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Frey Kings

lust or love regarding R+L

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7 hours ago, devilish said:

 

a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity.

15 actually, she was died when she was 16 and was described as a "child woman" by Ned. Also Rhaegar first met her when she was 13, it's very easy to manipulate and influence a child so young. 

7 hours ago, devilish said:

 

b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive.

Yeah I think it was a combination of both; maybe Lyanna thought Rhaegar was her dashing prince who will rescue her from an unwanted marriage? Also this persuasiveness of Rhaegar's highlights the power imbalance in the relationship, as well as hinting that Lyanna was coerced into having sex thus making it rape.

Childbirth is incredibly dangerous which is why medieval women had children around 17/18; anything younger would have been dangerous to both mother and child. Would a 15 year old Lyanna really want to be pregnant? 

7 hours ago, devilish said:

 

She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent?

So if Rhaegar manipulates her into thinking she has a say in her life I can see her running without thinking it through, maybe that's why she didn't realise until it was too late the seriousness and danger of her situation. Just like Arya I can't see Lyanna consenting to be confided in a tower far from home just so Rhaegar can get a daughter out of her. 

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Absolutely. If you told me she had a lustful encounter with Rhaegar behind a stable during Harrenhall I wouldn't doubt it for a moment.

I hope not she was 13 at Harrenhall :unsure:

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Lyanna simply didn't want to be married off to some southern lord she may, in her own way, have been playing Rhaegar to get out of the marriage with no real desire to marry him and the pregnancy (and of course her death in childbirth) itself was unintended.

:agree:

Going back to OP's point; it was neither lust or love.  

Rhaegar wanted his Visenya and coerced a 15 year old child into giving him to her despite knowing full well the dangers of child birth for someone so young. 

And maybe Lyanna did fancy him but it wasn't a deep love and I doubt it lasted that long when he locked her up in a tower.

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Duty and love.

When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.

I believe he knew what would follow. And he told her. Maybe she even knew something too when she did her KotLT. I believe they knew it was their last days and they loved each other the more for it. There is not much evidence. But I feel the story is more beautiful that way. Better than two stupid, egocentric people.

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@Pikachu101

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15 actually, she was died when she was 16 and was described as a "child woman" by Ned. Also Rhaegar first met her when she was 13, it's very easy to manipulate and influence a child so young. 

I agree that she was very immature especially if she's got a similar character to Arya (whom we know tend to hit first and think later). Also, considering Rickard's other offspring (Brandon 'I go in KL alone and challenge the crown prince' Stark and Ned 'I spill the beans to Cersei and expect her to just flee') I doubt that the old man had spent years teaching the complexity of diplomacy either.

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Yeah I think it was a combination of both; maybe Lyanna thought Rhaegar was her dashing prince who will rescue her from an unwanted marriage? Also this persuasiveness of Rhaegar's highlights the power imbalance in the relationship, as well as hinting that Lyanna was coerced into having sex thus making it rape.

Childbirth is incredibly dangerous which is why medieval women had children around 17/18; anything younger would have been dangerous to both mother and child. Would a 15 year old Lyanna really want to be pregnant? 

 

Hmm....I wouldn't really use modern mentality to judge medieval morality. People used to marry very early those days and with mortality being set so high, no one really bothered about childbirth. 

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So if Rhaegar manipulates her into thinking she has a say in her life I can see her running without thinking it through, maybe that's why she didn't realise until it was too late the seriousness and danger of her situation. Just like Arya I can't see Lyanna consenting to be confided in a tower far from home just so Rhaegar can get a daughter out of her.

 I agree, there was a certain low level of manipulation in place. Its very possible that Rhaegar courted Lyanna mainly not because he liked her but because of her father's army. However the manipulation could have been two way. Its very possible that Lyanna saw Rhaegar as her only way out from Robert's marriage. That's the trouble of raising children with a mindset that the whole world owes them everything only to then end up paring them like some sort of cattle. Lyanna had problems accepting that same as Cersei, Lysa, Robert, Robb and possibly Rhaegar 

TBF though neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna expected the disaster that would happen afterwards. What Rhaegar-Lyanna did was inconvenient but it wasnt a crime. Brandon Stark was doing the same with Barbrey and Robert would do the same with the Florent girl. Also note that unless

a- the Lord/Prince/King was an Ahole (ex Roose) 
b- his wife happens to be very very insecure (Ex Cersei or Cat)

Then bastards can carve a good life for themselves. Brandon Snow and the bloodraven are two of many examples to that. I think that JS would be way better off if Robert's rebellion never started in the first. 

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Just like Arya I can't see Lyanna consenting to be confided in a tower far from home just so Rhaegar can get a daughter out of her.

Actually Lyanna got a far better treatment than Elia and her children. I'd rather spend my life at the tower of joy with some of the finest KGs to protecting me then in KL as pawn to Aerys and later on as an obstacle for Tywin and his plans.

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She surely isn't the peak of maturity but I do not think we can put her in league with a real life 16 year old in 2017. Being prone to flights of fancy? Absolutely. If you told me she had a lustful encounter with Rhaegar behind a stable during Harrenhall I wouldn't doubt it for a moment. But at 16 a stark girl would have, if nothing else, had really pounded into her a sense the importance of being a Stark and how important it is not to screw that up. While this doesn't mean there is no way this happens because, as you note, she is not a fully mature individual I would bet that Lyanna would have a full understanding of a) The importance of being a Stark of Winterfell b ) the importance of a betrothal (I assume her betrothal to Robert happened in a ceremony--most likely in front of a Weirwood--with her whole family in tow and c) A general sense of right and wrong with regard both to personal as well as family morality.

Yes and no.

You're right medieval girls grew faster then modern girls.

However, we're talking here about the Starks, specifically Rickard's children (ie the man who produced Brandon 'I challenge the crown prince in his own house' Stark and Ned 'if I spill the beans to Cersei she will just flee to Essos' Stark). We can safely presume that they aren't exactly the apex of diplomacy and strategic thinking.

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Funny, I thought about this quote from Cersei when I responded to you. But what Cersei finds hot and what Lyanna stark find hot would, I think inarguably, be two very different things. Cersei loved beauty the way that she and Jamie had, elegant, refined beauty. While we don't know a ton about Lyanna we do know she is a bit of a tomboy. That kind of girl might be far more inclined to find a man like Robert, the rough around the edges, massive young lord who was like a "maidens fantasy" and who didn't deftly joust but was a blunt instrument warrior.

 

In the same what that the men who Sansa found beautiful (Joffery, Loras, Renly, Jamie) Arya demurred from to say the least I would suggest that the tastes between a young Cersei and young Lyanna would be very similarly opposite.

 

We know so little of Lyanna so we can't really answer to that can we? What we know is that Rhaegar's music made Lyanna cry, which suggest that the crown prince could raise some deep emotions in the girl. We also know that Rhaegar was hot, really really hot + she wasn't happy in marrying Robert. The fact that Ned never said anything against Rhaegar kind of shows that the attraction was mutual.

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Here is a solid argument. If the claim is that, like Arya, Lyanna simply didn't want to be married off to some southern lord she may, in her own way, have been playing Rhaegar to get out of the marriage with no real desire to marry him and the pregnancy (and of course her death in childbirth) itself was unintended. Maybe to her 16 year old mind, running off with Rhaegar would be a good way of showing her father xyz or making herself unacceptable to the young storm lord. Back to your point about Rhaegar being one person who could have the power to somehow get her out of this arrangement which I agree makes sense, if we add to it that maybe she was playing her own game here it would make a lot more sense. But while we know very little about Lyanna, one thing we do know from her own words to Ned, is that what is important to her is that a husband remains to one woman....back to her objection to Robert simply being he would never keep to one bed....there is no way you go to being the second wife of a prince who already has an heir in exchange to being the only wife of a lord who will likely bed a lot of whores. Of course, she could be lying to Ned but this is all we have to work on here.

That's a solid possibility, although, tbf, I cant see Rhaegar forcing himself into Lyanna. There's nothing that suggest that he was that type of man. If he did force himself on her then surely Ned would be much more judgemental when discussing about him, which is not the case.


 

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 what I can not buy is that Lyanna didn't know that she would be dishonoring Robert, her Father and have broken a solemn promise which is kind of something which is ingrained in the starks at a very young age....and further can't buy that Rhaegar, even if he did think the gamble was worth it, didn't see how the law of unanticipated consequences could have been totally disastrous for him personally, but might also cause the end of the 300 year Targaryen reign and bring the end of his house. This is a high stakes game he is playing

As said before, consensual sex between two adults (and the medieval world women became adults when they have their P) is hardly a crime. Both Brandon and Robert had sex with women of noble birth who weren't their wives. The bloodraven was himself a bastard while LF was able to go to Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. No one ever called the banners for that. In matter of fact Robert was forced to embelish this charade into Lyanna's kidnap. In reality he has no proof to back that. 

Also note that the one who caused the rebellion was Aerys not Rhaegar. The Vale, North, Stormlands and the Riverlands remained loyal despite

a- Lyanna's kidnap
b- Brandon's arrest
c- Rickard's and Brandon's execution

Even then a substantial amount of houses either took Aerys side or stayed neutral. The Tullys remained neutral up until they convinced the Starks and the Arryn to marry their girls. 
 

They only rebelled when Jon Arryn was expected to break guest rights and execute 2 innocent warden/LPs. That is what caused the war not Rhaegar

Edited by devilish

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Hmm....I wouldn't really use modern mentality to judge medieval morality. People used to marry very early those days and with mortality being set so high, no one really bothered about childbirth. 

If a child did get married it usually to another child and they didn't consummate the marriage until they were a lot older, there was no point marrying a kid because she wouldn't know how to look after a household or be developed enough to have children. Also in Westerosi culture adult men marrying child brides is seen as perverse.

I've studied the medieval period and I can assure you people were bothered about childbirth, when the majority of your kids won't pass infancy you need to have as many as possible and that's not going to happen if the mother's body is too young. Look at what happened to Margaret Beaufort because she gave birth at 13, it was out of sheer luck that Henry VII wasn't a girl or died prematurely because he's the only child she can have.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

TBF though neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna expected the disaster that would happen afterwards. 

Lyanna maybe she was only 15, but I highly doubt Rhaegar was didn't know the repercussions of his actions. He was groomed to be King of Westeros as was 25 he just didn't care because he's an idiot.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

What Rhaegar-Lyanna did was inconvenient but it wasnt a crime. Brandon Stark was doing the same with Barbrey and Robert would do the same with the Florent girl. 

It's not the same thing, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and her family didn't know what happened to her that's not the same thing as deflowering a maid with no intention of marrying her. Also seeing as he still didn't make an appearance even after Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard Stark, and even when Westeros collapsed into civil war says a lot about Rhaegar and it's not pretty.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Actually Lyanna got a far better treatment than Elia and her children. I'd rather spend my life at the tower of joy with some of the finest KGs to protecting me then in KL as pawn to Aerys and later on as an obstacle for Tywin and his plans.

Lyanna shouldn't have been in the Tower of Joy in the first place, what makes you think she'd be fine with being a prisoner instead of being with her family especially if she found out what happened to her brother and father.

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If a child did get married it usually to another child and they didn't consummate the marriage until they were a lot older, there was no point marrying a kid because she wouldn't know how to look after a household or be developed enough to have children. Also in Westerosi culture adult men marrying child brides is seen as perverse.

I've studied the medieval period and I can assure you people were bothered about childbirth, when the majority of your kids won't pass infancy you need to have as many as possible and that's not going to happen if the mother's body is too young. Look at what happened to Margaret Beaufort because she gave birth at 13, it was out of sheer luck that Henry VII wasn't a girl or died prematurely because he's the only child she can have.

 

Not really. In the medieval time women were considered as an extra mouth to feed. Hence why they were married relatively early. Their parents weren't extensively fussy whom they marry as long as they left the nest. In my country there's a nursery ryhme about a knight and a father negotiating a marriage deal. Its quite creepy considering that most knights in my country were vowed to celebacy.

TBF mothering bastards from a knight sworn for celebacy wasn't a bad thing in a society were poverty was rife. I once visited a palace built for one of these ladies. Its a 6 bedroom palace, in a prime location (for the time) and it was surrounded by fields who could easily feed a big family. 

You're not the only one who studied medieval history

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Lyanna maybe she was only 15, but I highly doubt Rhaegar was didn't know the repercussions of his actions. He was groomed to be King of Westeros as was 25 he just didn't care because he's an idiot.

What repercussions exactly? 

Sex between consenting adults is not a crime in GOT. Brandon had sex with Barbrey, Aegon the unworthy had a horde of women of noble descend as paramours, Robert had sex with a Florent girl while half of her clan was present and even LF was able to go in Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck.

Robert's rebellion started not because of Rhaegar. In matter of fact Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. It started because Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn break guest rights by executing 2 innocent wards.

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It's not the same thing, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and her family didn't know what happened to her that's not the same thing as deflowering a maid with no intention of marrying her. Also seeing as he still didn't make an appearance even after Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard Stark, and even when Westeros collapsed into civil war says a lot about Rhaegar and it's not pretty.

As good old Winston Churchill said "History is written by the victors". That term is more relevant the more you go back in time, mainly because the media was poorly developed and often controlled by the state.  

Apart from Robert there is nothing that suggest that Lyanna was kidnapped. If she was then rest assured that history would have remembered him far less kindly then it did. Instead, there's barely any bad word said about him and that include Ned who lost half of his family in that mess.

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even when Westeros collapsed into civil war says a lot about Rhaegar and it's not pretty

That's true. There again we need to take things into context. The tourney of Harrenhal was meant to be an opportunity for Rhaegar to make enough allies to topple the king. That plan backfired spectacularly. Rhaegar might well have been a wanted man at that point.

It was within Rhaegar's interest to lay low and get Lyanna pregnant before returning to public office. Once it was confirmed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, then the Starks would have no choice but to accept the new circumstances handled to them, same as the Brackens and the Blackwells did before them. Lyanna's future would be tied to Jon's and Jon's future will be tied to that of his father. That's the reason why Ned couldn't spill the beans about JS origins to his best friend. 

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Lyanna shouldn't have been in the Tower of Joy in the first place, what makes you think she'd be fine with being a prisoner instead of being with her family especially if she found out what happened to her brother and father

What makes you think that she was a prisoner in the first place? Unlike Elia who was a mere pawn in the mad king's hand, Lyanna was far away from war and surrounded by KG sworn to protect her. Sir Arthur Dayne was possibly the most honourable men in all Westeros (at par with Selmy).  I bet Elia would have swapped her position with Lyanna at any time. 

 

Edited by devilish

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20 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Going back to OP's point; it was neither lust or love.  

Rhaegar wanted his Visenya and coerced a 15 year old child into giving him to her despite knowing full well the dangers of child birth for someone so young. 

And maybe Lyanna did fancy him but it wasn't a deep love and I doubt it lasted that long when he locked her up in a tower

While I have problems with the idea of Lyanna taking a fancy to Rhaegar for the reasons I listed above, I can buy the idea that from Lyanna's POV Rhaegar could get her out of her marriage and she was playing a game that she was too young and too headstrong to realize was well over her head. But that, of course, brings me back to Rhaegar's motivation here. @devilish makes a fair point about a gamble that Rhaegar was taking involving Lyanna making things right with Rickard, giving up on houses already lost to him, and forming a decent alliance after being outed at Harrenhall...but in the end this is a HUGE what if with a ton of variables and ways it could go wrong and unless Rhaegar was totally out of his mind at this point he had to understand that there was not just an enormous risk of this plan going sour but that should it go sour the chances that his family, his house and a 300 year Targaryen reign would be destroyed were very, very real

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2 hours ago, devilish said:

Not really. In the medieval time women were considered as an extra mouth to feed. Hence why they were married relatively early. 

As I said before I've studied medieval history and the main purpose of women was to have as many children (preferably sons) as possible, this is something grown adults around 17 can do a lot better than pubescent teenagers. There's no logic in impregnating a 15 year old girl because the chances of both her and the baby dying are too high, Rhaegar knew this because the same thing happened to his mother and I'm pretty sure Lyanna also knew the dangers of childbirth as well which is why I doubt she'd want to be pregnant. 

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Sex between consenting adults is not a crime in GOT.

Kidnapping a liege lord's daughter who is also betrothed to another liege lord on the other hand is, also Lyanna is not an adult

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Robert's rebellion started not because of Rhaegar. In matter of fact Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. It started because Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn break guest rights by executing 2 innocent wards.

Aerys may have started the war but it was Rhaegar's actions that caused it, what kind of an idiot waits until the last minute make an appearance to a civil war against their own house? 

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Apart from Robert there is nothing that suggest that Lyanna was kidnapped. If she was then rest assured that history would have remembered him far less kindly then it did. 

Lyanna's consent is dubious at most, just because she agreed to go with Rhaegar doesn't mean she consented to be locked up in the Tower of Joy just so he could he get a baby out of her. Besides my point wasn't about what actually happened, it's about what Rhaegar let people think happened.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

It was within Rhaegar's interest to lay low and get Lyanna pregnant before returning to public office. 

The thing is we don't know if Lyanna wanted to get pregnant, she wanted freedom but going from the future Lady Baratheon to Rhaegar's mistress (or second wife) is just trading one prison for another.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Once it was confirmed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, then the Starks would have no choice but to accept the new circumstances handled to them, same as the Brackens and the Blackwells did before them.

But he didn't and that's the issue, if he gone directly to Rickard and said he wants Lyanna as a second wife I doubt her father would say no because it benefits his Southern ambitions and would make his daughter and granddaughter queens. Instead he ran off with a 15 year old girl without telling her family thus making them think the worst.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

What makes you think that she was a prisoner in the first place? ... Lyanna was far away from war and surrounded by KG sworn to protect her.

Because she was in the Tower of Joy far from the rest of the world surrounded by Rhaegar's men who were willing to kill her own brother rather than let him get to her despite her screaming his name. Does that sound like someone who is free?

2 hours ago, devilish said:

I bet Elia would have swapped her position with Lyanna at any time. 

That means nothing, yes Lyanna was safer than Elia but that doesn't mean she wanted to be there. 

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

While I have problems with the idea of Lyanna taking a fancy to Rhaegar for the reasons I listed above, I can buy the idea that from Lyanna's POV Rhaegar could get her out of her marriage and she was playing a game that she was too young and too headstrong to realize was well over her head. But that, of course, brings me back to Rhaegar's motivation here. @devilish makes a fair point about a gamble that Rhaegar was taking involving Lyanna making things right with Rickard, giving up on houses already lost to him, and forming a decent alliance after being outed at Harrenhall...but in the end this is a HUGE what if with a ton of variables and ways it could go wrong and unless Rhaegar was totally out of his mind at this point he had to understand that there was not just an enormous risk of this plan going sour but that should it go sour the chances that his family, his house and a 300 year Targaryen reign would be destroyed were very, very real

If we rely solely on the timeline then the risk was relatively small. No one called the bannermen because of it. Rickard remained in Winterfell and Robert remained at the Vale.  The only person who overreacted was the ‘wild’ wolf. Even then, his backup was relatively small which clearly suggest that his actions weren’t supported by the big houses. The 4 big houses remained loyal throughout Brandon’s arrest and Rickard and Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when given no choice but to rebel (Aerys couldn’t expect Jon A to break guest rights and he certainly couldn’t expect Ned and Bob to willingly remove their heads from their necks) and even then the Tullys needed ‘persuasion’ and 3 of the 4 houses involved found local opposition. 


There again, I’m basing my argument on the timeline. We know nothing about what was going behind the scenes and we’ll certainly wouldn’t be able to know the truth considering that all major players are now dead (Jon A, Robert B, Aerys, Rhaegar, Hoster T, Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Ned S)


While your argument is extremely relevant I do think that it has 1 weakspot. You’re basing the risk around Rhaegar’s actions with little to no care about Rhaegar’s inaction. Aerys was a paranoid and abusive man who treated both Tywin and Rhaella like rubbish. After Duskendale, Rhaegar became his target and Aerys took every opportunity to weaken him and/or provoke him while glorifying Viserys, which, of course, was bad news for Rhaegar.  Prior to Lyanna’s ‘kidnap’ Rhaegar was forced into a marriage that automatically stripped him from his biggest ally. His children were being insulted in court, his younger brother was being glorified by Aerys and Elia was fast transitioning from future queen to a glorified hostage. Harrenhal was Rhaegar’s only chance of building up enough allies to be able to dethrone Aerys yet it backfired spectacularly. If Aerys could go in such extent to punish his son merely because he accepted such endorsement then we can only imagine how he would act now, that he’s got a certain reassurance about Rhaegar’s defiance.


TBF I find Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s reunion fishy. At the beginning of GOT we see Robert travelling from KL to Winterfell. Robert is a seasoned warrior who’s not particularly obsessed about his own safety (ie he goes hunting for boars while drunk). Yet the man made sure to take a group 300 men strong which included the Hound and Jamie Lannister.Yet we’re made to believe that Lyanna can suddenly pop in near Harrenhal with no military escort and with her father not knowing where the hell she is.  

Now I acknowledge that Robert was king that he was taking his family with him and that Harrenhal is closer to Winterfell than KL is. However I still struggle to believe how Lyanna could vanish from Winterfell, leave the North, pass through Riverlands territory and meet the crown prince without Rickard being able to track her down. The fact that Lyanna happened to be close to Harrenhal when Rhaegar was there is quite amazing too. It’s evident that the two had planned this before. The answer is how? Winterfell is miles away from KL and the only viable way of communication between the two would be through ravens.  Surely Maester Walys would have told Rickard of Lyanna’s silly plot. Unless of course, Walys (whose accused by Barbrey to be the centrepiece of Rickard’s southern ambition plan) knew about it and was quite happy with the plan. Maybe a crown prince was a better option for Rickard’s Southern ambitions then the LP of the smallest and most loyal region in Westeros?

Of course Rickard the honourable couldnt afford being portrayed as a man who broke a bethronal simply because there's a better offer on the table. That's unacceptable. However what happens if lets say Lyanna find herself near Harrenhal and the girl ends up fleeing with Rhaegar out of her own free will? Surely that cant be attributed to Rickard. 

 

That would explain why Rickard unlike his ignorant son remained so calm about Lyanna’s abduction. It also explains why Rickard was so confident that Aerys would release his boy (they were kind of family now) and why the mad king went so tough against the Starks (he's mad not stupid). 
 

Edited by devilish

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35 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

As I said before I've studied medieval history and the main purpose of women was to have as many children (preferably sons) as possible, this is something grown adults around 17 can do a lot better than pubescent teenagers. There's no logic in impregnating a 15 year old girl because the chances of both her and the baby dying are too high, Rhaegar knew this because the same thing happened to his mother and I'm pretty sure Lyanna also knew the dangers of childbirth as well which is why I doubt she'd want to be pregnant. 

Kidnapping a liege lord's daughter who is also betrothed to another liege lord on the other hand is, also Lyanna is not an adult

Aerys may have started the war but it was Rhaegar's actions that caused it, what kind of an idiot waits until the last minute make an appearance to a civil war against their own house? 

Lyanna's consent is dubious at most, just because she agreed to go with Rhaegar doesn't mean she consented to be locked up in the Tower of Joy just so he could he get a baby out of her. Besides my point wasn't about what actually happened, it's about what Rhaegar let people think happened.

The thing is we don't know if Lyanna wanted to get pregnant, she wanted freedom but going from the future Lady Baratheon to Rhaegar's mistress (or second wife) is just trading one prison for another.

But he didn't and that's the issue, if he gone directly to Rickard and said he wants Lyanna as a second wife I doubt her father would say no because it benefits his Southern ambitions and would make his daughter and granddaughter queens. Instead he ran off with a 15 year old girl without telling her family thus making them think the worst.

Because she was in the Tower of Joy far from the rest of the world surrounded by Rhaegar's men who were willing to kill her own brother rather than let him get to her despite her screaming his name. Does that sound like someone who is free?

That means nothing, yes Lyanna was safer than Elia but that doesn't mean she wanted to be there. 

pls read my previous post

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3 minutes ago, devilish said:

TBF I find Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s reunion fishy.

It amazes me that after years of this stuff there are still some days when I am totally thrown. There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Lyanna makes that trip. I mean, with a similar sized retinue how long was arya missing before half the court was out on horseback looking for her as Robert sat the high chair in Darry? The idea of a crown prince in Rickard's sourthern ambitions is, of course, one possibility....as is the idea that this whole rebellion...from the "kidnapping of lyanna" was some Jon Arryn/Hoster Tully/Rickard Stark plan in the first place and the one contingency not factored in was that Arys, even as mad as he was, would execute his Warden of the North and his Heir. Sorry, I am off on a tangent now and have no choice but to let it out....

 

After Elbert Arryn was murdered in Kings Landing by Areys it is not beyond possible that Jon contemplated open rebellion. His connection to Robert (and I think it is fair to say given Robert's personality, the voyage that killed Lord Stephan made him ripe for rebellion talk) and the newfound alliance between Tully and Stark through the pending marriage of Brandon and Cat along with a very discontent Tywin (who could at this point at least be assumed to wait to see who was winning and possibly be turned) make for an incredibly strong alliance.  I think it is a big unanswered question why Robert, then the lord of storm's end in his own right, was dicking around the vale with Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. While Rhaegar underestimated Brandon's reaction, surely Rickard wouldn't. Is it possible that it wasn't Rhaegar that underestimated Brandon, but rather Rickard who underestimated Aryes? Would Rickard be willing to put his own daughter into play to make a power move? Might this be the real crime of the southern ambitions?

So we have Jon Arryn rightly aggrieved with the crown over the murder of Elbert, an impatient and head strong Lord Robert (somewhat rightfully) aggrieved about the death of his parents and an ambitious Rickard who uses Lyanna as bait to set Brandon off on a rampage. Could Ned and Robert have been in the Vale to work this out?

 

More to think through....apologies for disjointed nature of this now.

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3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

It amazes me that after years of this stuff there are still some days when I am totally thrown. There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Lyanna makes that trip. I mean, with a similar sized retinue how long was arya missing before half the court was out on horseback looking for her as Robert sat the high chair in Darry? The idea of a crown prince in Rickard's sourthern ambitions is, of course, one possibility....as is the idea that this whole rebellion...from the "kidnapping of lyanna" was some Jon Arryn/Hoster Tully/Rickard Stark plan in the first place and the one contingency not factored in was that Arys, even as mad as he was, would execute his Warden of the North and his Heir. Sorry, I am off on a tangent now and have no choice but to let it out....

 

After Elbert Arryn was murdered in Kings Landing by Areys it is not beyond possible that Jon contemplated open rebellion. His connection to Robert (and I think it is fair to say given Robert's personality, the voyage that killed Lord Stephan made him ripe for rebellion talk) and the newfound alliance between Tully and Stark through the pending marriage of Brandon and Cat along with a very discontent Tywin (who could at this point at least be assumed to wait to see who was winning and possibly be turned) make for an incredibly strong alliance.  I think it is a big unanswered question why Robert, then the lord of storm's end in his own right, was dicking around the vale with Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. While Rhaegar underestimated Brandon's reaction, surely Rickard wouldn't. Is it possible that it wasn't Rhaegar that underestimated Brandon, but rather Rickard who underestimated Aryes? Would Rickard be willing to put his own daughter into play to make a power move? Might this be the real crime of the southern ambitions?

So we have Jon Arryn rightly aggrieved with the crown over the murder of Elbert, an impatient and head strong Lord Robert (somewhat rightfully) aggrieved about the death of his parents and an ambitious Rickard who uses Lyanna as bait to set Brandon off on a rampage. Could Ned and Robert have been in the Vale to work this out?

 

More to think through....apologies for disjointed nature of this now.

Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted.

We have proof to that later in the books. Cat Tully was older then her, she wasn't being searched and knew the South much more then the she wolf did and yet she was spotted twice, first when entering KL and then in the inn at the crossroads. Arya was protected by way better people then Lyanna was (who went solo) but ended up first captured by Lannister men and then by Sandor Clegane.

Not to forget that the Riverlands were pro Stark. There was much bigger chance for good old Hoster or one of his Lords to find Lyanna and send her packing back to Winterfell then for Rhaegar to spot her and take her to Dorne. Yet, Lyanna was lucky/unlucky enough to be spotted by Rhaegar first who happened to be travelling there alongside 2 KG.  

Considering the ridiculously long distance between KL and Winterfell its pretty obvious that Lyanna had help. Winterfell was pretty isolated so a Southern messenger would be spotted miles away especially if he dares speaking with Rickard's kid. We must presume that the two 'lovebirds' communicated through ravens. We all know who takes of that and how much influence the old maester had on Rickard.

Considering that

a- the North didn't go to full lock down when Lyanna vanished
b- Lyanna managed to cover so many miles without being spotted
c- Her timing was impeccable (Rhaegar seem to be waiting for her)
d- Rickard was quite nonchalant about Lyanna's kidnap
 

Then we can presume that he knew exactly what was going on and was quite happy about it. 

Regarding Brandon....well, the boy was hardly the brightest person around and at the time he was very busy playing bf and gf with Barbrey and most possibly half a dozen other girls. So its possibly that Rickard decided to keep him in the dark on that one (which explains why the wild wolf went to KL and made a fool of himself). Same thing can be said about the so much righteous Ned who was tucked in the Vale at close proximity to Robert B. 

So lets make a list of events removing Brandon's arrest out of the equation


-  Aerys insults Tywin enough for the old lion to resign from HOTK and retire in CR
- Jon A take Ned and Robert as wards
-  Rickard accepts Brandon's bethonal to Cat and Lyanna's bethonal to Robert
-  Rhaegar make preparations for a coup. Meeting place Harrenhal
-  Ashara Dayne play Ned like a flute.
-  Aerys gatecrashes the meeting. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna queen of beauty 
-  A year later Lyanna teleports herself in front of Harrenhal. Rhaegar flees to Dorne with her
-  Rhaegar returns to the Riverlands with Lyanna and a dragon/wolf pup at her breast. Hoster (whose now family since his daughter is married to Rickard's son) act as an intermediary between the wolf and the crown prince. Sir Arthur offer a marriage between Ashara and Ned as a sweetener. Rickard has 'no choice' but to accept their union
-  The Martells play the victim card and push Aerys to do something. The mad king give more power to Lewyn Martell, thinking that they are at his side. Instead Leywn Martell uses such power to make Elia and her children escape to Dorne.
-  Rhaegar call the banners. The North, the Riverlands and Dorne answer his call. Aerys orders Ned's execution dragging the Vale into war. Jon A arrest Robert forcing the Stormlands to stay neutral
-  Surrounded by Dorne in the South, the Riverlands in the North and the Vale at the east, Mace decides not to charge into battle. Aerys is dethroned and Rhaegar takes his place.
- Rhaegar revert the rules of marriage. He marries Lyanna who becomes queen at par to Elia and Jon becomes third in line to the throne.

Unfortunately an ignorant Brandon gatecrashed everything and as you said, Rickard ended up underestimating Aerys (who, in my opinion, saw through this whole charade)

 

Edited by devilish

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:49 PM, devilish said:

Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted.

We have proof to that later in the books. Cat Tully was older then her, she wasn't being searched and knew the South much more then the she wolf did and yet she was spotted twice, first when entering KL and then in the inn at the crossroads. Arya was protected by way better people then Lyanna was (who went solo) but ended up first captured by Lannister men and then by Sandor Clegane.

Not to forget that the Riverlands were pro Stark. There was much bigger chance for good old Hoster or one of his Lords to find Lyanna and send her packing back to Winterfell then for Rhaegar to spot her and take her to Dorne. Yet, Lyanna was lucky/unlucky enough to be spotted by Rhaegar first who happened to be travelling there alongside 2 KG.  

Considering the ridiculously long distance between KL and Winterfell its pretty obvious that Lyanna had help. Winterfell was pretty isolated so a Southern messenger would be spotted miles away especially if he dares speaking with Rickard's kid. We must presume that the two 'lovebirds' communicated through ravens. We all know who takes of that and how much influence the old maester had on Rickard.

Considering that

a- the North didn't go to full lock down when Lyanna vanished
b- Lyanna managed to cover so many miles without being spotted
c- Her timing was impeccable (Rhaegar seem to be waiting for her)
d- Rickard was quite nonchalant about Lyanna's kidnap
 

Then we can presume that he knew exactly what was going on and was quite happy about it. 

Regarding Brandon....well, the boy was hardly the brightest person around and at the time he was very busy playing bf and gf with Barbrey and most possibly half a dozen other girls. So its possibly that Rickard decided to keep him in the dark on that one (which explains why the wild wolf went to KL and made a fool of himself). Same thing can be said about the so much righteous Ned who was tucked in the Vale at close proximity to Robert B. 

So lets make a list of events removing Brandon's arrest out of the equation


-  Aerys insults Tywin enough for the old lion to resign from HOTK and retire in CR
- Jon A take Ned and Robert as wards
-  Rickard accepts Brandon's bethonal to Cat and Lyanna's bethonal to Robert
-  Rhaegar make preparations for a coup. Meeting place Harrenhal
-  Ashara Dayne play Ned like a flute.
-  Aerys gatecrashes the meeting. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna queen of beauty 
-  A year later Lyanna teleports herself in front of Harrenhal. Rhaegar flees to Dorne with her
-  Rhaegar returns to the Riverlands with Lyanna and a dragon/wolf pup at her breast. Hoster (whose now family since his daughter is married to Rickard's son) act as an intermediary between the wolf and the crown prince. Sir Arthur offer a marriage between Ashara and Ned as a sweetener. Rickard has 'no choice' but to accept their union
-  The Martells play the victim card and push Aerys to do something. The mad king give more power to Lewyn Martell, thinking that they are at his side. Instead Leywn Martell uses such power to make Elia and her children escape to Dorne.
-  Rhaegar call the banners. The North, the Riverlands and Dorne answer his call. Aerys orders Ned's execution dragging the Vale into war. Jon A arrest Robert forcing the Stormlands to stay neutral
-  Surrounded by Dorne in the South, the Riverlands in the North and the Vale at the east, Mace decides not to charge into battle. Aerys is dethroned and Rhaegar takes his place.
- Rhaegar revert the rules of marriage. He marries Lyanna who becomes queen at par to Elia and Jon becomes third in line to the throne.

Unfortunately an ignorant Brandon gatecrashed everything and as you said, Rickard ended up underestimating Aerys (who, in my opinion, saw through this whole charade)

 

Devilish, I gotta say...I am sold. The whole thing. You made the case wonderfully right down to Areys seeing through the whole thing (maybe being as cruel as everyone said but possibly not as mad). Just spectacular.

I am reminded of another stark girl run away coincidence that seems a little too much....Arya on the Titan's daughter. I know it is almost taboo to mention Preston Jacobs at this point, but I really like him. I am not a fan boy who thinks he is always right, but I do like the way he thinks about some things and one of them is the argument about how odd it is that Arya winds up in Braavos.


JH Gives the coin (which he somehow held on to in the black cells) and says give the coin to any man from Braavos...etc. Preston points out that this is obviously an insane claim and huge lie. Any man from Braavos would in no way have the same reaction. Braavos is way too big and too diverse. Specifically worshipers of R'hollor would not be friendly towards the facelessmen.And further, on the Titan's daughter, some of the crew shuns arya. So who is the first Braavosi she meets? The captain of the titans daughter. She tells JH she is going to winterfell from harrenhall and the first port she passes is salt pans and boom, a ship called the Titan's daughter with a bravossi captain is waiting for her. In AFFC we learn that saltpans is "not a major port and ships only go there from time to time" and further, much of saltpans was in ruins anyway...even in good times it would be odd to have a ship there, especially a braavosi galley, and most especially when salt pans was basically in ruins.


Ternesio Terys tells Arya that the ship rounded crackclaw point on their way to salt pans so they came from the south. Then they go to saltpans and then say they are going to head home to Braavos with no stops. So a trading galley goes to a minor port in an area decimated by war and then totally skips past gulltown on the way home. Then the captain, once arriving in braavos, gets nervous about the sea lords customs officer finding arya on his ship so the captain has his son lower a boat and sneak arya into braavos and take her to the shore which further points to the fact that JH's claim that any man from braavos would help once they saw the coin and she said valar morghulis.

 

So here is the interesting thing. We have been set up since fairly early on in book 1 that there is a connection of sorts between Lyanna and Arya.

We also see Arya and Lyanna going missing with handsome men (well Arya doesn't actually go with JH but goes where he wanted her to go) to really kind of remote places (Dorne and Braavos). I am not sure what to make of this but there is a lot of similarity between the "kidnap" of Lyanna the way you describe it and Arya disappearing into Braavos. Worth considering.

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On 9/8/2017 at 1:49 PM, devilish said:

Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted.

You are assuming that she returned to Winterfell after the tournament at Harrenhal.  However, given that she was slated to marry a prominent Southern lord, it would have made sense for her to remain in the South to learn Southern ideas and customs.  I think she was likely a guest of the Whents and was taken on her way to Riverrun for her brother's wedding.  Given that the Riverlands was at that time, a safe and friendly area, she would have likely had a small escort, designed to deter random robbers and others who would be tempted by a girl alone, but unable to deal with a well-armed party led by a prince.

5 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am reminded of another stark girl run away coincidence that seems a little too much....Arya on the Titan's daughter. I know it is almost taboo to mention Preston Jacobs at this point, but I really like him. I am not a fan boy who thinks he is always right, but I do like the way he thinks about some things and one of them is the argument about how odd it is that Arya winds up in Braavos.


JH Gives the coin (which he somehow held on to in the black cells) and says give the coin to any man from Braavos...etc. Preston points out that this is obviously an insane claim and huge lie. Any man from Braavos would in no way have the same reaction. Braavos is way too big and too diverse. Specifically worshipers of R'hollor would not be friendly towards the facelessmen.And further, on the Titan's daughter, some of the crew shuns arya. So who is the first Braavosi she meets? The captain of the titans daughter. She tells JH she is going to winterfell from harrenhall and the first port she passes is salt pans and boom, a ship called the Titan's daughter with a bravossi captain is waiting for her. In AFFC we learn that saltpans is "not a major port and ships only go there from time to time" and further, much of saltpans was in ruins anyway...even in good times it would be odd to have a ship there, especially a braavosi galley, and most especially when salt pans was basically in ruins.

I know this is OT, but ... Jaqen gives her the coin knowing that Sandor Clegane is going to take her to a point conveniently near to Saltpans, where she can just as conveniently take a ship to Braavos?  Even if  you accept a certain amount of foreknowledge, this is completely ridiculous.  In fact, right up to the moment she sets foot on the galley, the betting odds of her ever winding up in Braavos were well under even money.

Either Jaqen had a foretelling vision of her arrival in Braavos, or he gave her the coin not expecting her to actually use it, but knowing that if she ever had to, as a prominent Westerosi, she could be useful to them.  Anything else really doesn't make much sense.

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14 hours ago, Nevets said:

Either Jaqen had a foretelling vision of her arrival in Braavos

Doesn't have to be a foretelling vision if he is the one who hired the Titan's Daughter to be in Saltpans, an out of the way minor port which is in disuse due to war, rather than the far more likely convenient port of gulltown on the direct route which is a major port and still doing commerce. There is no reason for any trading galley to be in salt pans, let alone a braavosi one, let alone a braavosi one heading directly back to Braavos without stopping at gulltown, and one who happens to have a captain who is sympathetic and predisposed to helping faceless men. This was to illustrate more clearly the parallel with @devilish point that a lot of very odd and unlikely things had to happen for Rhaegar to run into Lyanna.

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10 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Doesn't have to be a foretelling vision if he is the one who hired the Titan's Daughter to be in Saltpans, an out of the way minor port which is in disuse due to war, rather than the far more likely convenient port of gulltown on the direct route which is a major port and still doing commerce. There is no reason for any trading galley to be in salt pans, let alone a braavosi one, let alone a braavosi one heading directly back to Braavos without stopping at gulltown, and one who happens to have a captain who is sympathetic and predisposed to helping faceless men. This was to illustrate more clearly the parallel with @devilish point that a lot of very odd and unlikely things had to happen for Rhaegar to run into Lyanna.

If, as I believe, Lyanna remained at Harrenhal a a guest of the Whents (at least until her brother's wedding), then all Rhaegar ha to do si find out her travel plans to get to Brandon's wedding in Riverrun.  Probably half of Harrenhal knows when she's leaving, so all Rhaegar has to do is find a suitable spot for an ambush.  Sounds pretty easy and straightforward to me.

As for Arya, the master doesn't have to be favorably disposed to the Faceless Men to give her a ride.  He just has to be afraid of them, and fear what would happen if he refused a simple request for transport from an apparent FM agent.  Brienne saw Titan's Daughter on a later trip in Maidenpool (it was months later so is not the same trip), suggesting that the galley goes to the region regularly, and probably has traders it deals with on a regular basis (including in Saltpans before it was destroyed).  And how, again, is Jaqen supposed to know Arya is going to show up in Saltpans?  There are way too many intervening events after she leaves Harrenhal for anyone to know what might happen.

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13 hours ago, Nevets said:

If, as I believe, Lyanna remained at Harrenhal a a guest of the Whents (at least until her brother's wedding), then all Rhaegar ha to do si find out her travel plans to get to Brandon's wedding in Riverrun.  Probably half of Harrenhal knows when she's leaving, so all Rhaegar has to do is find a suitable spot for an ambush.  Sounds pretty easy and straightforward to me.

This is, of course, possible and assumes the kidnap story to be accurate (I take that as your meaning by the word ambush please correct me if I am wrong). But, again, that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna seems full of a lot of holes including Rhaegar's character, Ned's feelings regarding Rhaegar, the high esteem Rhaegar was held in by men of outstanding character (Selmy, Dayne, Whent, Hightower), the fact that Rhaegar has shown himself to be calculating and that actually just abducting the daughter of the Warden of the North while trying to create alliances would be mind bogglingly foolish etc.

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

As for Arya, the master doesn't have to be favorably disposed to the Faceless Men to give her a ride.  He just has to be afraid of them, and fear what would happen if he refused a simple request for transport from an apparent FM agent.

The FM are not the mob nor are they murderers. They give the gift for very specific reasons. They aren't like the Bolton's who would be angry and possibly hostile unto death to a vassal who didn't honor a basic request of a lord. Further, it is quite obvious, despite JH's huge lie to Arya, that some braavosi are going to be antagonistic towards the FM. Braavos is too much of a multi cultural city to have this type of heterogeneous worship

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

 Brienne saw Titan's Daughter on a later trip in Maidenpool (it was months later so is not the same trip), suggesting that the galley goes to the region regularly, and probably has traders it deals with on a regular basis (including in Saltpans before it was destroyed).

True. But to go from Braavos to salt pans passing gulltown and then to return to braavos passing gulltown again when saltpans is out of the way, minor and at the time in a state of near destruction from war is so preposterous that it insists upon itself being interpreted.

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

 And how, again, is Jaqen supposed to know Arya is going to show up in Saltpans?

Arya is at Harrenhall when JH tells her to come with him to Braavos. Arya says no and that she is going to winterfell. Take a look at a map of westeros. Leaving Harrenhall to go north she has two places to catch a ship Darry and Saltpans. Paltpans is the more logical one as Darry is further inland. The captain of the Titan's Daughter says he came through the Bay of Crabs which means right past the port city of Gulltown, past Dyre Den on Crackclaw, passed Wickenden, past maiden pool but not all the way to Dary....stopped at Saltpans, the totally out of the way, destroyed by war port city which happens to be the most likely place, given geography and stated destination, from Arya to turn up. Doesn't take a faceless man to read a map.

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

 There are way too many intervening events after she leaves Harrenhal for anyone to know what might happen.

This is true there are....but no word on how long Titan's Daughter has been sitting at Saltpans or whether there were other agents looking to pick up Arya. In the end a faceless man was trying to get Arya Stark, a girl with special innate powers, tp the HOBAW at great personal sacrifice and he succeeded and every step along Arya's journey has made this easier for her.

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They were in love. They were selfish, that doesnt change it but they were totally totally in love. It obvious with him dying with "Lyanna" on his lips and her clutching those dead black roses that he gave her. And it was not prophecy and him being older and hotter and manipulating, imo. There was something else going on, we dont know. But if your asking the simple question about love or lust, its love.

P.s why do so many ppl think he's "prophecy obsessed" and wants a "visenya"? Theres no evidence for it. 

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3 hours ago, theShe_wolf said:

P.s why do so many ppl think he's "prophecy obsessed" and wants a "visenya"? Theres no evidence for it. 

There isn't. Dany mentions something about him missing a Visenya after her visit at the HotU, but as far as we know, Dany knows as much as the reader knows about what Rhaegar's intentions were. I don't think he was obsessed like fandom makes him out to be or that he was looking to add a Visenya to his collection of children. He could have as easily been one of the heads of the dragon. And GRRM straight up said that Rhaegar was love-struck. So at the very least it seems to be that on his end. 

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