The Best commander in ASOIAF

[Romaine3]

Apologies to those who would accuse me of "necro'ing" this thread. However, I would like to get my two cents in on this.

Lots of great names on this list so far, great info, and opinions that make sense. If everything were on the line, and one man needed to lead a small group against an entire army to alter the landscape of a war, there is only one man that comes to my mind... The Living Legend himself, Ser Barristan Selmy.

Selmy has fought in more wars, battles, skirmishes, and single combat situations than anyone that I can think of mentioned in the series. First, he cut his teeth in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, then he cut his way through the Golden Company & killed Maelys the Monsterous, ending the war.

He proved himself as the Westeros version of Rambo during the Defiance of Duskendale. Here he scaled walls, sneaked around, assassinated guards, infiltrated a dungeon, Rescued the Kidnapped King, killed anyone who tried to raise the alarm, stole horses, and hauled ass through the gates with the King Aerys. Selmy took an arrow to the chest during the escape, but saved the King!

Next up, he defeated the infamous Smiling Knight and ended the guerrilla style raiding attacks of the outlaw band known as the Kingswood Brotherhood when he killed their leader, Simon Toyne.

During Robert's Rebellion, Prince Rhaegar chose his best friend (Arthur Dayne), The LC of the KG (The White Bull), and Ser Oswell Went to guard the Tower of Joy. Who did he choose to protect at the Trident? Ser Barristan of course! Ser Barristan was gravely injured during the battle, but killed at least a dozen of Roberts better knights. Robert himself respected Selmy so much, that he sent his own maester to tend to Selmy's wounds. Later, Robert pardoned Selmy and requested Ser Barristan to become the new LC of the Kingsguard.

GRRM wrote all of this about Selmy, and now we proceed to the amazing stuff he does in the books! Say what you will about the man, but you can't question his effectiveness in life or death scenario's. When all hell breaks loose, Selmy isn't the living embodiment of the Warrior, he's the Stranger...

Let's skip over all of the details of what he did at Old Wyk, he killed a bunch of ironborn. He becomes a man of action again after Joffrey's dismissess him from the KG. At age 60+, he travels half the world away and tracks down Daenerys. Saves her from a deadly manticore, an assassins blade, and Mero aka The Titans Bastard (Selmy kills him with a mere stick!)

He leads a suicide squad through the sewers of Mereen, slaughtering some soldiers on his way to getting the gates of the city open, so the rest of Dany's army could storm the city.

Finally, in ADWD, after Dany is rescued by Drogon, Selmy is forced to seize power to ensure his queen's rule continues in her absence. Having served so many different styles of rulers during his time, Ser Barristan is able to gain control along with the trust of the various sellswords/ pit fighters/ surprise entourage from Dorne/ remaining two Dragons.

The "sneak peek" POV chapter we get from him in WoW was amazing. I am excited for the novel to arrive! GRRM mentioned that there was a "twist" concerning a specific book character, I'm almost willing to bet that the twist applies to Selmy. No one else has the backstory and the real story like Selmy.

I hope he gets to go the distance. Now that he's hand of the queen, I hope that when he gets back to the 7 kingdoms he meets Allyria Dayne (and that she is the spitting image of her older sister), marries her, and gets to wield Dawn in the final battles.

Again, apologies for necroing the thread, but I felt this belonged here.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:51 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Stannis for sheer variety of wins and experience 

Tywins gotta be in there ....carried out the war vs multiple opponents  very well all while employing political mastery to end it.

Robbs clearly an excellent commander too pity politicaly he was far too honourable

Robert i feel is more of a figurehead and frontline tank ...an inspiration to the guys but its prob ned and stannis that were the reall commanders of the rebellion

There's literally no evidence that Ned was the "brains" behind the Rebellion and Stannis' own men consider Robert to be Stannis' superior.

[hodorisfaclessman]

On 05/09/2017 at 8:30 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

There's literally no evidence that Ned was the "brains" behind the Rebellion and Stannis' own men consider Robert to be Stannis' superior.

Except our knowledge of the 2 men

Yed everyone loved him hence stannis point aboutt him never reading a book....he was adored and was a beast in combat but clearly none too bright

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/18/2017 at 1:34 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Except our knowledge of the 2 men

Yed everyone loved him hence stannis point aboutt him never reading a book....he was adored and was a beast in combat but clearly none too bright

Our knowledge is that Robert gets far more praise.

I'm that same scene you're referencing, Stannis says he needs to be more like Robert to win.

[hodorisfaclessman]

On 25/04/2018 at 9:52 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Our knowledge is that Robert gets far more praise.

I'm that same scene you're referencing, Stannis says he needs to be more like Robert to win.

Win the affection of his men

Stannis is the brains (with ned and the former hand), robert is more of a fronline inspirational warrior type

[Trigger Warning]

5 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Win the affection of his men

Stannis is the brains (with ned and the former hand), robert is more of a fronline inspirational warrior type

Just because Robert was the archetypal warrior doesn't mean he's not the brains behind the battles, "that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident." This alone suggests that Robert was very much directing men on the Trident, he was quick to assess the situation at Summerhall and turn it to his advantage and at Ashford he withdrew in good order, it's pretty clear he has a solid head for warfare. 

Now this isn't a reply to Hodor but a general reply to the thread, I don't think any commander has that great of a record, there simply isn't enough material to determine that, especially with how peaceful Westeros seems to be compared to our own European feudal history, for anyone to have a reputation you'd expect there to be much more small scale conflict and border skirmishes between lords but the specifics just aren't there. I'd be tempted to argue for Stannis but then he's been in two horrible horrible military situations based purely on his belief in Melisandre, withstood one siege in one of the strongest castles in the land and defeated the Wildlings at the wall, now getting there may be logistically impressive but the actual battle was probably a given, I doubt that the Wildlings would have withstood that charge no matter who was in command. 

His most impressive victory is Fair Isle but again that's just because Victarion was tricked, I'm not sure whether  that's impressive or not, at that technological level in a naval battle it's basically the formation prior to battle and then numbers, the commander has very little control so I'm not sure that translates well into field command, again surrounding Victarion seems impressive but it doesn't seem unlikely that anyone else could have done the same with superior numbers. 

Again Stannis seems solid from everything we're told but the actual material doesn't really have that much to go on. We don't see any extended campaigns or the like because that'd probably be pretty boring fiction but I can't use that fourth wall justification to say why Stannis threw his army at King's Landing with enemies in the field so I either have to say he trusted Mel too much or he simply blundered. 

Stannis may be competent but I just don't see the military genius angle a lot of people come up with, at this point it seems to just be a meme that gets spread around in the general Stannis fandom. Stannis quality seems to be spoken of more than proven and I think that's because he's a decent commander with iron determination, I think that's where characters respect and fear him rather than as a military genius, hopefully he'll shine a bit more in Winds. 

Honestly Tywin seems pretty solid and this is based mostly off of the Reyne and Tarbeck rebellion and the way he held his forces together in the War of Five kings despite some pretty major setbacks, none of which were really within his control. At no point was he knocked out of the game despite these setbacks, he's cautious and pragmatic and knows when to commit and when not to but again there's really not much material to go on. 

[hodorisfaclessman]

8 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Just because Robert was the archetypal warrior doesn't mean he's not the brains behind the battles, "that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident." This alone suggests that Robert was very much directing men on the Trident, he was quick to assess the situation at Summerhall and turn it to his advantage and at Ashford he withdrew in good order, it's pretty clear he has a solid head for warfare. 

Now this isn't a reply to Hodor but a general reply to the thread, I don't think any commander has that great of a record, there simply isn't enough material to determine that, especially with how peaceful Westeros seems to be compared to our own European feudal history, for anyone to have a reputation you'd expect there to be much more small scale conflict and border skirmishes between lords but the specifics just aren't there. I'd be tempted to argue for Stannis but then he's been in two horrible horrible military situations based purely on his belief in Melisandre, withstood one siege in one of the strongest castles in the land and defeated the Wildlings at the wall, now getting there may be logistically impressive but the actual battle was probably a given, I doubt that the Wildlings would have withstood that charge no matter who was in command. 

His most impressive victory is Fair Isle but again that's just because Victarion was tricked, I'm not sure whether  that's impressive or not, at that technological level in a naval battle it's basically the formation prior to battle and then numbers, the commander has very little control so I'm not sure that translates well into field command, again surrounding Victarion seems impressive but it doesn't seem unlikely that anyone else could have done the same with superior numbers. 

Again Stannis seems solid from everything we're told but the actual material doesn't really have that much to go on. We don't see any extended campaigns or the like because that'd probably be pretty boring fiction but I can't use that fourth wall justification to say why Stannis threw his army at King's Landing with enemies in the field so I either have to say he trusted Mel too much or he simply blundered. 

Stannis may be competent but I just don't see the military genius angle a lot of people come up with, at this point it seems to just be a meme that gets spread around in the general Stannis fandom. Stannis quality seems to be spoken of more than proven and I think that's because he's a decent commander with iron determination, I think that's where characters respect and fear him rather than as a military genius, hopefully he'll shine a bit more in Winds. 

Honestly Tywin seems pretty solid and this is based mostly off of the Reyne and Tarbeck rebellion and the way he held his forces together in the War of Five kings despite some pretty major setbacks, none of which were really within his control. At no point was he knocked out of the game despite these setbacks, he's cautious and pragmatic and knows when to commit and when not to but again there's really not much material to go on. 

He can shout yeah probably an inspting figure shouting forward men and leading by example  and at ashford he withdrew in good order but that doesnt take any strategic thinking just training and nerves (plent of historic generals officers did so) and he was commanding a cavalry force which due to mobility are easy to extract anyeay unless hoplessly surrounded

General robert comes off as not really a thinker hence why its assumed he was more of a figurehead and frontline inspiration guy ,a hero really ....prob neck deep in the combat wheras stannis,ned , etc prob thought out the actual strategy 

Stannis rep comes from what hes done and what we know of the guy, hes very good as a general ...a man who knows every house in westeros strengths and  has shown great competence at sea and land

 

Tywin is probably the best general of the story though mixing the military with the political seemlesly as the historical great generals did

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

He can shout yeah probably an inspting figure shouting forward men and leading by example  and at ashford he withdrew in good order but that doesnt take any strategic thinking just training and nerves (plent of historic generals officers did so) and he was commanding a cavalry force which due to mobility are easy to extract anyeay unless hoplessly surrounded

General robert comes off as not really a thinker hence why its assumed he was more of a figurehead and frontline inspiration guy ,a hero really ....prob neck deep in the combat wheras stannis,ned , etc prob thought out the actual strategy 

Stannis rep comes from what hes done and what we know of the guy, hes very good as a general ...a man who knows every house in westeros strengths and  has shown great competence at sea and land

 

Tywin is probably the best general of the story though mixing the military with the political seemlesly as the historical great generals did

"Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay's, they will have you outnumbered five to one."

"My brother won battles at worse odds."

Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

"Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay's, they will have you outnumbered five to one."

"My brother won battles at worse odds."

What battle was that? Gulltown, where Jon Arryn massacared his constituents? Robert lost many battles, if it wasn't for Ned Jon and Hoster, it'd be a short war.

 

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

I don't think Stannis has enough soldiers to man Winterfell, though the shelter would be nice. Though I think it's a great idea to not take Winterfell until Tommen/Rooses army is gone, and perhaps Stannis saw that in his flames as well. 

The Bolton loyalists are griniding their teeth when they hear "Aryas" cries, but the heart tree is still there. Stannis would burn that tree like it threw 5$, which is the surest way of alienating all his northern soldiers. However letting the weirwood live would anger Rhollor and his southron soldiers.

 

Replaying to OP. I wanna say Tyrion or Jon because they're command was impeccable during ASOS, yet they haven't commanded since so 1 for 1 isn't great.

Dany and Robb, they're undefeated, young, famous and I believe the greatest commanders in asoiaf

[hodorisfaclessman]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

"Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay's, they will have you outnumbered five to one."

"My brother won battles at worse odds."

Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

He won battles yes but not by being any great planner or tactican nor do we know if stannis or ned etc were there tok

He was no idiot but  this statement shows he  clearly bold and able to inspire his men (and win over former enemies) and very agressive....none of that statement alters what iv said about him.not being a deep thinker as stannis clearly mentions as well (and roberts own actions / what we know of him)

We know that  that  his agression sometimes paid off (as it often can in war)  during rebellion sometimes  butalmost cost him his life and rebellion  twice (battle of bells and tarlys ambush)

[Trigger Warning]

18 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

He won battles yes but not by being any great planner or tactican

He was no idiot but as this statement shows he  clearly bold and able to inspire his men (and win over former enemies) and very agressive. 

We know that  that  agression paid off (as it often can in war)  during rebellion but almost cost him his life and rebellion  twice (battle of bells and tarlys ambush)

Can you say much different of Stannis? 
 

• Attacks Storm's End at a great disadvantage, wins through magic he claims he didn't know about. 
• Immediately marches against King's Landing, Tywin and Mace still in the field, loses most of his army. 
• Rushes North when prompted to save the Wall beyond supply, safety and power projection of Storm's End and Dragonstone. 
• Intends to march against the Dreadfort in terrible conditions as winter approaches with little hope of victory.
• Does the same against Winterfell but gains Deepwood and allies through Jon's counsel. 

Where is the great planning? All we know is that Robert won battles, by some accounts Alexander the Great was an aggressive drunk does that mean he was not a great planner or tactician, where has the book told you that Robert was not? If you're going to assert that being aggressive cost Robert Ashford then surely you'll lay the same criticism at Stannis for the Blackwater. If you can back up Robert not being tactically minded then great but I just don't see the text telling us that in any clear terms. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Randyll won a single battle against Robert's much smaller force and suddenly everyone praises him to be one of the best.

 

Stannis on the other hand...

He shall defend his castle whatever the cost may be.

He shall fight on the beaches

he shall fight in the fields and in the streets

he shall fight in the hills

and he shall never surrender.

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

If you can back up Robert not being tactically minded then great but I just don't see the text telling us that in any clear terms. 

Griff almost killed him, he had to hide under skirts waiting for Ned to save him. He also lost to Mace Tyrell, which is just as hysterical.

The man was good with a hammer and a sack of wine but as a commander or king there was much to be desired

[Trigger Warning]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Griff almost killed him, he had to hide under skirts waiting for Ned to save him. He also lost to Mace Tyrell, which is just as hysterical.

The man was good with a hammer and a sack of wine but as a commander or king there was much to be desired

 

He withdrew from Randyll Tarly as Mace's larger force advanced, if he was an aggressive incapable commander he'd be more likely to commit to a battle he couldn't win you don't have to be Scipio Africanus to be a good commander. 

[Hugorfonics]

25 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

He withdrew from Randyll Tarly as Mace's larger force advanced, if he was an aggressive incapable commander he'd be more likely to commit to a battle he couldn't win you don't have to be Scipio Africanus to be a good commander. 

I would have gone with Zhugh Liang, but sure Roberts not them, not by a long shot.

You said the text doesn't paint Robert as an inept commander, I believe it does. Robert really only won two battles, one was against fractions of a marching army, the other The Trident. I'd giveore props to his arm then command it's not like he used stratgems to defeat Rheagar.

Eddard gave him his crown, which is one of the reasons he's so depressed over the reigning monarch. Stannis has no one to hand him a crown, he's the only army on the field, unlike Roberts, which is why I'd put Stannis' command over his brothers

 

[Trigger Warning]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I would have gone with Zhugh Liang, but sure Roberts not them, not by a long shot.

You said the text doesn't paint Robert as an inept commander, I believe it does. Robert really only won two battles, one was against fractions of a marching army, the other The Trident. I'd giveore props to his arm then command it's not like he used stratgems to defeat Rheagar.

Eddard gave him his crown, which is one of the reasons he's so depressed over the reigning monarch. Stannis has no one to hand him a crown, he's the only army on the field, unlike Roberts, which is why I'd put Stannis' command over his brothers

 

 

Does it really paint him as inept though? This is my argument, if anything like I said further up the thread the careers of basically all of these commanders are incredibly minor. Does withdrawing from that one battle really make him a  bad commander, you could use the same argument for such a small sample size not painting them as good either but I don't think there's much to go on to suggest that he's a bad commander.

Like you said Stannis is doing it on his own but this alone shouldn't be enough to overlook his campaign which has a more decisive and altogether more crippling defeat than Robert's, it seems unfair that Stannis should be given a free pass for the Blackwater whilst Robert's being admonished for simply withdrawing from a battle where the odds were stacked against him.

You used examples of a limited number of victories and that's perfectly fine to argue that he's not the best commander but I don't think there's much there to suggest he's on the other end of the spectrum and is inept, we simply don't know enough about Robert's rebellion I think. 

[hodorisfaclessman]

41 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

Does it really paint him as inept though? This is my argument, if anything like I said further up the thread the careers of basically all of these commanders are incredibly minor. Does withdrawing from that one battle really make him a  bad commander, you could use the same argument for such a small sample size not painting them as good either but I don't think there's much to go on to suggest that he's a bad commander.

Like you said Stannis is doing it on his own but this alone shouldn't be enough to overlook his campaign which has a more decisive and altogether more crippling defeat than Robert's, it seems unfair that Stannis should be given a free pass for the Blackwater whilst Robert's being admonished for simply withdrawing from a battle where the odds were stacked against him.

You used examples of a limited number of victories and that's perfectly fine to argue that he's not the best commander but I don't think there's much there to suggest he's on the other end of the spectrum and is inept, we simply don't know enough about Robert's rebellion I think. 

Roberts defeat came from agressively going ahead of his force and not properly scouting ahead similar to jamies blunder. Randyl knew the guy was unprofessional like that and vunerable and almost ended the rebellion right there

By contrast stannis loses at blackwater due to the speed of the reach(that tywin joins)  forces using rafts ,+ wildfire (which few knew about let alone knew massive quantities still existed ) etc etc .

 

Bottom line we also know from character interactions with them stannnis is the cold calculating one and robert isnt a deep thinker but more of a people person and was once upon a time an inspirational warrior who men would follow as he crashed through enemiy ranks. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

Does it really paint him as inept though? This is my argument, if anything like I said further up the thread the careers of basically all of these commanders are incredibly minor. Does withdrawing from that one battle really make him a  bad commander, you could use the same argument for such a small sample size not painting them as good either but I don't think there's much to go on to suggest that he's a bad commander.

If Roberts not a bad commander then Danys not a good one, they have commanded roughly the same amount of battles. We have to draw the line somewhere.

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

Like you said Stannis is doing it on his own but this alone shouldn't be enough to overlook his campaign which has a more decisive and altogether more crippling defeat than Robert's, it seems unfair that Stannis should be given a free pass for the Blackwater whilst Robert's being admonished for simply withdrawing from a battle where the odds were stacked against him.

 

True. He also would have been demolished by Roose if not for Jon's advice. Stannis isn't all that, but I still think fighting for his crown with no other armies in the field puts him past Robert.

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

You used examples of a limited number of victories and that's perfectly fine to argue that he's not the best commander but I don't think there's much there to suggest he's on the other end of the spectrum and is inept, we simply don't know enough about Robert's rebellion I think. 

When I think of an inept commander Mace Tyrell comes to mind, yet he kind of defeated both Robert and Stannis. It's hard to judge commanders by their victory or losses, but as Hodor just said Robert handled his victories recklessly and rellied on allies to turn his defeats into death.

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

What battle was that? Gulltown, where Jon Arryn massacared his constituents? Robert lost many battles, if it wasn't for Ned Jon and Hoster, it'd be a short war.

I don't think Stannis has enough soldiers to man Winterfell, though the shelter would be nice. Though I think it's a great idea to not take Winterfell until Tommen/Rooses army is gone, and perhaps Stannis saw that in his flames as well. 

The Bolton loyalists are griniding their teeth when they hear "Aryas" cries, but the heart tree is still there. Stannis would burn that tree like it threw 5$, which is the surest way of alienating all his northern soldiers. However letting the weirwood live would anger Rhollor and his southron soldiers.

Replaying to OP. I wanna say Tyrion or Jon because they're command was impeccable during ASOS, yet they haven't commanded since so 1 for 1 isn't great.

Dany and Robb, they're undefeated, young, famous and I believe the greatest commanders in asoiaf

He lost one battle and he won at odds worse than five to one.He has a better record than anyone currently alive IMHO.

“Let him write all the letters to the queen he likes. Lord Beric rides beneath the king’s own banner. If Lord Tywin attempts to interfere with the king’s justice, he will have Robert to answer to. The only thing His Grace enjoys more than hunting is making war on lords who defy him.”

[Hugorfonics]

20 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He lost one battle and he won at odds worse than five to one.

Ramsay only fought one battle and he also won five to one

 

"Ser Rodrik had you five-to-one."

"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face."