Cas Stark Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, El Guapo said: I must have missed the part where Sansa had poor Ned and Alys dragged in front of the room and then ordered Brienne to start wailing on them. Maybe I will need to rewatch that scene. My guess is if you asked someone if they would prefer a couple beatings or losing their land and titles and becoming penniless and homeless, they would take the beatings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: My guess is if you asked someone if they would prefer a couple beatings or losing their land and titles and becoming penniless and homeless, they would take the beatings. Not sure what this has to do with my post which was that Sansa did not do the same thing to poor Ned and Alys as what Joffrey did lo her like the poster implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Just now, El Guapo said: Not sure what this has to do with my post which was that Sansa did not do the same thing to poor Ned and Alys as what Joffrey did lo her like the poster implied. Yes, Sansa wanted to do the same thing, which is collective punishment, punishing one family member for what another one did...the fact that the punishments wouldn't be "exactly" the same is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Yes, Sansa wanted to do the same thing, which is collective punishment, punishing one family member for what another one did...the fact that the punishments wouldn't be "exactly" the same is irrelevant. Yes both are examples of collective punishment but no they are not the same. Based on this logic Sansa's idea of stripping lands and titles is the same as Tywin murdering Aegon and Rhaenys or Dany crucifying the 163 masters in Meereen. That is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 C'mon people. Sansa did not advocate killing or punishing the two kids. She advocated awarding the lands to loyal solders. Same happens everywhere, at RIverrun where Jamie took took the fort for the Freys, when Harenhall fell, even with Winterfell and the Boltons. The only reason they tried to marry Sansa is to make it more palatable to northeners. It's a political decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 31 minutes ago, Hoo said: C'mon people. Sansa did not advocate killing or punishing the two kids. She advocated awarding the lands to loyal solders. Same happens everywhere, at RIverrun where Jamie took took the fort for the Freys, when Harenhall fell, even with Winterfell and the Boltons. The only reason they tried to marry Sansa is to make it more palatable to northeners. It's a political decision. Taking away their land that they have a claim to is punishing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttoVonBismarck Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, El Guapo said: Yes both are examples of collective punishment but no they are not the same. Based on this logic Sansa's idea of stripping lands and titles is the same as Tywin murdering Aegon and Rhaenys or Dany crucifying the 163 masters in Meereen. That is silly. Stripping lands would be alot worse than a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther2000 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I think that Sansa made some valid points, However, almost all the major houses in the north turned their backs on the Starks. None of them went up against the Boltons. Even the people who were agreeing with Sansa( at 1st). Even house Glover was foregiven for not joining the fight against the Boltons. Jon said that there was nothing to forgive. I understand where sansa was coming from HOWEVER, she knew that those kids were there in the Hall. That was a Cersei move there. What did she want Jon to do throw them out or even better, make Hostages out of the. How soon does she forget how much she loved being a hostage and being ill treated by the lannisters. Jon was correct( even without knowing Cersei) Sansa admires her & is acting like her. Again, she had a point, but she should have known better to bring up her disagreement with Jon in front of everyone. She wants to be heard yes, But, she is still that little rich girl who wants to rule over people. I just wonder how she will act once Bran gets there ( I do hope that Araya makes it there also). #1 Bran will be above her when it comes to ruling or whatever. He is the true Lord of Winterfell, regardless of the King of the North. I don't think that Bran will be there while Jon is there. Bran also sees ( really Sees) the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Snowflake Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, El Guapo said: I must have missed the part where Sansa had poor Ned and Alys dragged in front of the room and then ordered Brienne to start wailing on them. Maybe I will need to rewatch that scene. Maybe you do need to rewatch that scene. Sansa proposed to punish Alys and Ned for the sins of their relatives, which is exactly what Joffrey did to her. Why do you think Joffrey had Sansa beat? It was to punish her for Robb's "treason" Why do you think Sansa tried to strip the Karhold and Last Hearth from the Umbers and Karstarks? To punish them for their father's treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, xjlxking said: Taking away their land that they have a claim to is punishing When they lose, they lose the title and land, just like Targs snd Barathrons, or Boltons, and often they lose lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 58 minutes ago, Ser Snowflake said: Maybe you do need to rewatch that scene. Sansa proposed to punish Alys and Ned for the sins of their relatives, which is exactly what Joffrey did to her. Why do you think Joffrey had Sansa beat? It was to punish her for Robb's "treason" Why do you think Sansa tried to strip the Karhold and Last Hearth from the Umbers and Karstarks? To punish them for their father's treason. They should be punished for dishonorable behavior. The Umbers gave Rickon to Ramsay and what was the mercy they extended? Rickon was a child. Sansa merely said to strip them of their lands. Little Lord Ned Umber could become a page in Winterfell, and Alys Karstark could have been married off to a Loyal Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Snowflake Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Alayne's Shadow. said: They should be punished for dishonorable behavior. The Umbers gave Rickon to Ramsay and what was the mercy they extended? Rickon was a child. Sansa merely said to strip them of their lands. Little Lord Ned Umber could become a page in Winterfell, and Alys Karstark could have been married off to a Loyal Lord. The Umbers and Karstarks were punished....Lord Karstark was beheaded by Robb and his heir and Lord Umber both died fighting for Ramsay. That is punishment enough. If every noble house got stripped of their castles for the sins of one person, there would be no noble houses. Every great house in the 7K has suffered a dishonorable lord or lady at one point. Some sins are greater than others though. House Frey committed a breach of guest right and House Bolton murdered their king. Both of those houses deserved to be wiped out root and stem. Robb gave the Karstarks reason to rebel by beheading their Lord. Lord Umber delivered Rickon to the Boltons and died for his sin. However, I don't think that Ned Umber and the Karstark girl had anything to do with their respective houses being disloyal and for that reason I agree with King Jon that they should reaffirm their oaths to House Stark. Winter is here and soon all of the petty rivalries and squabbles will be put to the backburner for the larger war to come. If Jon would have stripped the Umbers and Karstarks of their ancestral homes, that gives Cersei an opening to exploit to weaken Jon. Jon has bigger fish to fry than punishing a boy and a girl for their disloyal, dead family members. Sansa was out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Ser Snowflake said: Maybe you do need to rewatch that scene. Sansa proposed to punish Alys and Ned for the sins of their relatives, which is exactly what Joffrey did to her. Why do you think Joffrey had Sansa beat? It was to punish her for Robb's "treason" Why do you think Sansa tried to strip the Karhold and Last Hearth from the Umbers and Karstarks? To punish them for their father's treason. Lets be careful about the word exactly here. Punishment takes many different kinds of forms and degrees of severity. You cannot compare what Sansa was advocating to anything that a psycopath like Joffrey did. If Sansa wanted to bring those kids up and beat them in front of everyone than you could say exactly the same. The way I took the scene is that the show wanted us to identify with both Jon and Sansa here. Jon may have ended up being right in this particular instance but Sansa's concern for Jon repeating Ned and Robb's mistakes of being too compassionate are also to be noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Snowflake Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, Tagganaro said: Lets be careful about the word exactly here. Punishment takes many different kinds of forms and degrees of severity. You cannot compare what Sansa was advocating to anything that a psycopath like Joffrey did. If Sansa wanted to bring those kids up and beat them in front of everyone than you could say exactly the same. The way I took the scene is that the show wanted us to identify with both Jon and Sansa here. Jon may have ended up being right in this particular instance but Sansa's concern for Jon repeating Ned and Robb's mistakes of being too compassionate are also to be noted. I agree regarding Sansa being concerned with Jon being too compassionate. There is a fine line between being too harsh and being too compassionate. If you're too compassionate (Ned telling Cersei that he knew that her kids were bastards), your enemies will see that as weakness and use it against you to bring you down......if you are too harsh than your enemies will conspire against you to cast you down (Joffrey) I think that in a lot of ways, Jon is superior to his father and brother when it comes to ruling. He beheaded Janos Slynt only after he refused to obey a direct order and undermined his authority. He showed leniency to the wildlings who attacked the wall, mainly because he knew that they were trying to escape the white walkers. Jon was being pragmatic when he went to Hardhomme to rescue wildings and bring them south of the wall to help him fight the Night's King. Jon's pragmatism is what got him killed. Sansa need to stop emulating Cersei. However I do understand the game she is playing with Littlefinger, "keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Ice-Eyes Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 The entire point of the scene was the emotional one, as earlier posters said. That and sowing the seed for more Sansa-Jon conflict. Which I despise and don't see a need for, but D+D are not very creative writers. Also curiously absent from the conversation: the second biggest house in the North has just been annihilated. That's a lot of goddamn land you can parcel out to the loyal houses. Glover, and the ones who stood by, get to watch Lyanna Mormont and co increase their holdings by a ton. Also, it would be fair to peel off a portion of the Umber and Karstark holdings amd give that to the loyal lords as well. That way you are just AND merciful. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hoo said: What did Littlefinger gain by marrying Sansa to Ramsey Bolton? What did he want to accomplish? "Creatively it made sense to us because we wanted it to happen." D&D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 6:03 PM, Hoo said: What did Littlefinger gain by marrying Sansa to Ramsey Bolton? What did he want to accomplish? On 7/20/2017 at 7:00 PM, Lord Wraith said: "Creatively it made sense to us because we wanted it to happen." D&D LF had commissioned the Rand Corporation to study whether the Boltons would survive a marriage to Sansa to determine whether the Boltons would be able to retaliate by marrying Sansa back to Robert Arryn, causing massive damage to the Vale. The Rand Corporation concluded in it’s study that the chances of the Boltons surviving said to marriage to Sansa was extremely low. That’s why he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reisendame Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I really hope Sansa doesn't betray Jon (although her GOT character arc is very hard-to-read), but I would love to see her in major WTF/ scandalous moment. What if she married Littlefinger, then killed HIM! That's also hard to believe or see the logistics, because she's not even trying to lead him on, or even disguise her disgust for him. I'm seeing theories about Arya and Sansa being rivals, but I can't see it at all-- unless Sansa did completely abandon the Stark/wolf pack. When she killed the Freys, Arya made it clear that House Stark is back with a vengeance. IT seems the STArks have put aside their childish differences, and know they are stronger than ever. Do we think Sansa is thirsty for more blood? Who might she murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Just now, Reisendame said: I really hope Sansa doesn't betray Jon (although her GOT character arc is very hard-to-read), but I would love to see her in major WTF/ scandalous moment. What if she married Littlefinger, then killed HIM! That's also hard to believe or see the logistics, because she's not even trying to lead him on, or even disguise her disgust for him. I'm seeing theories about Arya and Sansa being rivals, but I can't see it at all-- unless Sansa did completely abandon the Stark/wolf pack. When she killed the Freys, Arya made it clear that House Stark is back with a vengeance. IT seems the STArks have put aside their childish differences, and know they are stronger than ever. Do we think Sansa is thirsty for more blood? Who might she murder? Yeah I don't want her to betray Jon. Speaking of marrying and killing Littlefinger, I heard a prediction that Arya will kill Littlefinger... while using Sansa's face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Though as far as killing Littlefinger is concerned, I would like Sansa to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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