Magnar, P.I. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 9/12/2017 at 11:05 AM, Kytheros said: It's not definite that Jon is actually dead/killed at the end of Dance. We need to remember that. I'm more inclined to think that Jon is going to undergo a very near death experience, and when he eventually recovers, he'll be more magically awakened, instead of actually dying and being resurrected/reanimated. Jon, like Bran, is likely to have an extended recovery period, where it's unclear whether or not he'll pull through, but he'll come out more magically aware/awakened than before. Fantastic point. All we know for sure is that Wick Whittlestick "barely grazed his skin" trying to slash his throat and Bowen Marsh punch-stabbed him in the gut. The "third dagger took him between the shoulder blades," which is a little unclear but definitely sounds bad. Finally, he "never felt the fourth knife." It does not say what the fourth knife did, it implies that it did something he should have felt, but who knows, somebody could have hit him with the hilt or something. We only have undeniable evidence of one serious wound to Jon's person, with strong evidence of a second and light evidence of a third. None of these wounds, even compounded together, stack up to any of the deaths of Beric Dondarrion, or even of the wounds that Ser Loras supposedly suffered in the assault on Dragonstone, which he survived, at least so far. On top of that I would expect the extreme cold and direct contact with snow to slow Jon's blood loss somewhat, but then again I'm not a physician. This may all sound like I'm reaching, but I think we can agree that we can't trust most deaths without explicit and undeniable evidence. If you don't believe me, just ask Mance, Davos, Bran, Rickon, Jon Connington and both Cleganes. Jon's situation as we know it right now doesn't require resurrection to bring him back into the story. Maybe some Ironborn-style CPR and some intensive maester healing, but not crazy bloodmagic which may or may not even exist in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 11/27/2017 at 11:43 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: We have no idea what damage Coldhands took. I mean physical damage. Coming back from death doesn't repair the damage. Cat and Beric don't look like they've been to the body shop for repairs. They're walking around and still carrying the wounds that killed them. The body damage is not repaired but the body somehow continues to live. Therefore, they are no longer human. A human could not live with a gaping throat that Cat has. If Jon does come back, he comes back as a wight because those stab wounds are fatal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mordred said: The body damage is not repaired but the body somehow continues to live. Therefore, they are no longer human. A human could not live with a gaping throat that Cat has. If Jon does come back, he comes back as a wight because those stab wounds are fatal. Nope. You're going in the wrong direction entirely. It's not that they're not human anymore and therefore can live on with their wounds/physically damaged. It's that they are humans but not alive anymore. They're undead, zombies, wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen Marsh Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Jon is the wight wolf after all. I hope he does become a wight and stay that way for the rest of his "life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 6:59 PM, Mordred said: The body damage is not repaired but the body somehow continues to live. Therefore, they are no longer human. A human could not live with a gaping throat that Cat has. If Jon does come back, he comes back as a wight because those stab wounds are fatal. Lord Snowballs now has built in ventilation. Courtesy of Bowen Marsh. What a way to get fired! The Freys (Black Walder, was it?) gave Catelyn the kind of cut that humans can't survive with. It was a fatal cut, from side to side. So Catelyn isn't human any more. Jon's holes are almost as bad and very likely fatal. Should he come back, he comes back not as a human but a wight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 7:13 PM, kissdbyfire said: Nope. You're going in the wrong direction entirely. It's not that they're not human anymore and therefore can live on with their wounds/physically damaged. It's that they are humans but not alive anymore. They're undead, zombies, wights. Nope. You're wrong. They died from a mortal wound. Damage severe enough to stop them from breathing. That wound is not repaired. Now something or someone brings them back in action and moving around. So no, they are no longer human. A human cannot continue to function with that kind of damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 21 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Lord Snowballs now has built in ventilation. Courtesy of Bowen Marsh. What a way to get fired! The Freys (Black Walder, was it?) gave Catelyn the kind of cut that humans can't survive with. It was a fatal cut, from side to side. So Catelyn isn't human any more. Jon's holes are almost as bad and very likely fatal. Should he come back, he comes back not as a human but a wight. Better call the plumber, the Jon is leaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 3 hours ago, Mordred said: Nope. You're wrong. They died from a mortal wound. Damage severe enough to stop them from breathing. That wound is not repaired. Now something or someone brings them back in action and moving around. So no, they are no longer human. A human cannot continue to function with that kind of damage. Your argument is, quite frankly, ludicrous. A human irl cannot be brought back from the dead. Same thing as irl there are no dragons. Or skinchangers. Etc. This however is a work of fiction, and a fantasy to boot. So human beings are brought back from death, and they remain human. It's quite simple and straightforward, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Man Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 8 hours ago, Mordred said: Better call the plumber, the Jon is leaking. Nah, let the Jon leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 On 02/22/2018 at 0:59 AM, Mordred said: The body damage is not repaired but the body somehow continues to live. Therefore, they are no longer human. A human could not live with a gaping throat that Cat has. If Jon does come back, he comes back as a wight because those stab wounds are fatal. And what about Beric Dondarrion who was killed and resurrected six times and showed more “humanity” than many of his peers and enemies? “Wight” is just a word… If Jon comes back there's no reason to think that he will have lost his human qualities… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar, P.I. Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 On 7/15/2017 at 8:17 AM, TMIFairy said: Interesting! A refreshing change from "Jon resurrected, marries aunt, saves world" Too true! And I don't think it's fair to call this trolling, either, as I think there's something to be said for this theory. There is evidence to suggest that an attack from the Others was imminent when Jon was stabbed... First, the conspiracy against Jon calls back to Chett's conspiracy against the Old Bear in ASOS, which was aborted when the Others attacked. In the prologue to the whole series we see the black brother Gared almost defy Waymar Royce right before the latter 'danced' with an Other. It seems that mutiny and conspiracy is connected to the Others, perhaps amplified by their proximity. Second, when Jon got stabbed, "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" Of course we know the Others are related to the cold, though at one point Sam questions whether they bring the cold themselves or just come when it's cold. Still, stabbing is supposed to be incredibly painful, so it seems kind of weird to me that he would stop feeling the stabs after only three, whether cold or not. That's not enough time for him to be bleeding out and going numb yet either. Adrenaline could be the answer, but if so his response should have been a little more vigorous. The main problem I have with this is Jon willingly leading the army of the wights against humanity. I could see him discovering the truth about the Others and trying to champion them peacefully, or his body getting resurrected and used for evil while his true consciousness is inside of Ghost (or lost forever or something) but not willingly and knowingly joining the wights as a full-fledged baddie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 On 2/24/2018 at 1:28 PM, Mordred said: Better call the plumber, the Jon is leaking. You guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostlyMoody Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 7/15/2017 at 4:32 PM, Adam Yozza said: That's not George's style. On 7/15/2017 at 4:32 PM, Adam Yozza said: "Jon resurrected, saves world" Really makes you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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