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On 03/08/2017 at 3:39 PM, cpg2016 said:

Are you reading the same novels?  Lets ignore what happened to Lyanna.

Rhaegar ran off with another woman and cheated on his wife.  Definitely the actions of a good guy, right?

And then, after sparking a major rebellion by mistreating his feudal vassals (whether or not Lyanna is on board with everything, Rhaegar still needs to keep it in his pants), he comes back to Kings Landing to fight for his father!  That is an explicit statement of support for everything Aerys did.  Rhaegar believes that Aerys had the right to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, had the right to demand the execution of Robert and Ned, all that.  Rhaegar is not a decent person.  He may not be cruel and vicious and insane like Aerys, but his attitude is that he can do what he wants, when he wants, to whomever he wants, and is justified in doing so.  That is not a "decent guy".

Yes, we read the same novels.

Where did you read that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna?

I don't know if Rhaegar was a decent person or not, the characters seem to find him a decent person, or even better than a decent person.

I believe you have read too many fan theories so you believe that "Rhaegar believes that Aerys had the right to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, had the right to demand the execution of Robert and Ned, all that.". That's not in the books. Quote me anything from the books regarding this.

He didn't come back to fight for his father, he tells Jaime that he would change things, like he wanted before, do you know what the Tourney of Harrenhal was truly? A way to depose Aerys from the throne.

You might read again the books, without bias, and pay more attention.

On 03/08/2017 at 3:55 PM, YOVMO said:

A lot of this, I think, depends on Westerosi age gaps. If I am not mistaken the "abduction" was in 282 making Rhaegar 23 and Lyanna 16. THat is a pretty big age gap for 2017 RL but maybe not so much for Westeros. I really would need some precedent for the age gap. That said, the problem with Rhaegar and what, I believe, makes him less sympathetic is that there really is no good option. It is either the case

So whether Rhaegar abducted her and forced her against her will or followed his heart against good common sense, or let a prophecy come before any semblance of honor, decency, common sense or duty then Rhaegar is really a total dickweed. Really, there is no way to lay this situation out, no amount of variables which can be altered no possible way things happened that make Rhaegar anything other than an absolutely abysmal human being.

Even if this is true (and, for what it is worth I think it is at least AS likely as anything else) then Rhaegar rescuing her and delivering her to Storms End or to Winterfell or even to Sunspear or Starfall and sending a raven to Ned or Robert would have absolutely solidified his position, made clear that he isn't of the same cloth as Aerys (dollars to doughnuts that rescuing Lyanna and getting her safely back to Ned would ensured Ned never calling his banners against the crown so long as Aerys was off the throne) and avoided the entire situation. 

Even if he rescued her from Aerys and even if in that rescue (or at the tourney) he fell madly in love with her, and even if that love was absolutely returned by Lyanna, running off with her was an absolutely horrendous decision and he knew better and, for that matter, so did Arthur Dayne. 

Well, I have the right to think that GRRM is a better writer than that, that there was no time for a prince to "fall madly in love" with a teenager, nothing in the books indicate his behaviour as impulsive, besides the blue rose crown and the "kidnapping".

I have my reasons to believe that the story is not so simple. Either Rhaegar has really kidnapped Lyanna or he rescued her.

Lovers don't run away "at swordpoint". Think about it for a minute. If you fall in love with someone and want to elope with this person, would you do it in a manner that looked like kidnapping? Or would you silently run away in secrecy so when someone discovers you and the person you love disappered, it's too late?

Elopement does not make sense.

Love at first sight does not make sense, not even Sansa would believe in such a song.

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Whatever your personal feelings are towards are towards agegaps, GRRM frames the relationship as romantic. I mean, why else have the boyish Lyanna be so moved by Rhaegar's singing that she cried, or making it a point that Rhaegar did not love his wife?

And if you think 16 and 23 is gross, GRRM wrote a 13 yr old Dany falling in love with a 30 yr old Drogo.

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Something about the whole story is sketchy for me. Let's assume it was love and a possibly crazy guy in his twenties and a foureen year old girl knew exactly what they were doing, which is unlikely in itself. Why didn't Lyanna ever contact her family after that? Did she not know that her father and  brother were killed by Aerys, or that her brother and betrothed rose in rebellion, against Rhaegar as well as his father? Either something's wrong with the love tale or she was just didn't care about her family at all, and the latter is something I find hard to believe.

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14 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Yes, we read the same novels.

Where did you read that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna?

I don't know if Rhaegar was a decent person or not, the characters seem to find him a decent person, or even better than a decent person.

I believe you have read too many fan theories so you believe that "Rhaegar believes that Aerys had the right to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, had the right to demand the execution of Robert and Ned, all that.". That's not in the books. Quote me anything from the books regarding this.

He didn't come back to fight for his father, he tells Jaime that he would change things, like he wanted before, do you know what the Tourney of Harrenhal was truly? A way to depose Aerys from the throne.

You might read again the books, without bias, and pay more attention.

Well, I have the right to think that GRRM is a better writer than that, that there was no time for a prince to "fall madly in love" with a teenager, nothing in the books indicate his behaviour as impulsive, besides the blue rose crown and the "kidnapping".

I have my reasons to believe that the story is not so simple. Either Rhaegar has really kidnapped Lyanna or he rescued her.

Lovers don't run away "at swordpoint". Think about it for a minute. If you fall in love with someone and want to elope with this person, would you do it in a manner that looked like kidnapping? Or would you silently run away in secrecy so when someone discovers you and the person you love disappered, it's too late?

Elopement does not make sense.

Love at first sight does not make sense, not even Sansa would believe in such a song.

Jaime gets shit for only being "moral" when it is not his family who are doing bad things but Rhaegar is the same.

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It was neither love nor lust


Lyanna needed a way out of her arranged marriage. She failed to convince Ned to intercede with his beloved Robert on her behalf so she had to take matters on her hands. The king and the crown prince were the only two people in Westeros who had the authority to show the middle finger to her father and the LP of the Stormlands and get away with it. 
Rhaegar on the other hand was obsessed with prophecies and fables. The dragon had 3 heads and Elia could only produce two children. He was also a man in great danger. His little Harrenhal plot got spectacularly foiled by Aerys and it was only a matter of time before the old dragon would put him back into his box. He needed allies quickly and what better way to gatecrash into the Tully-Stark alliance then to impregnate Lyanna?


So to answer the topic question it was ignorance. Rhaegar wasn’t aware that people might actually get upset with what he does. After all, that never actually happened before. We’re talking about a man who was hyped at a young age by Tywin as a better king then his father. A prince who had most ladies (including Cersei) at his knees and who was able to hide his paramour in his brother in law lands without suffering any consequences for it. Surely the Starks would come around the fact that the crown prince had taken one of their own as his second wife. After all the Blackwoods weren't that pissed off when it happened to them. 


Lyanna on the other hand grew used to her independence and couldn’t tolerate the fact that daddy was trading her like some cattle. Especially, since, her future husband happened to be a cheating oaf who didn’t really mind being humiliated in public by Rhaegar (ie when she was crowned by him as Lady of beauty). Rhaegar had no clue that Brandon was a hothead whose capable of going to KL and challenge the crown prince for a frigging duel. Lyanna on the other hand had no idea that Rhaegar’s daddy was utterly mad. 

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16 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Either Rhaegar has really kidnapped Lyanna or he rescued her.

I am absolutely on board with this and think the rescue makes perfect sense here. The problem remains....after he rescues you then what? If you rescue a teenage girl what do you do with her? You are the crowned pricnce of the 7 kingdoms, have Arthur Dayne by your side and have just rescued the teenage daughter of one of your great lords who is engaged to another one of your great lords. The only possible things to do here would have been to return Lyanna to Winterfell or, possibly, to Storm's End. The decision to bring her to Dorne was, at the very least, incredibly poor judgment and was absolutely going to incite a war.

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

So to answer the topic question it was ignorance. Rhaegar wasn’t aware that people might actually get upset with what he does

My initial reaction to this is derisive scoffing, but knowing the high quality of  your posts here I am willing to think it through. Are you suggesting that R was more than a moody emo dreamer and was more of an Asperger's case where he is unaware or incapable of understanding what the people around him thought or felt? If so, I think that it fits the "abduction" case well but the Machiavellian machinations surrounding the Tourney at Harrenhall seem to speak against it.

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5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Whatever your personal feelings are towards are towards agegaps, GRRM frames the relationship as romantic. I mean, why else have the boyish Lyanna be so moved by Rhaegar's singing that she cried, or making it a point that Rhaegar did not love his wife?

And if you think 16 and 23 is gross, GRRM wrote a 13 yr old Dany falling in love with a 30 yr old Drogo.

Yeah, I don't think the age difference is really the problem with the story. Sure, Lyanna was 16. But she was also engaged to a 20 year old Lord Robert, was, by all tales, a precocious youth, was older than Cersei when Cersei was banging Jamie back at the rock (I am pretty sure on this) and, let's not forget, was less than a year younger than Jon when Jon became LC of the Night's Watch. I think it is pretty fair to say that 16 is old enough for love and sex in westerosi customs....heck, in medieval Europe it would have been too.

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

My initial reaction to this is derisive scoffing, but knowing the high quality of  your posts here I am willing to think it through. Are you suggesting that R was more than a moody emo dreamer and was more of an Asperger's case where he is unaware or incapable of understanding what the people around him thought or felt? If so, I think that it fits the "abduction" case well but the Machiavellian machinations surrounding the Tourney at Harrenhall seem to speak against it.

Duskendale plays an important role in the story. Its when Rhaegar naively entered in Tywin-Aerys feud. We  all know that drill. Aerys ignored Tywin's advice, he ended a hostage, Tywin crowned Rhaegar as a better option to Aerys and he suggested to storm the city. Rhaegar might have thought that to be flattering. After all, the most powerful warden in Westeros had publically endorsed his claim. For Tywin it was an opportunity to settle his scores with Aerys and to push Cersei's marriage with Rhaegar.

Aerys survived Duskendale and that was bad news for both Tywin and Rhaegar. In less then a year, Steffon was tasked to find a nobody to marry his prince. That of course was meant to punish the former and weaken the latter. Steffon failed in his task and Rhaegar ended up paired with the second worst option ie Elia, a plain and weak girl. If Aerys wanted Rhaegar killed than Dorne was hardly in a position to save his neck.

Rhaegar served as the dutiful son by giving the crown two children. However that meant little for the mad king. Aerys absolutely hated his grandchildren and to make matter worse, he seem to develop an obsession with Viserys. That's bad news for Elia and Rhaegar as the mad king could easily find an excuse to have them out of the way. He only had to 'convince' Rhaella to say that Rhaegar was not his, which would automatically strip him and Aegon for any claim.

Elia on the other hand was trapped into a strange and cruel game. She risked her life to give the crown prince's children only to see the king snearing at her children because they smell too Dornish. Rhaegar was not a bad man. He might have become obsessed with prophecy but at least he saw her children as a centre piece to this nonsense and he was determined to see Aegon as king. Her children were under some real threat from Aerys and if Rhaegar's paramour could bring an army at their side then so be it. 


At that point Rhaegar was extremely influential but he was equally in danger. One misstep was all that it took for him to end up accused of treason. The crown prince gambled everything on Harrenhal and it backfired spectacularly. Varys reported it to the king and Aerys showed up to the tournament ruining everything. There’s no time to waste. One Lyanna showed interest (I’ve already described Lyanna’s agenda in the previous post) Rhaegar gambled everything on her.


With Lyanna at his side, Rhaegar could rely on the North and the Riverlands for support. If the crown prince managed to get Elia out of KL then Dorne would be pledged by blood to support him as well. Tywin should join the fray and that should have been enough for the crown prince to send his dad to an early retirement. Rhaegar probably didn't saw anything wrong with having a paramour of noble birth. After all there were plenty of paramours of that kind. At one time the most powerful man in Westeros was some bastard from blackwood's descend and lets face it Rhaegar was way better than Aegon the unworthy. We're talking of a man whom Tywin wanted as king, who tends to make ladies go weak at the knees in his presence and whose able to convince the KG to act as his paramour’s sentry men by request. 


 Rhaegar’s biggest mistake was not to understand the Northerners, particularly the Starks. The Direwolves hated the game of thrones and valued honour on top of everything. Their beloved isolation (which kept them away from most of the Southern squibbles) kept them naïve in how Westerosi politics work and kept the others naïve about their tradition too. From Rhaegar’s perspective the Starks had been loyal for hundreds of years, shunning true power even when it was thrown at their feet (ie the hour of the wolf). They won’t upset the balance of power for something as trivial as this. 


Lyanna on the other hand knew that her brother was a hothead but she didn’t know that her new lover’s daddy is cuckoo. I mean, its not like something you would share at your first date am I right? Sure Brandon might go OTT. He might even storm KL and get himself arrested. However, surely Aerys would understand Brandon’s POV and be lenient towards him. After all the crown prince had just ran away with his sister and is now busy creating a bastard. 
 

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 6:10 PM, cpg2016 said:

Neither.  For Rhaegar, it was him acting to fulfill a prophecy as he understood it.  He may have even had a prophetic vision, same as Dany does, about one of the three heads of the dragon being from the Stark line.

For Lyanna, it was her being kidnapped and raped at least once, and then held hostage for 9 months until she died.

That is so incredibly unfounded and opinion based.  There isn't a single shred of evidence that suggests Lyanna being pregnant was the result of rape. 

Also it was most likely love and lust. They loved each other, and being young attractive individuals they also lusted after each other.

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8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Whatever your personal feelings are towards are towards agegaps, GRRM frames the relationship as romantic. I mean, why else have the boyish Lyanna be so moved by Rhaegar's singing that she cried, or making it a point that Rhaegar did not love his wife?

And if you think 16 and 23 is gross, GRRM wrote a 13 yr old Dany falling in love with a 30 yr old Drogo.

This is exactly right.  Everyone who says it was anything but love is simply projecting their own desires and personal feelings onto the situation. GRRM absolutely writes it intending to be a love story, therefore that's what it is.

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I knew I could count on you to make a rational point on what seemed like a little bit of a nutty statement. I see how you get where you are going, but I do see some problematic issues and remain unconvinced.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Lets start from the beginning. During the defiance of Duskendale Rhaegar is literally crowned by Tywin as a better option to Aerys. That must have gotten to the boy’s head. Anyway The old lion’s intention  is to storm the city which will probably kill Aerys in the process. That serves the realm (and Tywin) well. Rhaegar will be crowned king. Cersei will marry him and the lion will get his revenge (Aerys was already humiliating Tywin at that point).

That Tywin was trying to play kingmaker during the Duskendale defiance is beyond question...to the point where I have sometimes wondered if Tywin didn't plan with Denys Darklyn. The whole thing stinks of Tywin's brand of plotting. Remember Denys was trying to receive a charter for Duskendale and was refused by Tywin. I have sometimes wondered if in order to get rid of Aerys, pur rhaegar on the throne with cersei as queen and solidify Lannister power Tywin had Denys not pay his taxes and engineered the entire gosh darn kidnapping and everything. The Hollards were the scape goats and got the Castamere treatment and when Rhaegar was crowed Duskendale would get its charter. Not saying it is for sure, but I can see it as possible.

 

At any rate, I am with you 100% here.

1 hour ago, devilish said:


Aerys does get out of Duskendale in one piece. That, of course, is bad news for both Tywin and Rhaegar. The former loses every little chance he had of marrying his girl to Rhaegar. The latter is married off to Elia Martell, a plain and physically weak girl. At that point Rhaegar is vulnerable. Dorne alone can’t take on the entire 7 kingdoms so if Aerys want him dead then he will end up dead.

Still with you here. However, Rhaegar's vulnerability is muted by the fact that he could just go to Dorne or go Dragonstone (or pretty much any other place in the 7K) and begin to rally support of lords. At his point Aerys madness was pretty much a well known fact and Rhaegar was well loved. He obviously had Dorne in his pocket but if he went one by one to all the great houses and laid his case down to them he at least had a pretty good chance to be supported by most of them. You already mentioned Tywin wanted him crowned. If he could make a persuasive case to the Tyrells those three kingdoms behind him would make him much less vulnerable. I just don't think that Aerys posed as much of a threat as you make it out to be...especially after Harrenhall when his madness was totally on display for the world to see and he put Jamie in the kingsguard pretty much moving tywin from plotter to actively anti aerys.

1 hour ago, devilish said:


Rhaegar makes Aerys a grand dad. However that means little for the mad king. He insults Rhaegar’s and Elia’s children by saying that they smell too Dornish for him. Meanwhile the mad king develops an obsession for Viserys. That is of course bad news for Elia and Rhaegar. What would it take for the mad king to invent something outrageous to have them out of the way? We’re talking here a man who set people on fire and had grown obsessed in kicking the most powerful Warden in Westeros to the nuts. That sort of fear must have haunted both Rhaegar and Elia. 

Again, while Aerys could certainly have paid an assassin to go kill Rhaegar I do not believe he could have rallied support of lords to do it and RHaegar was well protected. While I won't argue your point and I do agree with you, again I just feel that the threat to Rhaegar wasn't nearly as serious is you make it out to be as long as he wasn't in the red keep and even while there I believe that most of the kingsguard, if put in position to chose, would have protected Rhaegar over Aerys. Sure, he had to keep an eye over his shoulder...but everyone who plays the game of thrones does.

1 hour ago, devilish said:


Elia is trapped in a strange world were the king hate both her and her children. Her family are just too weak and too far to protect her.

Dorne may be too weak to protect Elia while she is in the crownlands but if she goes to Dorne Aerys would have little ability to threaten her.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

Meanwhile her crown prince is becoming obsessed with prophecy.  Rhaegar might be a bit obsessed with prophecy but he’s not a cruel man. Surely he must have shared his thoughts with Elia most of whom are legitimate (ie the king hates them, he needs to find allies etc) while others are tolerable especially for a Dornish girl where sexual freedom is quite the norm.  Rhaegar assures her that her boy Aegon is the prince that was promised, however the dragon must have three heads. Elia can’t provide him with a third child and need powerful allies quickly. As a dutiful wife whose terrified about her children’s future, it isn’t that outrageous to think that she agrees that Rhaegar has a second wife/paramour especially if that lady in question comes with an army at her back. 

Again, I am with you here, but I believe that we go separate ways when we make that second wife/paramour Lyanna Stark.

1 hour ago, devilish said:


At that point Rhaegar is extremely influential but he’s equally in danger. One misstep is all it takes for him to end up accused of treason. He gambled everything on Harrenhal and it backfired spectacularly. Varys reports it to the king and Aerys shows up to the tournament ruining everything.

Aerys might have ruined RHaegar's immediate plans but his presence in his terrible state and demeanor and his naming Jamie to the KG did so much irreparable damage to him that in the end Rhaegar, I believe, still came out ahead. Any doubt that any of the major lords might have had as to Aerys being unfit to be king was immediately crushed when he showed up being all crazy and looking all long fingernails mad and the insult given to House Lannister was not something that Tywin was going to let go unanswered.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

There’s no time to waste. Lyanna shows interest (I’ve already described Lyanna’s agenda in the previous post) and Rhaegar first crowns her Lady of beauty and then flees away with her. 


With Lyanna at his side, Rhaegar can rely on the North and the Riverlands for support.

Here is our problem. The only way that this could possibly work with someone of the stature of Lyanna Stark (this isn't a common girl and it isn't a minor lords daughter. THis is the only daughter of one of the oldest and most noble houses in westeros) is if Rhaegar publically rekindles the Targaryen tradition of taking multiple wives, marries her publically and takes her as Lyanna Targaryen and even with that level of commitment it is doubtful it will work. Lyanna doesn't have the North to give to Rhaegar. Rickard and Bradon have the north and for Rhaegar to take Lyanna, a woman bethroved to The Lord of Storms End, break that betrothal, marry her as a SECOND wife, a custom long out of use, would 1) absolutely make an enemy of the stormlands...no way Rhaegar doesn't piss off the stormlands and for him not to know this would make him an idiot and almost assuredly make an enemy of the north....Rickard would be dishonored by his daughter marrying another man when he had arraigned for her to be married. If we were talking about a crownland vassels' 3rd daughter that is one thing, even if we were talking about the second or third daughter to a minor lord or one of the frey girls ok fine. But this is the daughter of the warden of the north we are talking about...his only daughter. This one move will piss off the stormlands, likely piss off the north and with Brandon set to mary Cat the riverlands would more than likely side with the Starks. If he is looking to make allies, even making a legitimate second wife of Lyanna is at best an insane gamble and more likely than not a sure fire way to piss off three of the greatest houses. What's more is that we have no inclination that RHaegar even did this....if he married her he did it in secret which makes it even worse. If she lives she is basically soiled goods.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

If the crown prince manages to get Elia out of KL then Dorne is pledged by blood to support him as well. Not to forget that Tywin has an axe to grind against Aerys while the boy is confident enough to think that he can persuade everyone else to follow him. Paramours had been a quite common sight in KL. Noble ladies had served as paramours for a long long time, enjoying the benefits of it (A blackwood bastard was once the most powerful person in Westeros). Lets face it, Rhaegar is way better than Aegon the unworthy or his daddy ever was. He’s Rhaegar after all, the man Tywin wanted as king, who tends to make ladies go weak at the knees in his presence and whose able to convince the KG to act as his paramour’s sentry men by request. What possibly can go wrong?

 

1 hour ago, devilish said:


Well Rhaegar’s biggest mistake was not to understand the Northerners, particularly the Starks. The Direwolves hate the game of thrones and value honour on top of everything.

This is certainly true of Ned but there is plenty to suggest that Rickard was playing the game of thrones and playing it well. He had, through marriage, set up a Baratheon, Tully, Stark, Arryn alliance and still had 2 sons to marry off to other houses. Sure, they were younger sons but a younger stark son is still valuable. I am sure he could have found very good houses to marry both Ned and Benjen to. Southern Ambitions has its flaws as it assumes a bit too much wrt an end game on the part of lord rickard, but that he was shoring up alliances is pretty much 100%

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

Their beloved isolation (which kept them away from most of the Southern squibbles) kept them naïve in how Westerosi politics work and kept the others naïve about their tradition too. From Rhaegar’s perspective the Starks had been loyal for hundreds of years, shunning true power even when it was thrown at their feet (ie the hour of the wolf). They won’t upset the balance of power for something as trivial as this. 

Again, totally true for many, if not most Starks and Northerners in general but Rickard was cut from a different cloth either because of his desire for expansion and power or possibly out of sensing the need due to Aerys increased madness.

1 hour ago, devilish said:


Lyanna on the other hand knew that her brother was a hothead but she didn’t know that her new lover’s daddy is cuckoo.

Brandon may be a hothead but Rickard and Brandon riding south were not hot head moves. Think this through. It is a great dishonor to break a betrothal -- honor being, as you pointed out, very highly valued by northerners. Even if not for the betrothal Rhaegar dishonors Lyanna by being with her without first arraigning it with her father especially considering that the last Targaryen to take two wives was easily over a century before. On top of this, since it is Rickard's only daughter it takes a major bargaining chip away from him,

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

I mean, its not like something you would share at your first date am I right?

By the end of Harrenhall that Aerys was mad was very much common knowledge. I might buy that a 16 year old girl might not know even if every lord in Westeros did, but Lyanna was at the tourney as saw Aryes with her own eyes.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

Sure Brandon might go OTT. He might even storm KL and get himself arrested. However, surely Aerys would understand Brandon’s POV and be lenient towards him. After all the crown prince had just ran away with his sister and is now busy creating a bastard. 
 

I think you make some very good points but fail to account for how much dishonor the lord of winterfell's only daughter having a bastard child (even if a royal bastard child) while engaged to be married to the lord of storms end is. If Rhaegar wanted allies the absolute worst thing he could do is anger Lord Robert (who was quick to anger) and Dishonor Lord Rickard (a honor driven Stark). In one fell swoop he made enemies of the North, The Stormlands and the Riverlands. There is a possibility, though slight, that he also would have angered Dorne (even if Elia was ok with this doesn't mean that the Prince of Dorne was going to like going to like it).

 

Now look at this from the other perspective. If Rhaegar was looking to make allies as you (I believe rightfully so) say he is he takes a HUGE gamble that at the very least destroys his relationship with the stormlands and almost assuredly with the north and the riverlands when a much better bet would have been for him to return Lyana to her father or even to King Robert. If he was rescuing her as many (including myself) seem to believe then by doing so he is a hero to the North (and the north brings the riverlands), he is a hero to the Stormlands for saving Lord Robert's future wife, he still has dorne and Tywin is still trying to crown him. With the one move of respectfully returning Lyanna to wiunterfell he essentially solidifies his position with nearly every single major house.

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That Tywin was trying to play kingmaker during the Duskendale defiance is beyond question...to the point where I have sometimes wondered if Tywin didn't plan with Denys Darklyn. The whole thing stinks of Tywin's brand of plotting. Remember Denys was trying to receive a charter for Duskendale and was refused by Tywin. I have sometimes wondered if in order to get rid of Aerys, pur rhaegar on the throne with cersei as queen and solidify Lannister power Tywin had Denys not pay his taxes and engineered the entire gosh darn kidnapping and everything. The Hollards were the scape goats and got the Castamere treatment and when Rhaegar was crowed Duskendale would get its charter. Not saying it is for sure, but I can see it as possible.

I won't be surprised. Irrespective of conspiracy theories Aerys shouldn't have gone out Duskendale alive. Barristan Selmy tore a new hole in Tywin's plan and placed Rhaegar into a very dangerous situation. Unlike the lion, the crown prince was easy prey to Aerys
 

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Still with you here. However, Rhaegar's vulnerability is muted by the fact that he could just go to Dorne or go Dragonstone (or pretty much any other place in the 7K) and begin to rally support of lords. At his point Aerys madness was pretty much a well known fact and Rhaegar was well loved. He obviously had Dorne in his pocket but if he went one by one to all the great houses and laid his case down to them he at least had a pretty good chance to be supported by most of them. You already mentioned Tywin wanted him crowned. If he could make a persuasive case to the Tyrells those three kingdoms behind him would make him much less vulnerable. I just don't think that Aerys posed as much of a threat as you make it out to be...especially after Harrenhall when his madness was totally on display for the world to see and he put Jamie in the kingsguard pretty much moving tywin from plotter to actively anti aerys.

I am 100% convinced that Rhaegar was certain that Harrenhal was a safe bet which was worth to take. Else he would have first made sure that Elia and her children would be as far from Aerys as possible first. The crown prince knew that his father was mad and he had little love towards his grandchildren.Even if we assume that Rhaegar was a psychopath (which I don't think so). he would never put 'prince that was promised' life at risk. Unfortunately for him Varys was the best in his job and Rhaegar's plan was foiled. This lead to a series of events with Rhaegar cutting corners and with Aerys ringfencing Elia and her children to make sure the crown prince + Dorne remain under his thumb.

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Again, while Aerys could certainly have paid an assassin to go kill Rhaegar I do not believe he could have rallied support of lords to do it and RHaegar was well protected. While I won't argue your point and I do agree with you, again I just feel that the threat to Rhaegar wasn't nearly as serious is you make it out to be as long as he wasn't in the red keep and even while there I believe that most of the kingsguard, if put in position to chose, would have protected Rhaegar over Aerys. Sure, he had to keep an eye over his shoulder...but everyone who plays the game of thrones does

I don't think that assassinating Rhaegar was the only solution to the problem. All he needed was to have someone 'persuading' Rhaella to confess that Rhaegar was not Aerys son.Under such circumstances Rhaegar would be made a bastard and he would lose his claim to the crown. Aerys would of course keep Elia and her children as his 'guests' which would mean Dorne will remain under his thumb.

Also as long as Aerys had Aegon and Rhaenys then he had Dorne + Rhaegar under check. Dorne would never risk Elia's life. Rhaegar on the other hand would never do anything that would risk the prince that was promised life.

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Dorne may be too weak to protect Elia while she is in the crownlands but if she goes to Dorne Aerys would have little ability to threaten her.

I think that ship sailed the day once Aerys learnt about the tournament of Harrenhal. That is why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. If the North and the Riverlands could be convinced to join his cause then Aerys would find himself having 4 powerful regions against him (Riverlands,North, Westerlands and Dorne). The Reach is a powerhouse but it wont risk being invaded from all fronts especially since war is very bad to their fertile lands. That means that Aerys would find himself relying on just the crownlands, the stormlands and possibly the Vale (would Arryn go against Ned?) to defend him. That's a far too weak position for a king to be in.

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Here is our problem. The only way that this could possibly work with someone of the stature of Lyanna Stark (this isn't a common girl and it isn't a minor lords daughter. THis is the only daughter of one of the oldest and most noble houses in westeros) is if Rhaegar publically rekindles the Targaryen tradition of taking multiple wives, marries her publically and takes her as Lyanna Targaryen and even with that level of commitment it is doubtful it will work. Lyanna doesn't have the North to give to Rhaegar. Rickard and Bradon have the north and for Rhaegar to take Lyanna, a woman bethroved to The Lord of Storms End, break that betrothal, marry her as a SECOND wife, a custom long out of use, would 1) absolutely make an enemy of the stormlands...no way Rhaegar doesn't piss off the stormlands and for him not to know this would make him an idiot and almost assuredly make an enemy of the north....Rickard would be dishonored by his daughter marrying another man when he had arraigned for her to be married. If we were talking about a crownland vassels' 3rd daughter that is one thing, even if we were talking about the second or third daughter to a minor lord or one of the frey girls ok fine. But this is the daughter of the warden of the north we are talking about...his only daughter. This one move will piss off the stormlands, likely piss off the north and with Brandon set to mary Cat the riverlands would more than likely side with the Starks. If he is looking to make allies, even making a legitimate second wife of Lyanna is at best an insane gamble and more likely than not a sure fire way to piss off three of the greatest houses. What's more is that we have no inclination that RHaegar even did this....if he married her he did it in secret which makes it even worse. If she lives she is basically soiled good

I don't think Rhaegar thought it through. Put yourself in his shoes. Your dad is mad and he's got your own family hostage. You organize a coup d'etat at Harrenhal and suddenly he shows up. If I was Rhaegar, I would be shitting in my pants. By taking Lyanna away, Rhaegar might have thought that he would be able to create enough smokescreen to shift attention from his revolt attempt to Lyanna's 'escape'. The Starks love family and hates politics so if Lyanna returned with a baby in her arms and assurances that she left with Rhaegar out of her own free then daddy would probably close an eye to it. He hardly has a choice on the matter. He won't kill his grandson's father (ie the crown prince) wouldnt he? 

So here is how things could pan out. As soon Rhaegar becomes king he would agree to legitimise Lyanna's boy and make Lord of Dragonstone. Jon (lets say his name is Jon) would also become second in line to the crown (after Aegon). Its not exactly the Stormlands, however its not a shabby deal either. That would tie Rickard's fortune to that of Rhaegar. As said the Northerners love the wolves (any wolf) and would never allow Aerys to mistreat them.

I also tend to play down Robert's so called rage simply because we never seen any proof of it. Robert stirred away from trouble even when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Lady of beauty. He stayed out of trouble when Lyanna got kidnapped and he only joined Arryn's rebellion when Aerys gave him no choice. After the rebellion he ignored the remaining Targs up until they became a threat (Danny married Drogo). That's not a man whose guided by blind rage.

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This is certainly true of Ned but there is plenty to suggest that Rickard was playing the game of thrones and playing it well. He had, through marriage, set up a Baratheon, Tully, Stark, Arryn alliance and still had 2 sons to marry off to other houses. Sure, they were younger sons but a younger stark son is still valuable. I am sure he could have found very good houses to marry both Ned and Benjen to. Southern Ambitions has its flaws as it assumes a bit too much wrt an end game on the part of lord rickard, but that he was shoring up alliances is pretty much 100%

As said, I don't think Rickard was planning a revolt. If he did, he wouldn't marry Lyanna (noble women of that stature is somehow rare in Westeros) to Aerys cousin whose tiny region is surrounded by Targ Loyalists. After Brandon got arrested, Rickard decided  to answer to Aerys summonings even though Ned was still a ward at the Vale (and at the mercy of a foreign Warden). That suggest that Rickard genuinely believed that Aerys was a good king who will bring justice.

What I do believe is that like any Warden/LP in Westeros Rickard was strengthening his position as a warden through a strength in numbers policy. Egg reforms were a pain for the Wardens/LPs. So they had to make sure to combine forces just in case another king dares micromanaging the kingdom again.

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Brandon may be a hothead but Rickard and Brandon riding south were not hot head moves. Think this through. It is a great dishonor to break a betrothal -- honor being, as you pointed out, very highly valued by northerners. Even if not for the betrothal Rhaegar dishonors Lyanna by being with her without first arraigning it with her father especially considering that the last Targaryen to take two wives was easily over a century before. On top of this, since it is Rickard's only daughter it takes a major bargaining chip away from him,

Brandon's actions were stupid. If you threaten the crown prince in KL then its only fair you will be arrested, Rickard joined him because he geniunely believed that the boy would end up with a slap at the wrist. After all who can better understand reckless children better then the mad king? His son has just ran off with the warden of the North's daughter.

All of this was a diplomatic mess which Brandon's recklessness made it pretty straight forward to sort. Rickard would forgive Rhaegar if Aerys would forgive Brandon. Simples. Unfortunately Aerys went full bbq and ended up burning the only person who could see sense out of this madness (Rickard). Ned took over and by that time he had so many family to bury not to give a feck about seeing reason.

I will add more at a later stage

 

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Everything makes the situation seem romantic. Leaving aside the morality (or lack thereof) of a married man falling for another woman, it seems to me that they fell in love with each other.

Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, so it is possible he only did what he did believing Lyanna might bear the ptwp, but all things point to them being in love.

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@YOVMO

Our posts get bigger and bigger so here is a summary of what I think

a- At Duskendale Rhaegar got himself caught in Tywin-Aerys feud. Aerys survived, both the lion and the crown prince got hurt but while the warden of the west could rely on his troops and enormous fortress, Rhaegar ended up easy prey to his crazy daddy

b- After Duskendale Aerys made sure Rhaegar will end up with a weak betrothal. He first send Steffon to find some Valyrian nobody. When Steffon fails to do that, he goes for the second weakest option ie Elia Martell. 

c- Princess Elia learns early on that Aerys doesn't like her or her children very much. She also learns that Aerys is developing an obsession for Viserys which is not good news for her or her children. Rhaegar is just too weak (military wise) to protect her and he needs allies. If those allies entail having her accept a second wife then so be it. After all her boy will still be heir to the IT. 

d- Rhaegar gambles everything on Harrenhal.  Aerys learns of his plot and he gatecrashed it leaving Rhaegar in a very dangerous position. At that point Aerys only needs to identify 1 suspect and torture him to declare Rhaegar as a traitor.

e- Rhaegar learns that Lyanna is unhappy of her future marriage and decides to run away with her. The Starks had been always loyal to the crown + Rickard is a reasonable man who just love family. If Rhaegar 'marries' Lyanna and he gets her pregnant then Rickard will probably close an eye to things especially if the girl tells him it was all her idea. The Starks would never let Aerys hurt Lyanna or her children which means Rhaegar would finally have the army he needs. What Rhaegar doesn't know is that Brandon Stark is a hot head who would stupidily gatecrash KL asking for the crown prince head

f-  Lyanna knows her brother is a hothead but sees that as an advantage. Brandon will probably do something stupid with little to no support from either House Tully or House Stark. That will probably mean that he'll end up arrested. At that point Rickard will have no choice but to negotiate. With two children in Targeryan custody he hardly have a choice. What she doesn't know is that Aerys is as crazy as a horse. I doubt Rhaegar had opened his courting with that.

g-  Brandon is indeed arrested and Rickard does goes South to negotiate much to Lyanna's prediction. However much to Rhaegar's horror daddy overdoes this and goes in full killing spree. Arryn refuse to appease the king and rebels, Robert refuse to willingly lose his head and rebel too and Neds takes over the North and does the same thing. Ned is a mess at that point. His father is dead, his brother is dead, he ends up ruling the North something he never wanted and was forced to marry his brother's fiancee (that's creepy). As Robert's no 1 fanboy he can't even entertain the idea of a girl refusing to marry the most powerful, gracious and handsome man in all Westeros. Therefore, in his book, Lyanna was surely kidnapped. He learns its not the case at the tower of joy but at that point its far too late.

 

 

 

 

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On 8/8/2017 at 2:20 PM, spauldo17 said:

That is so incredibly unfounded and opinion based.  There isn't a single shred of evidence that suggests Lyanna being pregnant was the result of rape. 

Also it was most likely love and lust. They loved each other, and being young attractive individuals they also lusted after each other.

Aside from the fact that she was carried off at swordpoint, which by definition makes it rape and kidnapping?  Aside from the fact that Rhaegar, so desperately in love, leaves her under armed guard and without any medical assistance, a fact which at the very least contributes to her death?  I've already shown, convincingly I think, why Rhaegar and Lyanna would not be at the Tower of Joy if this was a mutual elopement (because many other places are equally secret, more convenient, etc).  There isn't much evidence to suggest she went willingly.

Look, Rhaegar may love Lyanna very dearly (though I don't think so, it doesn't fit his character - "not a man the gods made to be happy" to paraphrase).  But his feelings are unimportant; hers are, and the little circumstantial evidence we get is that she more likely than not wasn't a willing participant, or else the whole episode would have transpired differently.

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20 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Everything makes the situation seem romantic. Leaving aside the morality (or lack thereof) of a married man falling for another woman, it seems to me that they fell in love with each other.

Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, so it is possible he only did what he did believing Lyanna might bear the ptwp, but all things point to them being in love.

Which things are those?  What evidence do you have that Lyanna loved Rhaegar?  Because she cried when he sang a sad song at Harrenahal?

She's a noblewoman, engaged to another important noble.  She understands what eloping means, which is why we've never seen another female character do it.  Affairs?  Sure.  Breaking an engagement and running off with another man?  I cannot recall a single instance.

And I think it's highly likely that Rhaegar did what he did for the PTWP.  Everything in his characterization points to someone who isn't prone to randomly falling in love with someone he's just met for the first time.  He's melancholy.  He has maybe one friend in Arthur Dayne.  He is "fond" of his wife of several years but nothing more.  He likes to head alone to sad places by himself.  He's obsessed with prophecy.  And he's probably quite used to beautiful, powerful women throwing themselves at him.

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On 8/8/2017 at 6:26 AM, John Doe said:

Something about the whole story is sketchy for me. Let's assume it was love and a possibly crazy guy in his twenties and a foureen year old girl knew exactly what they were doing, which is unlikely in itself. Why didn't Lyanna ever contact her family after that? Did she not know that her father and  brother were killed by Aerys, or that her brother and betrothed rose in rebellion, against Rhaegar as well as his father? Either something's wrong with the love tale or she was just didn't care about her family at all, and the latter is something I find hard to believe.

Or... she's a prisoner, being deliberately kept away from pertinent information while she births the PTWP.  If she's a willing participant in all this, the least she can do is write her family, say she's okay, and that she was NOT abducted, which does a lot to stave off the ensuing shitstorm that comes down on the Realm.

This is my point about the entire episode.  If Lyanna is a willing participant, then nothing, and I mean nothing, makes sense from the moment Rhaegar finds her in the Riverlands the the moment she dies.  At every turn you need some weird explanation, which only brings up yet more questions.

Whereas if Rhaegar kidnapped her, then you do not need a single additional explanation.  Everything makes perfect sense.

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On 8/7/2017 at 6:14 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I believe you have read too many fan theories so you believe that "Rhaegar believes that Aerys had the right to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, had the right to demand the execution of Robert and Ned, all that.". That's not in the books. Quote me anything from the books regarding this.

He comes out of hiding to actively defend his father.  You do understand what it means to defend someones actions, right?  He didn't come out and say "my father is insane and broke the feudal contract, lets dethrone him and I'll make sure justice is done".  He came out and fought to keep his father on the throne.  I don't need to quote the books.  In the LITERAL sense of the word he is defending his father's actions.  If the book says "character X was walking south, but turned around and started walking in the opposite direction" we don't need to be told that direction is North, it's made clear by the text.  When the text says "When Prince Rhaegar heard about the Rebellion his father caused, he came out of hiding and raised and army to defeat Robert" we don't need to hear that he endorses his father's right to burn innocents alive; he is fighting for that right, quite literally.

On 8/7/2017 at 6:14 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Where did you read that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna?

Well lets see.  Brandon's reaction is that of a brother whose sister was kidnapped.  Daenerys straight up thinks that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna "at swordpoint" and she's getting the pro-Rhaegar version of the story.

Where did you read that Lyanna loved or eloped with Rhaegar?  Nowhere.  The difference is, all the circumstantial evidence and the little direct evidence we get, supports Rhaegar being a kidnapper and rapist.

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55 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

He comes out of hiding to actively defend his father.  You do understand what it means to defend someones actions, right?  He didn't come out and say "my father is insane and broke the feudal contract, lets dethrone him and I'll make sure justice is done".  He came out and fought to keep his father on the throne.  I don't need to quote the books.  In the LITERAL sense of the word he is defending his father's actions.  If the book says "character X was walking south, but turned around and started walking in the opposite direction" we don't need to be told that direction is North, it's made clear by the text.  When the text says "When Prince Rhaegar heard about the Rebellion his father caused, he came out of hiding and raised and army to defeat Robert" we don't need to hear that he endorses his father's right to burn innocents alive; he is fighting for that right, quite literally.

<snip>

I agree w/ you on a lot but not on this...

I don't think Rhaegar's decision has anything to do w/ defending Aerys. I think it's much more to do w/ it being what he considered to be the right thing under the circumstances. He can't simply say, "can't be asked, will chill here at the ToJ". 

Everything the text gives us on Rhaegar point to him being a decent guy at the very least, and to me the idea that he is a kidnapper and a rapist simply doesn't add up. 

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