to choose between a Targaryen king and a usurper's bastard it is quite obvious who they would choose.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Here you are very wrong. Jon Arryn would be alive and Jon Arryn would be the Hand of the King to speak with the voice of the king until a king is found, just like Bloodraven did after Maekar's death. Lord Arryn can either summon a great council or more likely legitimize Edric Storm as Edric Baratheon and crown him as king. Problem solved.

We have no reason to believe that Hands can legitimize bastards. Not to mention that there is no reason to believe that Jon Arryn would want to bend the knee to a bastard king. Why should he want to do that?

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Viserys would never believe a word from the usurper's dog and Eddard is, probably, smart enough to realize at least that.

Viserys would kiss and embrace Eddard Stark if the man decided to support his bid for the Iron Throne. And he sure as hell would buy the story about Jon Snow if Ned laid it out to him. Viserys' only hates those 'Usurper's Dogs' because they prevent him from taking his birthright. If their attitude changed he would have no issue with those men aside from the Lannisters.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not for a bastard child.

They would for a king's bastard.

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

What about the Starks right now? Or Aegon II who was deposed by his half-sister Rhaenyra? Or Jaehaerys I who was disinherited by his uncle Maegor? Or Daenerys and Aegon Targaryen? Those people don't come as foreign conquerors, they come as representatives of the rightful royal dynasty of the lands, and people will do them homage as such.

The Starks haven't regained anything. The Bolton holds the lands and its the Baratheons, those evil wicked Baratheons who are fighting to expel the Boltons, not any Starks.

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? The man isn't a madman. He would be everyone's favorite because he has no idea how properly rule a kingdom and because he has an open ear to anyone sucking up to him. Viserys is not Joffrey. And how he treats his little sister in their bedchamber is completely irrelevant.

I've read the books. Viserys is a lunatic trapped in a fantasy world and unable to deal with reality. There's no reason to think he'd break out as a balanced and stabile person if he was pampered some. I am of the opinion that if you don't have training for or experience with something, you're not going to excell at it, thus Viserys isn't going to excell at ruling anything, let alone the Seven Kingdoms. And the fact that Viserys both uses threats and direct physical abuse against his sister as well as holding Danaerys as a pet more than a person does not tell well for his people management skills. He'll be hated within a forthnight.

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps some people might try that. But if the people have to choose between a Targaryen king and a usurper's bastard it is quite obvious who they would choose.

Indeed. They'll pick a new Baratheon, just like they scrambled for a Baratheon during the start of the War of Five Kings and no one cared to even raise the possibility of a new Targaryen. And in fact even after Renly was dead and the news of Joffrey's parentage was out, no one still lifted a finger to get a Targaryen across the waters. So much for the loyalty to the House of the Dragon.

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

We have no reason to believe that Hands can legitimize bastards. Not to mention that there is no reason to believe that Jon Arryn would want to bend the knee to a bastard king. Why should he want to do that?

Of course they can. Kings can legitimize bastards and the Hand speaks with the king's voice. Until the king counteracts the Hand, what the Hand does is standing. Especially when there's no king around. Just like Bloodraven could summon a Great Council to decide who should be the next king after Maekar.

And I base the idea of Jon Arryn putting Edric Baratheon on the throne because Jon Arryn is an honorable man of integrity. Not a Targaryen lickspittle sucking up for the chance of a morsel.

On 2017-09-06 at 6:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Viserys would kiss and embrace Eddard Stark if the man decided to support his bid for the Iron Throne. And he sure as hell would buy the story about Jon Snow if Ned laid it out to him. Viserys' only hates those 'Usurper's Dogs' because they prevent him from taking his birthright. If their attitude changed he would have no issue with those men aside from the Lannisters.

No, Viserys would take Eddard's head and wave it infront of Jon Snow's face to prove his power. Viserys hates the usurper's dogs because they defeated the Targaryens. There is no coming back from that in regards to that madman.