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Lord Varys

FIRE AND BLOOD Volume 1

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2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Well, LOL, I didn't do the math.

Rhaena's daughters could have fielded between them most of those claimants. Aerea could have applied herself, and after her her various sons and grandsons, each less suitable than the others (one too extravagant, one lame, one disfigured, one was small and stammered), and then her sister's sons, who believed that their cousins were all disqualified by their various setbacks, and these sons may have happened to be a pair of twins about whom no one was sure who was the firstborn. :D

Yeah, that is also possible but it would make the whole affair look pretty ridiculous if that's what they did. I'm also not sure Aerea and Rhalla (as far as I know 'Rhalla' is no typo but I thought that in the beginning, too) were still alive in 101 AC. They would have been around sixty, after all.

It may also be that one them is actually the mother of Corlys Velaryon, making it very unlikely that any other Velaryon descendants of hers challenged Laenor's claim.

Although the better candidate for Corlys' mother - if she was a Targaryen - would be Princess Rhaena. It is easily imaginable that Alyssa Velaryon decided to marry her oldest daughter off to one of her Velaryon nephews, possibly the son of this Daemon Velaryon we learn rebelled against Maegor (who may have been Alyssa's own younger brother). They could then have had Corlys in 53 AC.

In any case, if Corlys is descended from Rhaena/Aerea/Rhalla then we'll see most likely only two female Targaryen branches (and thus perhaps only two claimants from those lines) challenging the claims of Viserys and Laenor in 101 AC.

I don't think those claimants would be Aerea/Rhalla or Rhaena herself. It must be sons or even grandsons who ended up feeling resentment that they were cheated out of their legacy. Rhaena stood with her younger brother and mother in 48 AC, and I doubt Aerea and Rhalla themselves were opposing their royal uncle early on in the man's reign.

Later on, and perhaps pushed/urged on by their husbands the girls might have changed their mind. And their sons might have felt even more resentment. They never had a chance against as great a king as Jaehaerys I but it may have been enough to try to mess around with his heirs.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

If Aemon had a permanent mistress that he loved and with whom he had a family, it could explain for his strange lack of trueborn children save Rhaenys, but I'm not sure if Jaehaerys would have tolerated such behaviour in his heir. Idk, I feel that a bastard could have applied only if he had a good standing witin the family, but even so I don't find it very likely.

Jaehaerys-Alysanne had their problems, too. There is the First Quarrel which apparently also included a separation. In fact, I'd not be surprised if both Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had children with lovers/paramours of their own.

We don't know when exactly Jocelyn Baratheon died. Say, she died early on and Aemon fell in love/always some commoner or woman of low nobility he could not possibly marry. This could then explain why he didn't take another wife after Jocelyn's death. And I doubt that Jaehaerys I could have done anything about that after his son was a man grown, presumably residing on Dragonstone at the time.

But I'm not insisting on this whole bastard thing. I just find that somewhat more likely than all speculative (grand-)sons of Aerea/Rhalla/Rhaena presenting their claims or there being that many distant cousins. And especially a natural son of Prince Aemon as well as a natural son of the Old King or the Good Queen could have had a strong claim. Even more so if the mother/father of such a son would have been of prominent noble birth and/or a cousin of the royal family. Some sort of a not legitimized Daemon Blackfyre guy. Let Aemon have an affair with one of his younger unmarried sisters, or Jaehaerys being comforted by a sister of Corlys Velaryon.

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Honestly as someone who's not that into the Targs, I'm more looking forward to the snippets about the other characters around them, be nice if we got some fleshed out information about the court around the monarch.   I hope we get some good information about the wives of the kings and the roles they played.  I'd love some Jeyne Arryn information and the role she played on the regency council and some info about her life, she was the only LP on the council after all so she had more personal than anyone else away from the council (aside from hands).  Perhaps some new Dorne information about their relationship with the Iron throne through the years. 

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35 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

Honestly as someone who's not that into the Targs, I'm more looking forward to the snippets about the other characters around them, be nice if we got some fleshed out information about the court around the monarch.   I hope we get some good information about the wives of the kings and the roles they played.  I'd love some Jeyne Arryn information and the role she played on the regency council and some info about her life, she was the only LP on the council after all so she had more personal than anyone else away from the council (aside from hands).  Perhaps some new Dorne information about their relationship with the Iron throne through the years. 

Not sure how you can dislike the Targaryens as a group. Aren't they all individuals, different from each other? Dunk & Egg show that pretty well. Dany and Viserys have literally nothing to do with Baelor Breakspear, Egg, Maekar, etc.

There should be more about the various queens and there is also a pretty good chance that we see more of Jeyne Arryn during the Dance and the Regency. She most likely personally involved her in the Regency because she was kin to Aegon III. But you should also keep in mind that aside from the Starks all the other great houses suffered huge casualties - the Tullys, Lannisters, Baratheons, and Hightowers lost their leaders.

But - now that I think about it - it is strange that Kermit Tully didn't claim a seat on the regency council. The same goes for Benjicot Blackwood.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how you can dislike the Targaryens as a group. Aren't they all individuals, different from each other? Dunk & Egg show that pretty well. Dany and Viserys have literally nothing to do with Baelor Breakspear, Egg, Maekar, etc.

There should be more about the various queens and there is also a pretty good chance that we see more of Jeyne Arryn during the Dance and the Regency. She most likely personally involved her in the Regency because she was kin to Aegon III. But you should also keep in mind that aside from the Starks all the other great houses suffered huge casualties - the Tullys, Lannisters, Baratheons, and Hightowers lost their leaders.

But - now that I think about it - it is strange that Kermit Tully didn't claim a seat on the regency council. The same goes for Benjicot Blackwood.

I don't dislike them, I'm just not that into them.  In general we already know so much about them. I enjoyed the world book for all the info we got on regions and their history , I'm more interested in the pre-conquest times than post-conquest times.  But I don't dislike the Targs just generally find other families more my bag. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in some of the Targs just less so than other characters. 

I guess I'd just like to see more about the women in general especially ones with political power they were born to.  Jeyne Arryn is quite vaguely drawn so far, although considering that we don't have a name for the Princess of Dorne who was the mother to Doran, Elia and Oberyn, she's one up in that category.  Also I wonder what the other paramour families thought of the Arryn's getting a Targ marriage?   I wonder if there was a blood reason for the Aemma marriage, could she have had a Targ linked mother, like a Velaryon or Baratheon? 

The Regency of Aegon III is probably the part I'm most interested in and finding about how relations with Dorne were.  There seems to have always been tensions there and problems that trace their heritage to the pre-conquest times so it was never going to be a truly peaceful border. It'll be interesting to see how Jaehaerys dealt with that as you've talked about earlier in the thread especially as he seemed to have been liked/respected there. 

Morever be intrigued to know the various different stances of the Kings and their hands through that period, did the hands from the Reach/Stormlands want to push for war? Maybe did secretly agitate things so the King had to take a more forceful stance?  Did the Kings and the Prince/Princess meet?  Like Aegon went to Sunspear?  Did Deria ever come back to KL?

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i'm with @naseridrl on this one. I would be much more interested to learn more about what the world was like before Aegon's Conquest rather than after 

as it is, i hope we do at least learn a little bit about the history of westeros and essos from this book

perhaps there will be a short prelude in which we'll learn about the House Targaryen and their role in valyrian society prior to the doom, as well as find out more about how valyrian society functioned

also, the targaryens just arent my favorite house; i never particularly cared for them

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is also possible but it would make the whole affair look pretty ridiculous if that's what they did. I'm also not sure Aerea and Rhalla (as far as I know 'Rhalla' is no typo but I thought that in the beginning, too) were still alive in 101 AC. They would have been around sixty, after all.

It may also be that one them is actually the mother of Corlys Velaryon, making it very unlikely that any other Velaryon descendants of hers challenged Laenor's claim.

Although the better candidate for Corlys' mother - if she was a Targaryen - would be Princess Rhaena. It is easily imaginable that Alyssa Velaryon decided to marry her oldest daughter off to one of her Velaryon nephews, possibly the son of this Daemon Velaryon we learn rebelled against Maegor (who may have been Alyssa's own younger brother). They could then have had Corlys in 53 AC.

In any case, if Corlys is descended from Rhaena/Aerea/Rhalla then we'll see most likely only two female Targaryen branches (and thus perhaps only two claimants from those lines) challenging the claims of Viserys and Laenor in 101 AC.

I don't think those claimants would be Aerea/Rhalla or Rhaena herself. It must be sons or even grandsons who ended up feeling resentment that they were cheated out of their legacy. Rhaena stood with her younger brother and mother in 48 AC, and I doubt Aerea and Rhalla themselves were opposing their royal uncle early on in the man's reign.

Later on, and perhaps pushed/urged on by their husbands the girls might have changed their mind. And their sons might have felt even more resentment. They never had a chance against as great a king as Jaehaerys I but it may have been enough to try to mess around with his heirs.

Jaehaerys-Alysanne had their problems, too. There is the First Quarrel which apparently also included a separation. In fact, I'd not be surprised if both Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had children with lovers/paramours of their own.

We don't know when exactly Jocelyn Baratheon died. Say, she died early on and Aemon fell in love/always some commoner or woman of low nobility he could not possibly marry. This could then explain why he didn't take another wife after Jocelyn's death. And I doubt that Jaehaerys I could have done anything about that after his son was a man grown, presumably residing on Dragonstone at the time.

But I'm not insisting on this whole bastard thing. I just find that somewhat more likely than all speculative (grand-)sons of Aerea/Rhalla/Rhaena presenting their claims or there being that many distant cousins. And especially a natural son of Prince Aemon as well as a natural son of the Old King or the Good Queen could have had a strong claim. Even more so if the mother/father of such a son would have been of prominent noble birth and/or a cousin of the royal family. Some sort of a not legitimized Daemon Blackfyre guy. Let Aemon have an affair with one of his younger unmarried sisters, or Jaehaerys being comforted by a sister of Corlys Velaryon.

I was mostly joking with that scenario, but I think there might have been more than two claimants from this branch of family.

Regarding Jaehaerys's influence on Aemon, he could have simply threatened to have him disinherited unless he starts to live morally and tries for a trueborn son. It wouldn't be unreasonable, given the circumstances.

I'm pretty sure that had Alysanne any known bastards, history would not regard her as "Good Queen Alysanne". Women tend to be judged much harsher than men. If she had any illegitimate children, it's safe to say they passed for Jaehaerys'.

I like to think that Jaehaerys had more reason than to knock up a prominent noblewoman. It's not impossible, but in that case I think he would have arranged a marriage for her and the husband would have been bribed to claim the child as his own.

I suppose that Aemon and Baelon might have had a crop of acknowledged bastards, but imho there's little chance that the mother could have been any of their sisters. We've got just enough information on them to believe that none of them ever bore a bastard save Gael, who was way too young. (Or Saera, but she was far away from her family.) Ewww gawd, now you've given me the mental image of Gael being taken advantage of by her male relatives. Icky.

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1 hour ago, naseridrl said:

I don't dislike them, I'm just not that into them.  In general we already know so much about them. I enjoyed the world book for all the info we got on regions and their history , I'm more interested in the pre-conquest times than post-conquest times.  But I don't dislike the Targs just generally find other families more my bag. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in some of the Targs just less so than other characters. 

I guess I'd just like to see more about the women in general especially ones with political power they were born to.  Jeyne Arryn is quite vaguely drawn so far, although considering that we don't have a name for the Princess of Dorne who was the mother to Doran, Elia and Oberyn, she's one up in that category.  Also I wonder what the other paramour families thought of the Arryn's getting a Targ marriage?   I wonder if there was a blood reason for the Aemma marriage, could she have had a Targ linked mother, like a Velaryon or Baratheon?

Actually, we know that Aemma Arryn's mother was Daella Targaryen. Aemma and Viserys were first cousins.

 

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On 28.7.2017 at 2:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

It is really a pity that we know literally nothing about this Alyssa Targaryen. She has the potential of being one of the most interesting of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children.

Indeed. I hope that GRRM thinks to make his female characters as varied and interesting as his male ones and that some of them actually get to use their dragons for something substantial. I was flabbergasted when it turned out that Corlys's wife and daughter, their big powerful dragons notwithstanding, didn't participate in his and Daemon's Stepstones campaign. Not to mention that apparently they didn't use them to travel either until Daemon married Laena... Of course, we don't know if Alyssa Targaryen was even a dragon-rider.

 

On 28.7.2017 at 2:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

As to Princess Rhaenys - I expect we'll get the entire story, including the story of her parents and how she ended up with Corlys Velaryon instead of one of her Targaryen cousins. Somehow I think that her fiery nature might be part of that. I can see her wanting the best man there is, not this kind of soft man that Viserys Targaryen was. And Daemon may already have been too young for her.

 

 Let's not have the repetition of "female heir loses the throne because of unwise romantic choices" plot. We already have Rhaenyra covering that. And the affable, soft Viserys was an ideal mate for a somewhat clear-headed woman, who wanted to rule the realm.

I like your ideas about a possible war with Dorne early in J's reign. And let's not forget him negotiating judiciary powers away from the Faith. And visit in the North. And all the general"conciliating" that had to be done - the realm was very much changed during his reign.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Actually, we know that Aemma Arryn's mother was Daella Targaryen. Aemma and Viserys were first cousins.

 

Wow, totally forgot about that.  For some reason when I think of Daella,I think of the one who may or may not have been betrothed to Aegon V.  Thanks for the memory jog.

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Has GRRM said whether this book will include the Targaryens in Valyria? I want to know how Valeria compares to other places like kingslanding while I want to know more about the targaryen origin, valyrian steel and of course the dragons. Also will we have have POVs or will it be written third person or just a detailed description of places, people and events.

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1 hour ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

Has GRRM said whether this book will include the Targaryens in Valyria? I want to know how Valeria compares to other places like kingslanding while I want to know more about the targaryen origin, valyrian steel and of course the dragons. Also will we have have POVs or will it be written third person or just a detailed description of places, people and events.

Unfortunately nothing of the things you listed. First, it is a fake-hisory book ala World of Ice and Fire. Second, as I understood this GRRM post, the book beginns with the Conquest. 

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5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Regarding Jaehaerys's influence on Aemon, he could have simply threatened to have him disinherited unless he starts to live morally and tries for a trueborn son. It wouldn't be unreasonable, given the circumstances.

Not sure if that would have been proper. You have marry once at your father's command but not necessarily twice or three times. And it seems to be not uncommon that widowers (like Tytos Lannister) take mistresses and paramours rather than to remarry.

5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I'm pretty sure that had Alysanne any known bastards, history would not regard her as "Good Queen Alysanne". Women tend to be judged much harsher than men. If she had any illegitimate children, it's safe to say they passed for Jaehaerys'.

Could be. But we don't know all that much about her as of yet. She is the Good Queen despite the fact that she essentially divorced her brother-husband at least once.

5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I like to think that Jaehaerys had more reason than to knock up a prominent noblewoman. It's not impossible, but in that case I think he would have arranged a marriage for her and the husband would have been bribed to claim the child as his own.

If you give birth to the king's child you are not that fucked up. It can be an honor.

5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I suppose that Aemon and Baelon might have had a crop of acknowledged bastards, but imho there's little chance that the mother could have been any of their sisters. We've got just enough information on them to believe that none of them ever bore a bastard save Gael, who was way too young. (Or Saera, but she was far away from her family.) Ewww gawd, now you've given me the mental image of Gael being taken advantage of by her male relatives. Icky.

I thought about Maegelle. Septas can have sex, too. But I don't find that very likely, either. But a Targaryen bastard with a Velaryon, Hightower, Lannister, Tyrell, etc. mother could have been a powerful factor, especially if he had turned out to be as promising as Daemon Blackfyre.

4 hours ago, Maia said:

Indeed. I hope that GRRM thinks to make his female characters as varied and interesting as his male ones and that some of them actually get to use their dragons for something substantial. I was flabbergasted when it turned out that Corlys's wife and daughter, their big powerful dragons notwithstanding, didn't participate in his and Daemon's Stepstones campaign. Not to mention that apparently they didn't use them to travel either until Daemon married Laena... Of course, we don't know if Alyssa Targaryen was even a dragon-rider.

Yeah, that is somewhat odd. Especially Rhaenys' absence during the war on the Stepstones is strange. But perhaps it is going to turn out that she was down once or twice.

But both Rhaenys and Meleys seem to have fought in some campaign in the past. Rhaenys may have been part of her father's campaign on Tarth.

4 hours ago, Maia said:

 Let's not have the repetition of "female heir loses the throne because of unwise romantic choices" plot. We already have Rhaenyra covering that. And the affable, soft Viserys was an ideal mate for a somewhat clear-headed woman, who wanted to rule the realm.

Well, she would have picked Corlys before her father died, of course. And while Aemon was still the heir she was his heir, presumably. She didn't need Viserys to make that clear. That only became a thing when her father died and Jaehaerys I had to pick a new heir.

4 hours ago, Maia said:

I like your ideas about a possible war with Dorne early in J's reign. And let's not forget him negotiating judiciary powers away from the Faith. And visit in the North. And all the general"conciliating" that had to be done - the realm was very much changed during his reign.

Yeah, that's why I'd not mind to read a lot about diplomacy and legal reforms, and other 'boring things' in the section on him. It could finally paint a picture how life in the Seven Kingdoms actually is for the common people.

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On 28-7-2017 at 3:55 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but that totality is derived from the mentioning of the Hands we know, it is not a number that's explicitly confirmed. There could have been quite a few Hands between Robar and Barth. Or Robar remained Hand until 59 AC (I misremembered Barth as having died in 100 AC). That Barth became Hand in 59 AC is also conjecture at this point. We know he was supposedly Hand for a forty years but whether those are exactly forty years (or, say, 39 and a few months or 40 and half a year, or even more) is unclear.

 

I don't really get your point here since this is exactly what i said, there could be more between them or he was Hand for about 11 years. Seems to me you either did not read al of my post before responding or you simply misunderstood me.

But it does seem we agree on this point.

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37 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I don't really get your point here since this is exactly what i said, there could be more between them or he was Hand for about 11 years. Seems to me you either did not read al of my post before responding or you simply misunderstood me.

But it does seem we agree on this point.

I was just writing up stuff for my own benefit. I realize that you said more or less the same thing.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I was just writing up stuff for my own benefit. I realize that you said more or less the same thing.

In that case i misunderstood you ;)

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Its about the Targs of course i'm happy i want to know more about the Targs during the bleeding years. What happened to the other 4 dragons that came with Balerion (how did they die?). How did Gaemon the Glorious get his name i wish to know all of that those early targs especially who did the first night the most with their small folk. Jaehearys is definitely a must especially how his son aemon died didn't he have a dragon too. aegon I of course i want to know why he was so mysterious i want to hear more about his relationship with his sisters before they invaded. Bring it please 

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looking forward to the reigns of the kings  that we know little of. 

The dragon sons will cover Aenys and MAegor,

Rogue Prince and Patq covered Viserys and AegonII/Rhaenyra.

i doubt the book will give us much more that what we already know/will know of their respective reigns.

that leaves just Aegon I, Jaehaerys, and Aegon III. Mostly im interested about Aegon III and the fate of the last dragons. That should give us plenty to speculate on.

 

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I found this today on Tumblr. It's from his currect visit of Russia:

Quote

What inspired him to create Ramsay Snow? GRRM said, and I quote, that he needed something “to bite Theon in the ass”. Ramsay was created for Theon’s storyline, and he is first presented as a prisoner and a servant and then rises to a high position while Theon becomes his prisoner and servant. Then there was a question about House Bolton in general (that they are a very interesting and mysterious House), and whether we will know more about their history. GRRM answered that he does not plan to write a book about them but probably in Fire And Blood there will be something.

Hm... How do we get to the subject of House Bolton in FaB?

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On 2.8.2017 at 6:12 PM, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

i doubt the book will give us much more that what we already know/will know of their respective reigns.

It looks that way but if you are somewhat like me you really like any little tidbit of information. Ran/Linda did a great job summarizing the reign of Viserys I and the Dance (especially since they could focus more on the things that were not touched upon in TPatQ) and it is also true with the reign of Aenys I.

But most interesting details are gone from TWoIaF. The Vulture's Hunt is little more than a name in TWoIaF whereas Gyldayn makes it a small story.

And with the Dance there should be a lot more detail in FaB, too. I doubt George's accounts of the Erryk-Arryk battle and the death of Prince Maelor is a short and bloodless affair. Much to the contrary, actually.

18 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I found this today on Tumblr. It's from his currect visit of Russia:

Hm... How do we get to the subject of House Bolton in FaB?

I guess some might have showed their ugly heads throughout the first half of the Targaryen reign. I don't expect much on them, though. I guess a Bolton could have fought in the Dance, either with Lord Roderick's Winter Wolves or with Cregan's later host. Could even be that some second or third son of House Bolton ended up leading a group of Northern outlaws in the Riverlands and Crownlands. We do know that some of Cregan's men turned to banditry. 

And, of course, a detailed account of the reign of Jaehaerys I could give us also a detailed account of his royal progress up North where the king and the queen might have met some Boltons, too.

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