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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion

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1 minute ago, Rubicante said:

In comparison to TV Stannis, Jon was a military genius.

In comparison to TV Stannis, Balon Greyjoy could be considered a military genius.

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7 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

BTW. This episode bascially proves that all the leaks are true.

I agree with that.  But by the same token everything in this episode was the logical extension of where everyone was by the end of season 6, in terms of moving the pieces:  Bran reaches the wall, Arya finishing the Freys and moving on, Jon and Sansa "rivalry" setup while consolidating the North, Jaime and Cersei arguing, Hound redeeming himself (with some gravedigging!), Sam's crap - and Jorah seeking a cure at the Citadel, Dany....looking fierce.

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You know what, I went into this season completely having followed none of the development or internet rumors, and even though I wanted to hate it, I just couldn't. I didn't like it either, I just kind of nothinged it. Like, sure there were some great performances, David Bradly made one hell of a speech, but that was mostly him elevating bad writing by being a damn fine actor, same with Rory McCann's performance (Now if you want something to rant and rave about, how about the fact that he doesn't seem to get a lot of work, he is great), which overcame some clunky writing to be pretty solid. Ultimately though, I just didn't feel much of anything, I just spent an hour feeling like there were better uses of my time.

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27 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

What experience does she have in politics?

Here is the scenario:

Robb rebels against Joffrey. Battle of Oxcross happens. Joffrey humiliates & punishes Sansa in front of the entire court. She literally begs that she had no part in whatever her traitor brother had done. Tyrion saves her.

Cut to now. Harold Karsark rebels against House Stark because Robb cut off his father's head. Smalljon Umber rebels for whatever reason. Why should Ned Umber and Alys Karstark be punished for their fathers' or brothers' crimes?

More importantly, why is Sansa comparing Jon to Joffrey when she is the one who is being "Joffrey"?

Quite so. Sansa still not telling Bronze Yohn what LF did.  And I wanted to throw something at the screen when Sansa saying Ned and Robb had failed to protect her.  Just wow.

I was irritated by practically everything in this episode. Still hating the tissue faces.  Empty Dragonstone where there's no advance guard to inspect it before allowing their queen to enter.  Cap'n Jack Sparrow - just no.  Enemies to the left, enemies to right "here I am, stuck in the middle with you".  Sam cottoning on to dragonglass - which he already knew.   We were literally fed crap(-filled bed-pans) for a whole scene - that's their writing.  Ugh. 

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I actually didn't know it was airing until I got an e-mail from HBO this morning about merchandise....haven't heard much about it for whatever reason.

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45 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

What experience does she have in politics?

Here is the scenario:

Robb rebels against Joffrey. Battle of Oxcross happens. Joffrey humiliates & punishes Sansa in front of the entire court. She literally begs that she had no part in whatever her traitor brother had done. Tyrion saves her.

Cut to now. Harold Karsark rebels against House Stark because Robb cut off his father's head. Smalljon Umber rebels for whatever reason. Why should Ned Umber and Alys Karstark be punished for their fathers' or brothers' crimes?

More importantly, why is Sansa comparing Jon to Joffrey when she is the one who is being "Joffrey"?

Being at court for a couple of years is experience Jon doesn't have. Interacting with nobles when she's with Littlefinger is experience Jon never had. All that shit counts as politics especially when the closest thing Jon has to that is sitting around with a bunch of crusty old dudes bitching about how cold it is.

I'm not saying she's correct or that Jon should do exactly what she says exactly when she says it, I'm just saying that someone with Jon's track record shouldn't put a red line through his any of his advisors who have experience he doesn't have. He can listen to her without doing exactly what she says. 

I'm not going to sit here and debate the morality of punishing children for the crimes of their fathers, all I'm saying is that her suggestion of rewarding loyalty and punishing rebellion is something that merits consideration, especially given that it generally is standard practice. Jon isn't good enough at his job to be just throwing advice away willy-nilly.

That being said, it definitely should have been a conversation had between the two of them, in private, before the meeting with all the Lords. 

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25 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

In comparison to TV Stannis, Balon Greyjoy could be considered a military genius.

In comparison to TV Stannis bloody Zapp Brannigan is a military genius.

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19 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

 

I was irritated by practically everything in this episode. Still hating the tissue faces.  Empty Dragonstone where there's no advance guard to inspect it before allowing their queen to enter.  Cap'n Jack Sparrow - just no.  Enemies to the left, enemies to right "here I am, stuck in the middle with you".  Sam cottoning on to dragonglass - which he already knew.   We were literally fed crap(-filled bed-pans) for a whole scene - that's their writing.  Ugh. 

Why is it empty? I just don't understand, its a hugely valuable piece of strategic real estate why didn't somebody grab it between season 4 and now? Like they literally forgot it existed. Pity for Loras he died in the fire, would have been pretty damn easy to storm that castle. No oil whatsoever :)

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3 minutes ago, Ser Edmure Tully said:

Being at court for a couple of years is experience Jon doesn't have. Interacting with nobles when she's with Littlefinger is experience Jon never had. All that shit counts as politics especially when the closest thing Jon has to that is sitting around with a bunch of crusty old dudes bitching about how cold it is.

I'm not saying she's correct or that Jon should do exactly what she says exactly when she says it, I'm just saying that someone with Jon's track record shouldn't put a red line through his any of his advisors who have experience he doesn't have. He can listen to her without doing exactly what she says. 

I'm not going to sit here and debate the morality of punishing children for the crimes of their fathers, all I'm saying is that her suggestion of rewarding loyalty and punishing rebellion is something that merits consideration, especially given that it generally is standard practice. Jon isn't good enough at his job to be just throwing advice away willy-nilly.

That being said, it definitely should have been a conversation had between the two of them, in private, before the meeting with all the Lords. 

1. We all saw Sansa's brilliancy in getting the nobles of the North to the Stark cause. Littlefinger joined to help himself. Jon did give her credit for saving him.

2. I don't want to debate the morality either. I'm just calling her a hypocrite.

3. Yes. It should have been in private. I was just reminded by someone how Dany shut down both Jorah and Barristan at Astapor. Now, I also remember the threat Robb gave Greatjon or the stare Robb gave Cat prior to releasing a Lannister scout. You don't undermine a decision of a King or a Lord in front of strangers/vassals.

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5 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

1. We all saw Sansa's brilliancy in getting the nobles of the North to the Stark cause. Littlefinger joined to help himself. Jon did give her credit for saving him.

2. I don't want to debate the morality either. I'm just calling her a hypocrite.

3. Yes. It should have been in private. I was just reminded by someone how Dany shut down both Jorah and Barristan at Astapor. Now, I also remember the threat Robb gave Greatjon or the stare Robb gave Cat prior to releasing a Lannister scout. You don't undermine a decision of a King or a Lord in front of strangers/vassals.

To be fair, Jon wasn't all that great at winning allegiance either. Davos smooth talked a ten year old and Jon's best mate Tormund won over the wildlings. All the rest joined after the battle as best as I can recall (correct me if I'm wrong, I really dont want to watch it again). 

Of course she's a hypocrite, she's five different characters in one person's body! Some of the most inconsistent, idiotic, poorly conceived writing in this entire show (which is truly saying a lot) has been thrown at that character to the point where you have no idea how she will react to anything at any given time. 

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Yep, even worse than a hypocrite....makes zero sense.  The actress is out of her depth too.

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Just a quick first note before I read up on this thread: The anachronistic costumes of some characters are really throwing me now, have been for a while. Now Euron's looks and posture before Cersei seem like straight out of a mildly modern West Side Story production...

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Am I the only one here that sees how worn Sophie Turner is? Eyebags despite shiteton of makeup that attempts to cover it up, lazy eyes, weight loss etc? Chick has been rumoured to be on coke for quite some time, didnt believe it but she looks damn awful .

EDIT: Also, anyone else annoyed at how quickly Hound was able to have a flame vision? Cmon, Stannis took ages back in Season 2 of staring at the fires while being a BELIEVER, here we have the Hound, a strong atheist, who looks in the flames for a few seconds and starts having ULTRA VISION of plot convenience

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21 minutes ago, Hear Me Roar!! said:

Am I the only one here that sees how worn Sophie Turner is? Eyebags despite shiteton of makeup that attempts to cover it up, lazy eyes, weight loss etc? Chick has been rumoured to be on coke for quite some time, didnt believe it but she looks damn awful .

EDIT: Also, anyone else annoyed at how quickly Hound was able to have a flame vision? Cmon, Stannis took ages back in Season 2 of staring at the fires while being a BELIEVER, here we have the Hound, a strong atheist, who looks in the flames for a few seconds and starts having ULTRA VISION of plot convenience

A lot of the actors seem to be just be phoning it in at this point I think. Dinklage for one, Coster-Waldau another. I'm not even sure what exactly Aiden Gillen is doing. Stephen Dillane phone it in for four seasons but he was just lucky that fit with his character perfectly (I kid, he was great).

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1 hour ago, Ser Edmure Tully said:

To be fair, Jon wasn't all that great at winning allegiance either. Davos smooth talked a ten year old and Jon's best mate Tormund won over the wildlings. All the rest joined after the battle as best as I can recall (correct me if I'm wrong, I really dont want to watch it again). 

Of course she's a hypocrite, she's five different characters in one person's body! Some of the most inconsistent, idiotic, poorly conceived writing in this entire show (which is truly saying a lot) has been thrown at that character to the point where you have no idea how she will react to anything at any given time. 

This is the thing that really bugged me. The only house that can claim a castle for helping is House Mormont. What, the Glovers think they should have Karhold even though they sent the Starks packing? Who exactly was cheering to strip lands from the Umbers and Karstarks? 

Also, I feel like they want me to think Sansa is being savvy here? Ethics aside, doesn't it make more sense to show clemency and then put your own people in place to help the little lord and lady, rather than reward lukewarm supporters who refused "the call"?

It bothered me to no end that Sansa kept calling Ramsay "Ramsay" in the big meeting. It seemed weirdly personal, which I think was unintentional.

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I liked how the Lannister soldiers Arya met were kind: We have pretty much seen only atrocious things from Lannister soldiers in the past but these guys showed how most people in Westeros are jusst trying to live their lives.

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6 minutes ago, Eurybia said:

This is the thing that really bugged me. The only house that can claim a castle for helping is House Mormont. What, the Glovers think they should have Karhold even though they sent the Starks packing? Who exactly was cheering to strip lands from the Umbers and Karstarks? 

Also, I feel like they want me to think Sansa is being savvy here? Ethics aside, doesn't it make more sense to show clemency and then put your own people in place to help the little lord and lady, rather than reward lukewarm supporters who refused "the call"?

It bothered me to no end that Sansa kept calling Ramsay "Ramsay" in the big meeting. It seemed weirdly personal, which I think was unintentional.

True dat. I also wanted a decision on the Dreadfort and Bolton lands but no.

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After Euron's costume, Ed Sheeran's cameo, and Arya being asked if she was of drinking age, it wouldn't have looked out of place for Arya to add the lot of them on Facebook and make plans to meet up at Glastonbury. 

Also the Arbor Gold was red. It's not even laziness, it's like they're actually putting effort into this level of inconsistency. 

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