Heresy 201 and onward we go...

[Frey family reunion]

34 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

You mean the human body is a greater factor in the decay of cloth than the environment (north of the wall) ? 

(The sample of continously worn black clothing decay in an icy environment is not exactly huge)

Gared is probably constantly sweating into his clothes, and eating whatever greasy morsels he can get his hands on.  Coldhand, probably isn't sweating, and is basically a cold slab of meat covered in cloth.  He's also in a colder climate which would limit decay somewhat.  And of course whenever he wants a change of clothing he can always find himself a couple of night's watch rangers or deserters, and take their clothes after he cooks them up and serves them as "pork".

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I would say that CH was a ranger while alive and still a ranger.  I can see him still answering to a lord commander of the watch whether that's BR or someone else.  It doesn't seem his watch is ended even though he's dead.

Perhaps Coldhands himself was a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

[SirArthur]

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Gared is probably constantly sweating into his clothes, and eating whatever greasy morsels he can get his hands on.  Coldhand, probably isn't sweating, and is basically a cold slab of meat covered in cloth.  He's also in a colder climate which would limit decay somewhat.  And of course whenever he wants a change of clothing he can always find himself a couple of night's watch rangers or deserters, and take their clothes after he cooks them up and serves them as "pork".

Ok. You convinced me.

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps Coldhands himself was a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

I wouldn't dismiss that either.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

You mean the human body is a greater factor in the decay of cloth than the environment (north of the wall) ? 

(The sample of continously worn black clothing decay in an icy environment is not exactly huge)

Sort of, yes. The condition of the wights varies enormously and while some like Tormund's son die and immediately awake with a blue light in their eyes I get the impression some were dead for quite some time before rising. There are rangers among them, but apart from the dead from the Fist who were obviously quite "fresh" I didn't get the impression that proportionately there were that many, and were added by GRRM for effect rather than any suggestion of significance.

I do firmly think however that the cold which wakes them also preserves them and that the process of decay is "frozen" - for so long as the spell lasts

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps Coldhands himself was a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Its possible, I even remember suggestions that "long ago" might be a clue that he was the Nights KIng.

Personally I reckon he's much further down the food chain and may just be the Russian to Bloodraven's Kurtz - all depends whether he turns us again.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its possible, I even remember suggestions that "long ago" might be a clue that he was the Nights KIng.

Personally I reckon he's much further down the food chain and may just be the Russian to Bloodraven's Kurtz - all depends whether he turns us again.

I tend to doubt that he is the Night's King.  But I do think he may be Lord Qorgyle, possessing the black eyes of the salty, dornish.  As for "Leaf's" comment about "long ago", I am starting to wonder a bit if "Leaf" is who she appears to be.  After all, if Mance can be disguised as Rattleshirt...

[Matthew.]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm very much on board with this possibility.  Consider Euron's personal sigil, two crows and a blood eye.  I think this really represents three eyes; two crows eyes and one blood eye.  In the wiki, the red eye has been changed from something that used to be like the eye of sauron.  So I think we are taking about another 3EC to go to a previous question of Brad Starks. I don't think this is the first time in Westerosi history that a 3EC has been in the picture. Possibly something that has been able to extend it's life over and over again in the same manner as Varamyr or by some other means we don't know about yet.

I think it's entirely possible that Euron is an abomination housing the soul of another at certain times.  Something that wants to be reborn and all of Euron's efforts are bent in that direction. Some thing that identifies itself as the first storm and the last.

I really like that read of his sigil, especially in relation to the theory certain Heretics have raised that Euron is a failed greenseer--perhaps even a failed apprentice of Bloodraven.

I wonder if GRRM is going for contrasting ideas with the two sadistic antagonists - Ramsay and Euron - that have come to the fore in the aftermath of ASOS. Ramsay embodies terror of the flesh, carnality taken to its extremes, and Euron embodies terror of the spirit, blasphemy taken to its extremes. He's the godless man.

In addition to the vision you cited from the Forsaken, there's also this comment to Aeron:

Spoiler

"All gods are lies, but yours is laughable. A pale white thing in the likeness of a man, his limbs broken and swollen and his hair flipping in the water while fish nibble at his face. What fool would worship that?"

Perhaps Euron understands the magic of Planetos, independent of its underlying superstitions, and this accounts for his bizarre medley of occult figures and artifacts--priests, mages, lips stained by Shade of the Evening, Valyrian artifacts, etc. 

That being the case, it may be that Euron is quite comfortable making alliances that saner men would balk at--and perhaps Valyria isn't the only dangerous territory he has charted.

It may also be that, in relation to the theory you raise, Euron's interest in magic has made him vulnerable, that he has been mentally compromised, perhaps taken outright.

It goes back to that question that comes up from time to time in Heresy--a skinchanger's ability to take bodies ostensibly ends in their second life, but can they extend themselves by taking another skinchanger, or greenseer?

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

When it comes to the cleverness of mysteries, I think that is overstated when it comes to ASOIAF. Very few of the surprises within the story thus far are "puzzles." This is also subjective, but for me, the greatest surprise I've experienced in ASOIAF was the first time I read Jaime's ASOS chapters, getting to know him as a character.

OK.  However, this really is the point of asking you to make predictions; given such a list, we could then compare it to the content of the next book and see if your position on rarely/never having been surprised because there were few/no puzzles had changed.

I'm certainly on record with many such predictions (though rarely in as much detail as people want).  For instance, that Lyanna isn't the KotLT, and that Howland is.

We actually agree that GRRM has for the most part refrained from overt puzzles and solutions in the text to date. But I find it very clear that he's stuffed the canon with many such puzzles, many of them so subtly the fans don't even realize they're there to be discovered and solved (he was partly inspired by Wolfe in doing so) and futhermore, I'm sure he's going to be revealing the solutions to these in future books.  

He has, in fact, explicitly told us in an interview that such a revelation is coming in book six in reference to a mystery that people had been discussing in the nineties, and that -- despite all that time, and all the writing since then -- he clearly hasn't revealed so far.

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

implicit in the way you discuss ASOIAF is that you yourself are treating it as pulp: emphasis is placed on plot, mystery, failures of prose are by the author's design, because his greater priority is that the plot have mainstream comprehension.

Indeed, it was only a page ago where you were seemingly dismissing the value of symbolism in understanding the text, a practice that suggests it is better to discuss ASOIAF as though it were a historical document, rather than a work of literature.

Oh, no, I think he's just gone about literature in a different way than people expect.  

For instance, take the case of John the Fiddler from D&E.  He's a secret Targ.  His name sounds like "Jon."  

There have therefore been people who interpret this as symbolism: that if that secret Targ from many decades before ASOIAF had such a name, it's GRRM's way of symbolizing Jon Snow.  How tidy and pat that is.  And how trivial for the writer to implement.

But I think GRRM holds himself to a much higher standard than that.  If people want to solve his mysteries they are going to have to do it the way historians or journalists do -- painstakingly assessing the facts, as collected from a variety of sources and in context of how such information could have made its way into characters' heads -- not the way college sophomores do for an essay on Keats, in which nightingales or vases are arbitrarily deemed symbolic of artistic yearnings or the ideology of Romantic poetry in the nineteenth century.

That GRRM is himself the holder of two degrees in journalism, one with highest honors, probably informs his approach.  When you work in journalism, you have to be very careful in vetting your sources and drawing your conclusions before you publish a piece; otherwise, it's egg on your face at best, and fake news at worst.  

And this, of course, is why GRRM includes didactic passages on epistemology, like the well-known one on the Sealord's Cat that has come up in this context before.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

OK.  However, this really is the point of asking you to make predictions; given such a list, we could then compare it to the content of the next book and see if your position on rarely/never having been surprised because there were few/no puzzles had changed.

What I said several Heresys ago was that ASOIAF is not as inscrutable as a Wolfe book, and I stand behind that, but more on that later. I don't believe I said that  I am "rarely surprised" by ASOIAF, I said that the moments I find most surprising are not rooted in puzzles and mysteries.

Furthermore, what we define as 'surprising' might be a bit murky.

A reader looks at the question of Azor Ahai, and says "I think Person A is probably Azor Ahai, but I also have a decent theory for Person B, and a crackpot idea for Person C."

If Azor Ahai turns out to be person B, is the reader "surprised?" In finding the 'wrong' idea most plausible, yet still developing a theory for the 'right' Azor Ahai, is what the reader found most plausible what matters? Have they failed to solve the mystery?

The above scenario is why your proposal that I must provide 'solutions' to prove...something(?) doesn't really ring true to my philosophy as a reader--I come to Heresy because I'm always looking for new interpretations, not a single, 'correct' interpretation. 

In asking for predictions, are you suggesting that I should cease theorizing about what will happen in the next book (which I do all the time), and instead insist on singular interpretations?
____________________________

Insistence isn't really my thing, but I'll embrace the spirit of the conversation, and throw out some predictions anyway--two that I feel are more personal to me, and two that are more general. Should time eventually prove me to have been wrong, I accept whatever comeuppance I have earned in failing to accurately predict the future...assuming that GRRM ever actually releases another book, and that we both still give a shit about GRRM releasing another book at that point in time, and that I'm not blown away by the next hurricane to hit Florida.

-Jaime Lannister has been taken, his fate uncertain. Brienne has not played Stoneheart false, so she will not help Jamie escape (yet). However, Jaime is not to be summarily executed, nor to spend an extended period of time as a prisoner; Stoneheart wants something, and she will either leverage Brienne's life or Jaime's failure to return her daughters to compel him to steal and deliver what she wants: Widow's Wail, the other half of Ice.

-Mance Rayder's search for the Horn of Winter did not begin with his large scale excavation of the Frostfangs, and it did not end there, either. 

-Shireen Baratheon will be sacrificed to "wake dragons from stone," and Stannis will be complicit.

-Craster's sons are being used to create white walkers.

(edit: Obviously, the latter two are not "my" theories, but I'm assuming that isn't in contradiction of what you're asking. I'm also sticking with four under an assumption that you don't literally want an exhaustive list of everything that I think will happen in TWOW)
___________________________
 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

We actually agree that GRRM has for the most part refrained from overt puzzles and solutions in the text to date. But I find it very clear that he's stuffed the canon with many such puzzles, many of them so subtly the fans don't even realize they're there to be discovered and solved (he was partly inspired by Wolfe in doing so) and futhermore, I'm sure he's going to be revealing the solutions to these in future books.

You are articulating here what I failed to articulate earlier--this is what I meant in calling Wolfe's work inscrutable, in suggesting it is packed with secrets to unlock, that it rewards several rereads. I'm not saying GRRM doesn't aspire to something similar, I'm saying he falls short, not the least because of his aforementioned unambitious prose, likely stemming from a desire to not make ASOIAF too unapproachable.

For every one clever moment you spot on a reread, do you not find yourself encountering others that are cringe worthy? I cited the GoHH visions previously, and I'll return to them--GRRM reveals that Balon did not fall in a gust of wind, but was killed by a Faceless Man through...a vision of "a man without a face." Yeesh. You could call that cherry picking, but I think GRRM is inelegant just often enough that ASOIAF falls short of subtle.

I'm really beating a dead horse here, but I think prophecy is already an inherently bad genre trope, and GRRM only compounds that by using it poorly. In the visions and prophecies we find a lot of the lazy, on-the-nose symbolism that you deride--coming not from the fandom, but the author himself.
 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Oh, no, I think he's just gone about literature in a different way than people expect.  

For instance, take the case of John the Fiddler from D&E.  He's a secret Targ.  His name sounds like "Jon."  

There have therefore been people who interpret this as symbolism: that if that secret Targ from many decades before ASOIAF had such a name, it's GRRM's way of symbolizing Jon Snow.  How tidy and pat that is.  And how trivial for the writer to implement.

But I think GRRM holds himself to a much higher standard than that.  If people want to solve his mysteries they are going to have to do it the way historians or journalists do...

See the above; I disagree that GRRM always holds himself to a higher standard. Furthermore, "readers might see symbols where they do not exist" is not the same thing as "symbolism has no value in interpreting the text."

This is not to dismiss the broader point you are making - and the insight into GRRM's history is interesting - but I think this puts a spotlight on the value of a discussion forum, and the potential for new ideas that can come from the individual points of view that each reader brings. To put it in Heresy terms, I'm as interested in what you have to say about what is verifiable and rational within ASOIAF as I am in what RR has to say about ASOIAF's symbolism; both approaches bring their own unique benefits and blind spots.

IMO, the blind spot of approaching ASOIAF as a journalist would is that such a reader might miss relational and allegorical ideas. Journalistic background or not, ASOIAF is still art, created by an artist that values the traditional foundation he is building upon; while not every line is foreshadowing, every line is deliberate. History is full of things that are arbitrary or coincidental...literature, less so.

On the one hand, GRRM plays upon literary expectations to surprise readers, as he does with Eddard's death. On the other hand, it is for literary reasons that it is 'obvious' that Dany's eggs will eventually hatch, that she will eventually ride a dragon, that the dragon she will eventually ride is Drogon, and that she will eventually invade Westeros on dragon back. All of this can be inferred in AGOT.
--

TL;DR I understand that this grew into a real wall of text, so if you (JNR) are only interested in whether or not I've tried my hand at amateur prophecy, a few TWOW predictions are nestled in the first section of my post.

[SirArthur]

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 As for "Leaf's" comment about "long ago", I am starting to wonder a bit if "Leaf" is who she appears to be. 

I don't know. The only character we know of who is old, small and vanished recently from the world of man and would fit  ... is Old Nan. But there are no connection unless we can connect one of her stories to Coldhands. 

I mean there is Bran and Hodor ... but no text evidence.

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I really like that read of his sigil, especially in relation to the theory certain Heretics have raised that Euron is a failed greenseer--perhaps even a failed apprentice of Bloodraven.

I wonder why the sigil was changed in the wiki.  Perhaps it's a bit too close to the eye of Sauron.  I don't think Bloodraven is involved with this one, but rather something far older.  The dark eye, crow's eye, blood eye; the heart of darkness, the soul of ice; the tall and twisted thing, with ten long arms and one dark eye; the first storm and the last storm.  The unseen monster of the story. 

So perhaps this is what Bran saw north and north and north, beyond the wasteland, the ring of ice spears and the curtain of light.... Bran's monster.  We don't know what the thing looks like physically; but we get a glimpse of it's heart and soul through Euron and the Damphair's shade of the evening vision.

The Foresaken chapter is brutal, horrific stuff and Euron is coming for Bran in what will surpass anything we have ever seen from Stephen King.  

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I wonder if GRRM is going for contrasting ideas with the two sadistic antagonists - Ramsay and Euron - that have come to the fore in the aftermath of ASOS. Ramsay embodies terror of the flesh, carnality taken to its extremes, and Euron embodies terror of the spirit, blasphemy taken to its extremes. He's the godless man.

If Ramsey is any indication of what is to come; I think WoW will re-define the meaning of terror.  Ramsey and Euron are so depraved it's impossible not to think of them drawn together in the story.  A battle is shaping up on two fronts; the physical plane and the metaphysical plane.

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps Euron understands the magic of Planetos, independent of its underlying superstitions, and this accounts for his bizarre medley of occult figures and artifacts--priests, mages, lips stained by Shade of the Evening, Valyrian artifacts, etc. 

Or he has lost knowledge that spans millennia, once walked the earth, was vanquished and imprisoned.  He is seeking to escape; to be reborn.  

Spoiler

Euron is collecting wizards, sorcerers, septons for use in blood magic.  Holy blood as he explains to Aeron.  He seems to be preparing to replicate MMD's ritual with his brother and pregnant salt wife as sacrifice. 

 

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It goes back to that question that comes up from time to time in Heresy--a skinchanger's ability to take bodies ostensibly ends in their second life, but can they extend themselves by taking another skinchanger, or greenseer?

This makes a lot of sense to me.  If you can take a greenseer on a weirwood throne, you could live forever as a god.

And Dany... if the thing should ever catch her:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

but I'll embrace the spirit of the conversation, and throw out some predictions anyway

Me too! I'll predict that Qyburn has attached Robert Baratheon's head to Gregor Clegane's shoulders.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

For instance, that Lyanna isn't the KotLT, and that Howland is.

If it's not Robert, then I'll go with Howland as second choice.   But really, I don't want to take your money,

[Brad Stark]

I don't think Euron is going to be a major character.   He really hasn't been in the published books so far, and suddenly shows up with great power.  I think GRRM needed a powerful short lived character for some role, to develop Bran, Theon or Dany probably.  If he were the big bad guy he appearsto be without a closer POV, we'd be dealing with the kind of Dark Lord GRRM wants to avoid.

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think Euron is going to be a major character.   He really hasn't been in the published books so far, and suddenly shows up with great power.  I think GRRM needed a powerful short lived character for some role, to develop Bran, Theon or Dany probably.  If he were the big bad guy he appearsto be without a closer POV, we'd be dealing with the kind of Dark Lord GRRM wants to avoid.

Sealed evil in a can:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan

Eldritch abomination:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination

Spoiler

In the Foresaken chapter; Aeron sees Euron sitting on the Iron Throne after being force to take shade of the evening.  Euron's face is a writhing mass of tentacles under the skin.

 

[SirArthur]

The thing with Euron is .... we are still missing a water soul vessel in the story. We have fire (dragons), earth (weirwood trees) and ice (Others, although they are technical no vessels but the crypts in Winterfell somehow are). And we have iron connected to ice in the story and bronze connected to fire. If we take the Reed's oath then water mirrors earth. And that thing is still missing. 

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The thing with Euron is .... we are still missing a water soul vessel in the story. We have fire (dragons), earth (weirwood trees) and ice (Others, although they are technical no vessels but the crypts in Winterfell somehow are). And we have iron connected to ice in the story and bronze connected to fire. If we take the Reed's oath then water mirrors earth. And that thing is still missing. 

The Azor Ahai prophecy might not be about a hero reborn, but rather a monster reborn.  
 

Spoiler

 

Euron is planning to enact a blood ritual we have seen before with MMD and Khal Drogo. Drogo is placed in a bath of water and blood.  Aeron sees Euron sailing on a sea of blood. He's about to sacrifice his brother (holy blood) who is  stand in for MMD.  When she is sacrificed, Dany sees a dragon explode from her head.  Dany herself dies and is reborn, her unborn child sacrificed.  Euron is sacrificing his own unborn son.  He means to be reborn AA from salt tears (his hapless salt wife with her tongue torn out weeping tied to the bow of his ship) and smoking blood.

What can possibly come out of the Dampair's head if not a Kraken.  I used to think the Vicatarion's helm was hilarious... a squid on your head?  LOL.  Maybe there is another meaning. 

What wife would AA need that is worthy of him?  A rock wife?  Cersei the lion, who dreams of a knife plunging into her body or a salt wife with pale hands of fire... Melisandre, a bride of fire?

Euron, Cersei and Melisandre become AA's instruments. 

 

I wonder if the iron crown of Euron's sigil is connected to the crown of the kings of winter; the Starks. 

Why is Storm's End protected? Against what?

[SirArthur]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why is Storm's End protected? Against what?

Shadow babys. 

[Tucu]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The Azor Ahai prophecy might not be about a hero reborn, but rather a monster reborn.  
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Euron is planning to enact a blood ritual we have seen before with MMD and Khal Drogo. Drogo is placed in a bath of water and blood.  Aeron sees Euron sailing on a sea of blood. He's about to sacrifice his brother (holy blood) who is  stand in for MMD.  When she is sacrificed, Dany sees a dragon explode from her head.  Dany herself dies and is reborn, her unborn child sacrificed.  Euron is sacrificing his own unborn son.  He means to be reborn AA from salt tears (his hapless salt wife with her tongue torn out weeping tied to the bow of his ship) and smoking blood.

What can possibly come out of the Dampair's head if not a Kraken.  I used to think the Vicatarion's helm was hilarious... a squid on your head?  LOL.  Maybe there is another meaning. 

What wife would AA need that is worthy of him?  A rock wife?  Cersei the lion, who dreams of a knife plunging into her body or a salt wife with pale hands of fire... Melisandre, a bride of fire?

Euron, Cersei and Melisandre become AA's instruments. 

 

I wonder if the iron crown of Euron's sigil is connected to the crown of the kings of winter; the Starks. 

Why is Storm's End protected? Against what?

Durran Godsgrief declared war on the gods like Euron seems to be doing. He built it to withstand their powers.