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Heresy 201 and onward we go...

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37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

According to Aemon, Melisandre has misread the signs whatever those might be:

And so did Rhaegar and perhaps Aemon is misinterpreting as well.  The question is whether  Azor Ahai and the PWIP are the same prophecy or not.  I've come to think they are different.

Mayhaps Melisandre could have 'talked to long dead kings' etc would perhaps come to her in some version of a dream.  She avoids dreaming if possible, but does succumb to sleep. 

 

It seems she doesn't just rely on the flames... 

Agreed.Whatever the signs are,but you are correct.Flames aren't her only source of information.

She can see- per her "through" earth and stone as well.And see the years and seasons flicker past..

So she kinda does see like GSs see but unlike them her medium isn't the Weirwoods.

It also seems she doesn't get complete pictures just "flickers" that she to may have to interpret.

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Ice preserves - Fire consumes. The weirwood provides solid images while the flames do indeep flicker

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20 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Mel however has never lied though ..Which is what she would be doing if she couldn't do this.

Well, let's put that in context with this:

18 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

from her internal monologue she actually believes Stannis his the LOL's chosen.

Right. This is why it's not a lie when she says it.  

Compare to George Costanza -- "It's not a lie if you believe it" -- or Donald Trump, who in deluding himself, managed to delude so many others too.  Mel is just as good at Trump when it comes to autodelusion.

So when she says she can talk to kings long dead and children not yet born, what does that mean? IMO, at best, it means she has again somehow fooled herself into believing a thing (so it isn't a lie).  

If she could really do it, she would already know the outcome of so many events that she clearly does not know.   For instance, we see her casting about desperately for Stannis' fate in her POV chapter:

Quote

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Why is she bothering with this?  Fumbling around, looking into flames?

Why doesn't she just ask Mr. Future, who lives two years down the road, what happened to Stannis, and know for sure? Why, in fact, is there no reference anywhere in her POV chapter to being able to do such things?  Because she can't.

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On 8/13/2017 at 1:18 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Mel however has never lied though ..Which is what she would be doing if she couldn't do this.

Her cause might be sincere, but there's an element of showmanship and bullshitting to Mel; some of it is the self-delusion that JNR describes, but I do think she has been knowingly deceptive as well.

For example, do we buy that Mel 'caused' Balon to die by burning a leech with Edric Storm's blood, or is it more likely that Euron had hired his Faceless Man well before Mel had even burned her leech, and Mel simply leveraged her (legit) ability to foresee Balon's death to convince Stannis that there's power in burning Edric's blood?

IMO, she is similarly attempting to make herself appear vital to Jon by massively overselling her powers, and their reliability.

That said, it may be that what she promises is not entirely impossible--it puts me in mind of the story Varys tells of the sorcerer who cut him, a sorcerer who seemed to have a two way conversation with a flame if I'm not misremembering the details, so perhaps what Varys witnessed was the sorcerer speaking to a dead king. 

Thus, it may be that Mel isn't necessarily lying, but is leaving out the fine print. Price paid, reliability, etc.

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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That said, it may be that what she promises is not entirely impossible--it puts me in mind of the story Varys tells of the sorcerer who cut him, a sorcerer who seemed to have a two way conversation with a flame if I'm not misremembering the details, so perhaps what Varys witnessed was the sorcerer speaking to a dead king. 

Yes, that passage puts me in mind of the Undying of Qarth because of the blue flame and Quaithe's warning about the glass candles burning:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

After all, who is Dany speaking to in the House of Undying?  Long dead kings and wizards?

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, let's put that in context with this:

Right. This is why it's not a lie when she says it.  

Compare to George Costanza -- "It's not a lie if you believe it" -- or Donald Trump, who in deluding himself, managed to delude so many others too.  Mel is just as good at Trump when it comes to autodelusion.

So when she says she can talk to kings long dead and children not yet born, what does that mean? IMO, at best, it means she has again somehow fooled herself into believing a thing (so it isn't a lie).  

If she could really do it, she would already know the outcome of so many events that she clearly does not know.   For instance, we see her casting about desperately for Stannis' fate in her POV chapter:

Why is she bothering with this?  Fumbling around, looking into flames?

Why doesn't she just ask Mr. Future, who lives two years down the road, what happened to Stannis, and know for sure? Why, in fact, is there no reference anywhere in her POV chapter to being able to do such things?  Because she can't.

Not exactlyyyy.Her talking to a long dead king isn't going to tell her about future events.

Plus,why Kings? Why not say I can talk to people long dead.

Her statement about babes also seems deliberate.Why babes? What can a babe tell her that someone in their teens or older can't.Why not say talk to people not yet born?

I'm thinking something like she does her fire scrying and through it sees a three year old.No conversation is going to truly happen beyond.Whose your parents or what's your name.

A 2-5 yr old isn't really going to grasp who won what battle.

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3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Her cause might be sincere, but there's an element of showmanship and bullshitting to Mel; some of it is the self-delusion that JNR describes, but I do think she has been knowingly deceptive as well.

For example, do we buy that Mel 'caused' Balon to die by burning a leech with Edric Storm's blood, or is it more likely that Euron had hired his Faceless Man well before Mel had even burned her leech, and Mel simply leveraged her (legit) ability to foresee Balon's death to convince Stannis that there's power in burning Edric's blood?

IMO, she is similarly attempting to make herself appear vital to Jon by massively overselling her powers, and their reliability.

That said, it may be that what she promises is not entirely impossible--it puts me in mind of the story Varys tells of the sorcerer who cut him, a sorcerer who seemed to have a two way conversation with a flame if I'm not misremembering the details, so perhaps what Varys witnessed was the sorcerer speaking to a dead king. 

Thus, it may be that Mel isn't necessarily lying, but is leaving out the fine print. Price paid, reliability, etc.

I know there's some razzle dazzle with Mel.No doubt about it.But her wording is a bit deliberate and uneccessary.As I said she could have said

" I can speak to souls long dead,and not yet born."

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

After all, who is Dany speaking to in the House of Undying?  Long dead kings and wizards?

As BC says, the images the Undying project of themselves is probably not true to who they were in their previous lives--I suspect that scene was inspired by Jack Vance's The Eyes of the Overworld

Nonetheless, Dany does see a dead prince (Rhaegar) and a king/Khal who never came to be (Rhaego), so it may be that Mel believes she's being "technically" honest in peddling her wares to Jon Snow.

I'm also keeping in mind that Mel is potentially unique among the Red Priests in that she isn't just a R'hllorist, but a shadowbinder, one who has been to Asshai--I'm not sure we can fully appreciate the significance of the latter yet, in terms of its influence on Mel's powers and beliefs, her fear of sleep, etc. It may be that the reason we haven't seen her speaking to the dead isn't because she can't, but because she shouldn't, and she is tempting Jon with dangerous magic out of increasing desperation.

 

50 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I know there's some razzle dazzle with Mel.No doubt about it.But her wording is a bit deliberate and uneccessary.As I said she could have said

" I can speak to souls long dead,and not yet born."

Sure, and while I think Melisandre is probably bullshitting, I'm wary of writing her off entirely. Fan consensus seems to have moved toward the notion that Melisandre is a zealot with delusions of grandeur, terrible at interpreting her own visions, yet GRRM has said Melisandre is his most misunderstood character--so I do wonder whether she's being underestimated.

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20 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

 

Sure, and while I think Melisandre is probably bullshitting, I'm wary of writing her off entirely. Fan consensus seems to have moved toward the notion that Melisandre is a zealot with delusions of grandeur, terrible at interpreting her own visions, yet GRRM has said Melisandre is his most misunderstood character--so I do wonder whether she's being underestimated.

Hell,even I think she is a zealot and I she definitely is prone to misinterpreting.Also, way to prideful to admit the possibility of this in herself.

We have a glimpse of how she sees things in her flame.What comes through really is a matter of interpretation.

She may have spoken to a long dead king and have to make sense of what he said.She may have spoken with a little child and have to make sense of that.

I think there was a quote from GRRM about her being on her own agenda when it comes to Stannis.

But it would be nice to get more pig's from her.

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Her statement about babes also seems deliberate.Why babes? What can a babe tell her that someone in their teens or older can't.

Well, actually she didn't mention babies:

Quote

When I gaze into the flames, I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth within men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days.

Her word is "children," which has a much wider meaning than "babies," but I don't think she means it literally.  She calls them children because in her concept, they live in the future, and that's why they have not yet been born at the time she rattles off the above.  She doesn't mean she can speak to future fetuses.

Even if you assume she really is being literal, though -- past kings, future children -- a child a year into the future sure might know that Stannis was killed in battle at that time, just as children in King's Landing in AGOT might know Ned got his head chopped off.  You'd think she'd pick up her mystic iPhone and call one and ask, if she possibly could.

But it all just reads like self-aggrandizing hyperbole to me.  I think she can sometimes see events as they occur or occurred, at some point in time.  Just like Jojen can, in greendreams (metaphorically) and the Ghost of High Heart can too, and Moqorro (another Red priest) can via flames.

Here's another point:

Quote

"When?"

She spread her hands. "On the morrow. In a moon's turn. In a year. And it may be that if you act, you may avert what I have seen entirely." Else what would be the point of visions?

Notice the boldfaced.  She says the people she sees in visions of the future, doing things... may not ever do them at all.  The events she sees may not ever occur.

And if that's true, because she never lies, then the children not yet born with whom she claims she can speak... may never be born and may never say a thing to her.  Which cancels out her hyperbole.

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

As BC says, the images the Undying project of themselves is probably not true to who they were in their previous lives--I suspect that scene was inspired by Jack Vance's The Eyes of the Overworld

Nonetheless, Dany does see a dead prince (Rhaegar) and a king/Khal who never came to be (Rhaego), so it may be that Mel believes she's being "technically" honest in peddling her wares to Jon Snow.
 

Just to expand on that Deceivers post. While death aint what it used to be in these here parts, talking to the dead is waking great uncle Albert and asking him where he buried the money, those Danaerys the Dragonlord encountered were undead and active players.

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20 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, actually she didn't mention babies:

Her word is "children," which has a much wider meaning than "babies," but I don't think she means it literally.  She calls them children because in her concept, they live in the future, and that's why they have not yet been born at the time she rattles off the above.  She doesn't mean she can speak to future fetuses.

Even if you assume she really is being literal, though -- past kings, future children -- a child a year into the future sure might know that Stannis was killed in battle at that time, just as children in King's Landing in AGOT might know Ned got his head chopped off.  You'd think she'd pick up her mystic iPhone and call one and ask, if she possibly could.

But it all just reads like self-aggrandizing hyperbole to me.  I think she can sometimes see events as they occur or occurred, at some point in time.  Just like Jojen can, in greendreams (metaphorically) and the Ghost of High Heart can too, and Moqorro (another Red priest) can via flames.

Here's another point:

Notice the boldfaced.  She says the people she sees in visions of the future, doing things... may not ever do them at all.  The events she sees may not ever occur.

And if that's true, because she never lies, then the children not yet born with whom she claims she can speak... may never be born and may never say a thing to her.  Which cancels out her hyperbole.

Your last point hit better than what I was trying to convey.Which is why I likened her seeing to how greenseers see through the Weirwoods

So I guess the best way I can steer this is Melissandre seeing a possibility and trying to make that possibility among hundreds true.Thanks for clarification on the Children vs Babes.I was going from memory.

But I don't think reading her fires is something she herself can manipulate to such accuracy where she controls what she sees or who comes in the flames.Its all based on who and what the LOL shows remember?

She asked for Stannis and was shown something else..Snow or Jon Snow who knows.

So to my mind if she's asking for Stannis and sees him alive somewhere anywhere she knows he made it.

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On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:14 AM, Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik said:

You old timers are still at it? Nice to see some familiar faces. Been ages since I've felt the warmth of proper heresy =)

Good to hear from you - stick around :commie:

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Any thoughts on GRRM saying Melisandra is his most misunderstood character?  Very different from how he talks about another zealot, Victarion which he calls a dullard and a brute.  Melisandra's brute is her magic,  but otherwise at a superficial level,  these are similar characters.  At a deeper level,  GRRM clearly has more going on with Mel, but what?

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On 8/14/2017 at 7:04 PM, JNR said:

if that's true, because she never lies, then the children not yet born with whom she claims she can speak... may never be born and may never say a thing to her.  Which cancels out her hyperbole.

But that would mean she's talking to the... "neverborn?"

:blink:

 

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5 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

But that would mean she's talking to the... "neverborn?"

Heh. Yes, that's what it would mean:

Quote

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

In other words, via her flames, Melisandre could (assuming she's honest) talk to these creatures who only exist in the alternate future reality in which GRRM wrote them into ASOIAF.

And since he didn't ever choose to do that, that's why they were... never born. 

(And that makes them cousins of Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Film.)

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On 8/15/2017 at 2:17 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

She asked for Stannis and was shown something else..Snow or Jon Snow who knows.

So to my mind if she's asking for Stannis and sees him alive somewhere anywhere she knows he made it.

She seems to have phrased her request a little differently:

Quote

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. 

So this, I suspect, is why she never saw Stannis.  Her delusion that Stannis is AAR doesn't make it so.

Also, since this is her thought... as opposed to something she said, that someone else heard... we know the capital S is accurate and reflects what she was shown: Jon Snow.

Really, I think everything she ever sees in the flames is accurate, in the sense that it happens at some point in time, under some conditions, in some way.  It might be literal, it might be metaphorical (skulls, for instance, representing death), but it is accurate.

But Melisandre is so thoroughly brainwashed she can't comprehend what she quite literally sees.  

To quote Syrio Forel:

Quote

The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it.

Just so.  And if all this reminds anybody of a problem in... another place... why, that's not too surprising.  

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8 hours ago, JNR said:

So this, I suspect, is why she never saw Stannis.  Her delusion that Stannis is AAR doesn't make it so.

I'm puzzled as to why she has latched onto Stannis at all.  Aemon seems to think it has something to do with the dragon blood-line.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . .

 

What were the 'signs'?
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

Were my sons no more than a lesson for a king, then? Davos felt his mouth tighten.

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."

 

So she thinks she has seen Stannis in her fires leading the fight against darkness. She can recognize Jon Snow in the fires clear enough; so why not Stannis?  In the end, all she has seen is Stannis in a fight somewhere.   She's modified the prophecy to fit Stannis as well.  We are no longer talking about 'bleeding stars' (plural) but a comet.   She assumes that Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt; and so she manufactures Stannis' rebirth.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"Edric—" he started.

"—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?

 

So we are not talking about one prophecy, but several.  My sense is that none of these signs point to any one character in particular as the sum of the signs.  Only that they represent various aspects of salt and tears. That all these characters: Stannis,Dany, Jon, Tyrion etc are all signs of AA's pending return.   I suspect that AA is equivalent to the god of the Red Lot in it's current form.  "Him of Fire" to quote Jaqen H'gar.   Something that support Melisandre's contention that R'hllor exists and is male and so I think we are talking about a dragon (god).
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

"Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?" Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. "Jorah, is that you?"

"They sleep," a woman said. "They all sleep." The voice was very close. "Even dragons must sleep."

 

 

Quote

  A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery."

"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There's no power in brigand's blood.

 

Of course, it's not nonsense.  Dany wakes the sleeping dragon.  Or Mirri Maaz Duur wakes him.  Something that Dany sees as a man limned in flame dancing around the fire and as a black dragon in her 'wake the dragon' dream.  Together the man limned in flame and the dragon make the dragon god.  All the rest of the smoke and salt conditions point to instruments or swords forged by AAR rather than AAR himself.  The dragon god is Lightbringer, the Red Sword.  So Mel has that wrong as well when she takes the story of the swords forged in water, the heart of a lion and Nissa Nissa literally.

 

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