An Explanation for Dragon Riding, the Meaning of Azor Ahai, Lightbringer and Everything Else

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In light of the fact that Drogo's spirit actually literally hatches the dragon eggs as a sort of farewell gift for Daenerys and then rides off into the nightlands I'm pretty sure you entire case is built on sand. If George wanted Drogo to become Drogon in a literal or figurative sense the man's spirit would have have merged with the dragon. He would not have disappeared.

In addition, there is no reason to believe the dragonlords bonding with their dragons is sort of similar to the skinchanger thing. Nothing indicates that anything of a former rider remains in a dragon that's mounted by somebody else. Else Balerion most likely wouldn't have killed Quicksilver and Prince Aegon, nor would Vhagar and Caraxes have turned against each other.

This is highly speculative on your part. We don't actually know what hatched the eggs, and we certainly don't know that Drogo's spirit rode off into the night lands or if that is even a thing that happens ever.

[Lord Varys]

I think that's pretty good evidence that Drogo did not become a dragon:

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Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.
Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.
She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.
Only death can pay for life.

I mean, you can ignore that but I see no reason to do so.

George wanted us to give the impression that Drogo is still there and that gives Dany her dragons when he leaves for the afterlife on his smoky stallion. One can question whether Dany just has the illusion of that happening and it is sort of ambiguous up to a point, but this whole thing comes from George. There are no similar hints that Drogo's spirit partially transferred to Drogon or something of that sort.

[ravenous reader]

@chrisdaw  While I agree with you in principle that it ought to be possible to 'second-life' a dragon (you provided great symbolic evidence, btw.), according to the skinchanger analogy we're given it oughtn't to be possible for someone who has no fire immunity.  So far, the only character to whom we've been introduced who has fire immunity is Dany, so she alone ought to be able to tolerate fusion with a dragon's psyche, versus the other candidates, including Drogo, Bran, and Euron, for whom 'dwelling in fire' should be impossible. Not even all Targaryens have fire immunity, as we saw with Viserys and Aerion Brightflame, etc., so their genetic endowment alone should not be sufficient to assure a successful 'dragon-fusion.'  

Supporting my counter, there are several examples of skinchangers not being able to tolerate their skinchanging hosts burning, which has the unfortunate result of producing excruciating physical and mental pain for the skinchanger, akin to being literally burnt alive ('flesh made fire' is basically equivalent to 'fire made flesh' from the skinchanger's point of view), making it impossible for the skinchanger's spirit to remain in that body and inevitably evicting him.

The eagle burning -- basically a metaphor for a dragon in flight -- ejects Varamyr and drives him mad for a time:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon X

Then the skinchanger threw back his head and screamed.

The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the 'cat was screaming too . . . and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.

The scream brought Val out of the tent, white-faced. "What is it, what's happened?" Varamyr's wolves were fighting each other, and the shadowcat had raced off into the trees, but the man was still twisting on the ground. "What's wrong with him?" Val demanded, horrified. "Where's Mance?"

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"Your Lord Mormont trusted too easily. Else he would not have died as he did. But we were speaking of you. I have not forgotten that it was you who brought us this magic horn, and captured Mance Rayder's wife and son."

"Dalla died." Jon was saddened by that still. "Val is her sister. She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace. You had put the wildlings to flight, and the skinchanger Mance had left to guard his queen went mad when the eagle burned." Jon looked at Melisandre. "Some say that was your doing."

She smiled, her long copper hair tumbling across her face. "The Lord of Light has fiery talons, Jon Snow."

 

Burning the Storm's End godswood ejects the singers, who now homeless haunt Davos when he's stranded on the spears of the Merling King:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos I

Perhaps it was only wind blowing against the rock, or the sound of the sea on the shore, but for an instant Davos Seaworth heard her answer. "You called the fire," she whispered, her voice as faint as the sound of waves in a seashell, sad and soft. "You burned us . . . burned us . . . burrrrned usssssss."

"It was her!" Davos cried. "Mother, don't forsake us. It was her who burned you, the red woman, Melisandre, her!" He could see her; the heart-shaped face, the red eyes, the long coppery hair, her red gowns moving like flames as she walked, a swirl of silk and satin. She had come from Asshai in the east, she had come to Dragonstone and won Selsye and her queen's men for her alien god, and then the king, Stannis Baratheon himself. He had gone so far as to put the fiery heart on his banners, the fiery heart of R'hllor, Lord of Light and God of Flame and Shadow. At Melisandre's urging, he had dragged the Seven from their sept at Dragonstone and burned them before the castle gates, and later he had burned the godswood at Storm's End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

"It was her work," Davos said again, more weakly. Her work, and yours, onion knight. You rowed her into Storm's End in the black of night, so she might loose her shadow child. You are not guiltless, no. You rode beneath her banner and flew it from your mast. You watched the Seven burn at Dragonstone, and did nothing. She gave the Father's justice to the fire, and the Mother's mercy, and the wisdom of the Crone. Smith and Stranger, Maid and Warrior, she burnt them all to the glory of her cruel god, and you stood and held your tongue. Even when she killed old Maester Cressen, even then, you did nothing.

 

Basically, just as burning a weirwood evicts the soul of a skinchanger -- even a dead one -- as the Ghost of High Heart makes clear with how the resentful old gods have been 'enfeebled' and 'shrunken' by fire: 'nor do they love the flames...the old gods remember when the first men came with fire'; so likewise skinchanging a dragon, even beyond the death of the human body, should not be feasible for those without fire immunity:

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

 

Regarding your idea of Drogo's soul inhabiting Drogon, while I like the idea on a symbolic level, I don't see any indication of his soul lingering.  It's much more likely that her brother Viserys is in one of the dragons, based on how his voice comes back to haunt her with a vengeance, especially when she is stranded on the Dothraki Sea having what are arguably 'dragon dreams'.  Ask yourself, how come in comparison she hardly ever thinks of Drogo following his death, let alone receives something which might be construed as a telepathic communication from him.  It's as if Drogo has been extinguished, unlike Viserys.

The tip-off for me to suspect potential telepathy, akin to the 'silent shout' between Bran and Jon, is when the message is italicized and not put in quotation marks -- see the example of the dialogue with Viserys talking to her from beyond the grave, below.   I'm also partial to entertaining the irony of the guy who was always warning everyone else against 'waking the dragon,' in the end being the one responsible for having woken one!

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Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water. When she closed her eyes at last, Dany did not know whether she would be strong enough to open them again.

  She dreamt of her dead brother.

  Viserys looked just as he had the last time she’d seen him. His mouth was twisted in anguish, his hair was burnt, and his face was black and smoking where the molten gold had run down across his brow and cheeks and into his eyes.

  “You are dead,” Dany said.

  Murdered. Though his lips never moved, somehow she could hear his voice, whispering in her ear. You never mourned me, sister. It is hard to die unmourned.

  “I loved you once.”

  Once, he said, so bitterly it made her shudder. You were supposed to be my wife, to bear me children with silver hair and purple eyes, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. I took care of you. I taught you who you were. I fed you. I sold our mother’s crown to keep you fed.

  “You hurt me. You frightened me.”

  Only when you woke the dragon. I loved you.

  “You sold me. You betrayed me.”

  No. You were the betrayer. You turned against me, against your own blood. They cheated me. Your horsey husband and his stinking savages. They were cheats and liars. They promised me a golden crown and gave me this. He touched the molten gold that was creeping down his face, and smoke rose from his finger.

  “You could have had your crown,” Dany told him. “My sun-and-stars would have won it for you if only you had waited.”

  I waited long enough. I waited my whole life. I was their king, their rightful king. They laughed at me.

  “You should have stayed in Pentos with Magister Illyrio. Khal Drogo had to present me to the dosh khaleen, but you did not have to ride with us. That was your choice. Your mistake.”

  Do you want to wake the dragon, you stupid little whore? Drogo’s khalasar was mine. I bought them from him, a hundred thousand screamers. I paid for them with your maidenhead.

  “You never understood. Dothraki do not buy and sell. They give gifts and receive them. If you had waited …”

  I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon’s eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I’d had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words. Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

  When she woke, gasping, her thighs were slick with blood.
 

ADWD - Daenerys X

 

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

3) Arianne is almost certainly not going to marry Aegon.

About half of ADWD was dedicated to rearranging the board so that this would happen. It's flashing in neon.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Also Dany cannot bear children, and she knows that. Why would she even try? 

I will grant it's possible her and undead-Jon might procreate, but even that's a fan theory and a small chance at best. 

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Also Dany cannot bear children, and she knows that. Why would she even try? 

I will grant it's possible her and undead-Jon might procreate, but even that's a fan theory and a small chance at best. 

Danny is not barren. She thinks she's barren sure, motivation for rethinking that or giving it a go anyway is amply provided on the first page.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@chrisdaw  While I agree with you in principle that it ought to be possible to 'second-life' a dragon (you provided great symbolic evidence, btw.), according to the skinchanger analogy we're given it oughtn't to be possible for someone who has no fire immunity.

I generally agree, and most likely skin changers will not be able to skin change a dragon because it is fire made flesh and thus will consume their soul when they try. The trick is to be able to survive the fire, probably not forever but at least be consumed slowly. And I agree that is the real purpose of Varamyr getting microwaved, to show this.

The trick is in the blood of the dragon, and that's what the sacrifice is all about, and it's shown in the text repeatedly through symbolism, the moon kissing the sun is one example, but the most succinct is the Drogo part of the wake the dragon dream. Dany and Drogo have sex, spilling his seed within her speaks to conception, and it is in that instant the dragon appears.

Hence why Euron wants Dany, hence why he will turn to Arianne. But he won't need to survive the fire because when he second lifes the dragon it's not going to be a fire breathing dragon anymore. That's the whole point, shadow flame, and returning the dragon's fire is the central task, symbolised variously (which will come when I get home to edit the rest in) but most straight-forwardly by Lightbringer.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

About half of ADWD was dedicated to rearranging the board so that this would happen. It's flashing in neon.

I am well aware it is flashing in neon. But it is not going to happen. Doran never intended for Quentyn to marry Dany, or for Arianne to marry Viserys or Aegon. He has been lying and manipulating his children this whole time, and he is still lying to Arianne about his plans.

EDIT: For goodness sake, he sent DAEMON SAND with her, literally the man she lost her virginity to. And so far he has effectively been sabotaging any sort of marriage prospect with his opinions. Why would Daemon Sand be sent on a journey that is supposed to have a chance at success?

[Makk]

So far I have only read your first post and all the replies.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't see a single really compelling clue that points towards it. It's a theory consisting of a lot of interpretations of symbolism, I can accept most of them, but I don't find any particularly convincing. I also have some problems with a couple of assumptions. 

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Rhaego went into the dragon too, the same dragon. I'll elaborate on that later, but it's how non Valyrian/Targ blooded Drogo could get into what is otherwise exclusively the domain of the Valyrians.

I think this was pretty much disproved during the Dance of Dragons. Nettles came to ride Sheepsteeler. Yes, the Targs awarded her, and the other non-targs who was able to ride a dragon, the status of a Dragonseed. To me the explanation was very there to keep up the "Targaryens are special" myth. She came to ride the dragon because she brought it food every day and built up a bond. There was no blood magic, and even if she was a dragonseed, which of her relatives are you suggesting lived in the dragon?

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

This is how dragon riding was achieved, a blood bond formed with the dragon by a family member sacrificed to second life a dragon. It's a blood bond and so it persists through generations, the less diluted the bloodline the stronger the bond.

In the first case you suggest Drogo second-lifed Drogons egg. Are you suggesting this in the case of all dragons? There is a problem of timing, I highly, highly doubt that the dragons of the past were all hatched after a prominent Targ died. And I highly doubt they were killed in ritual sacrifice because nothing in the text about dragon eggs suggests that. The Targs wouldn't have just forgotten the rituals, they would be far too important for that. And it wasn't that the Targs stopped being able to ride dragons, dragons stopped hatching. If a second-lifed targ was required for a dragon to hatch, what are Rhaegal and Viserion doing?

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

About half of ADWD was dedicated to rearranging the board so that this would happen. It's flashing in neon.

Shouldn't this raise alarm bells with you? (In terms of suggesting Arianne will marry fAegon). GRRM likes to write about conflict of the human heart. Arriane wants to marry him (or anyone powerful and handsome). She doesn't want to be subservient or lower than her younger brother. But she has been sent to discover whether he is genuine or fake. I am convinced she will work out that he isn't who he is claiming and then will be forced to make the decision about that. What inner conflict could be greater for Arianne? I think she will pass her "test" and tell her father the truth. If Aegon marries any Dornish girl it will be Elia, who coincidentally shares the name of the woman Aegon thinks was his mother. If that happens I think Dorne will be split in two with the greater Martell half supporting Daenerys, and the rebel half supporting fAegon and Elia.

[chrisdaw]

2 hours ago, Makk said:

So far I have only read your first post and all the replies.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't see a single really compelling clue that points towards it. It's a theory consisting of a lot of interpretations of symbolism, I can accept most of them, but I don't find any particularly convincing. I also have some problems with a couple of assumptions. 

I think this was pretty much disproved during the Dance of Dragons. Nettles came to ride Sheepsteeler.

GRRM went out of his way to ensure that was no disproving of dragon blood being a requirement to ride a dragon in that same text just passages before the event. To state Nettles was an answer to the question is to simply deny half of what the author provided. The question remains, because that's how he wants it, he'll answer it definitively when he wants it answered, when it makes sense in the story proper to do so. And it won't be in a side story.

He's planted the whole Tyrion as a possible Targ bastard so that when Tyrion jumps on Viserion it won't even be answered then.

[Makk]

19 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

GRRM went out of his way to ensure that was no disproving of dragon blood being a requirement to ride a dragon in that same text just passages before the event. To state Nettles was an answer to the question is to simply deny half of what the author provided. The question remains, because that's how he wants it, he'll answer it definitively when he wants it answered, when it makes sense in the story proper to do so. And it won't be in a side story.

He's planted the whole Tyrion as a possible Targ bastard so that when Tyrion jumps on Viserion it won't even be answered then.

Even if all the dragonseeds were part targ (which I don't agree with), Sheepsteeler still doesn't fit with your theory of it being merged with a dead targ and choosing a Targaryen rider. Why would a Targaryen have chosen Nettles? And it was pretty clear that Nettles built up a bond by bringing it food.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

On 2017-07-23 at 8:20 PM, chrisdaw said:

Danny is not barren. She thinks she's barren sure, motivation for rethinking that or giving it a go anyway is amply provided on the first page.

The only evidence l see is that you are taking 'Azor Ahai reborn' totally literally. Which is clearly a mistake. Almost all of those prophecies have been fulfilled by her. Which means that SHE is AAR. 

But The George made her barren for a good reason. She had her children: they're dragons. SHE is the hero (or possibly villain), not a god damn vessel. Reducing her to a baby maker is cliche and super fuckin sexist.

That being said, the stuff about second-lifing dragons is great! Good research there. I genuinely hope that that stuff turns out to be true. 

[ravenous reader]

45 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

George made her barren for a good reason. She had her children: they're dragons. SHE is the hero (or possibly villain), not a god damn vessel. Reducing her to a baby maker is cliche and super fuckin sexist.

Actually, it's the other way around:  instead of being reduced to a vessel by her baby, her baby was instead reduced by her to a vessel, via whose death she was able to stir the dragons into life, achieving her AAR status!  

On 7/23/2017 at 11:20 PM, chrisdaw said:

I generally agree, and most likely skin changers will not be able to skin change a dragon because it is fire made flesh and thus will consume their soul when they try. The trick is to be able to survive the fire, probably not forever but at least be consumed slowly. And I agree that is the real purpose of Varamyr getting microwaved, to show this.

The trick is in the blood of the dragon, and that's what the sacrifice is all about, and it's shown in the text repeatedly through symbolism, the moon kissing the sun is one example, but the most succinct is the Drogo part of the wake the dragon dream. Dany and Drogo have sex, spilling his seed within her speaks to conception, and it is in that instant the dragon appears.

All that shows is that the product of the sex -- i.e. Rhaego's conception -- and, more importantly, the subsequent sacrifice of her child in the blood magic ritual ('she knew the price'), is the payment for waking the dragon.  How you get from that to Drogo's soul being in one of the dragons is a bit of a leap?!  If anything, Rhaego's soul might be in one of the dragons -- as it's likely he inherited from Dany's genetic component the necessary fire immunity to survive the transformation, as you've conceded is vital in your comment above.  

Notice, in the passage you referenced, Drogo's nor Viserys's nor Rhaegar's nor Jorah's sacrifice was sufficient to wake the dragon; it required Rhaego's sacrifice before the wording changes from 'don't want to wake the dragon' to 'want to wake the dragon.'  The change in wording to that of consent, shortly following the vision of her son's annihilation, is also a subtle indication of her acquiescence to the deal, namely giving up her son's life in exchange for power, affirming the truth of Mirri's words later to her that she 'knew the price' in advance.  Finally, the one whose soul definitively fuses with that of the dragon is Daenerys herself, not her son nor Drogo, as reflected in how when Daenerys ultimately takes flight, the wording changes from 'want to wake the dragon' to simply 'wake the dragon.'

 

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Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

 

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

 

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

 

" . . . don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

 

" . . . don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

 

" . . . don't want to wake the dragon . . . "

 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

" . . . don't want to wake the dragon . . . "

 

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

 

" . . . want to wake the dragon . . . "

 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

" . . . wake the dragon . . . "

 

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

" . . . the dragon . . . "

 

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

She woke to the taste of ashes.

 

"No," she moaned, "no, please."

 

"Khaleesi?" Jhiqui hovered over her, a frightened doe.

 

The tent was drenched in shadow, still and close. Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier, and Dany followed them with her eyes through the smoke hole above. Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. "Help me," she whispered, struggling to rise. "Bring me . . . " Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. "I want . . . "

 

"Yes, Khaleesi." Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed . . . something . . . someone . . . what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to . . . 

 

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. Ser Jorah Mormont lifted her in his arms and carried her back to her sleeping silks, while she struggled feebly against him. Over his shoulder she saw her three handmaids, Jhogo with his little wisp of mustache, and the flat broad face of Mirri Maz Duur. "I must," she tried to tell them, "I have to . . . "

 

" . . . sleep, Princess," Ser Jorah said.

 

"No," Dany said. "Please. Please."

 

"Yes." He covered her with silk, though she was burning. "Sleep and grow strong again, Khaleesi. Come back to us." And then Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter. Warm liquid ran down her chin. Somehow she swallowed. The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream. She floated, serene and at peace, on a black sea that knew no shore.

 

After a time—a night, a day, a year, she could not say—she woke again. The tent was dark, its silken walls flapping like wings when the wind gusted outside. This time Dany did not attempt to rise. "Irri," she called, "Jhiqui. Doreah." They were there at once. "My throat is dry," she said, "so dry," and they brought her water. It was warm and flat, yet Dany drank it eagerly, and sent Jhiqui for more. Irri dampened a soft cloth and stroked her brow. "I have been sick," Dany said. The Dothraki girl nodded. "How long?" The cloth was soothing, but Irri seemed so sad, it frightened her. "Long," she whispered. When Jhiqui returned with more water, Mirri Maz Duur came with her, eyes heavy from sleep. "Drink," she said, lifting Dany's head to the cup once more, but this time it was only wine. Sweet, sweet wine. Dany drank, and lay back, listening to the soft sound of her own breathing. She could feel the heaviness in her limbs, as sleep crept in to fill her up once more. "Bring me . . . " she murmured, her voice slurred and drowsy. "Bring . . . I want to hold . . . "

 

"Yes?" the maegi asked. "What is it you wish, Khaleesi?"

 

"Bring me . . . egg . . . dragon's egg . . . please . . . " Her lashes turned to lead, and she was too weary to hold them up.

 

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

 

Dany touched her brow. Under the film of sweat, her skin was cool to the touch, her fever gone. She made herself sit. There was a moment of dizziness, and the deep ache between her thighs. Yet she felt strong. Her maids came running at the sound of her voice. "Water," she told them, "a flagon of water, cold as you can find it. And fruit, I think. Dates."

 

"As you say, Khaleesi."

 

"I want Ser Jorah," she said, standing. Jhiqui brought a sandsilk robe and draped it over her shoulders. "And a warm bath, and Mirri Maz Duur, and . . . " Memory came back to her all at once, and she faltered. "Khal Drogo," she forced herself to say, watching their faces with dread. "Is he&mdash?"

 

"The khal lives," Irri answered quietly . . . yet Dany saw a darkness in her eyes when she said the words, and no sooner had she spoken than she rushed away to fetch water.

 

She turned to Doreah. "Tell me."

 

"I . . . I shall bring Ser Jorah," the Lysene girl said, bowing her head and fleeing the tent.

 

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. "What is it? I must know. Drogo . . . and my child." Why had she not remembered the child until now? "My son . . . Rhaego . . . where is he? I want him."

 

Her handmaid lowered her eyes. "The boy . . . he did not live, Khaleesi." Her voice was a frightened whisper.

 

Dany released her wrist. My son is dead, she thought as Jhiqui left the tent. She had known somehow. She had known since she woke the first time to Jhiqui's tears. No, she had known before she woke. Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame.

 

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet . . . she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

 

Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon's eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. "Ser Jorah, come here," she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. "What do you feel?"

 

"Shell, hard as rock." The knight was wary. "Scales."

 

"Heat?"

 

"No. Cold stone." He took his hand away. "Princess, are you well? Should you be up, weak as you are?"

 

"Weak? I am strong, Jorah." To please him, she reclined on a pile of cushions. "Tell me how my child died."

 

"He never lived, my princess. The women say . . . " He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

 

"Tell me. Tell me what the women say."

 

He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. "They say the child was . . . "

 

She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.

 

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

 

Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

 

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

 

"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows. "

 

"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

 

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. "The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah," she told him. The knight made no reply. Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

 

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

 

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life."

 

Quote

Hence why Euron wants Dany, hence why he will turn to Arianne. But he won't need to survive the fire because when he second lifes the dragon it's not going to be a fire breathing dragon anymore. That's the whole point, shadow flame, and returning the dragon's fire is the central task, symbolised variously (which will come when I get home to edit the rest in) but most straight-forwardly by Lightbringer.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. 'Returning the dragon's fire'?  'Shadow flame'?  Perhaps you could clarify.

 

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

Even if all the dragonseeds were part targ (which I don't agree with), Sheepsteeler still doesn't fit with your theory of it being merged with a dead targ and choosing a Targaryen rider. Why would a Targaryen have chosen Nettles? And it was pretty clear that Nettles built up a bond by bringing it food.

Because she shares their bond and thus the blood bond. It still has to decide if it likes her or not or if it's going to eat her.

It's a simple theory that is not mine, to which no-one can really claim ownership because it is just naturally occurring from the information we are provided. A Targaryen dragon may or may not allow a person with Targaryen lineage to ride it. But it will never allow a person with no Targaryen lineage to ride it. It is a minimal requirement.

What I am offering is an explanation for why this blood bond exists. Someone second lifed a dragon and the dragon became less hostile to people with the same blood as that person. So much so that some were able to ride the dragon. And the connection persisted down generations spreading from those with common blood.

1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

But The George made her barren for a good reason. She had her children: they're dragons. SHE is the hero (or possibly villain), not a god damn vessel. Reducing her to a baby maker is cliche and super fuckin sexist.

Character fanning is the beginning of going wrong.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

23 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Character fanning is the beginning of going wrong

I'm not a huge Dany fan. I like her OK, and hope that her character arc gets better. 

But I really object to the kind of attitude that makes her a vessel. That's some retrograde shit. The story is not about her baby-maker. George put that hackneyed garbage to bed in the first book. Steering away from that -- yea, inverting it -- is precisely what makes the series worth reading.

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I'm not a huge Dany fan. I like her OK, and hope that her character arc gets better. 

But I really object to the kind of attitude that makes her a vessel. That's some retrograde shit. The story is not about her baby-maker. George put that hackneyed garbage to bed in the first book. Steering away from that -- yea, inverting it -- is precisely what makes the series worth reading.

You jumped the gun on me because you're thinking in terms of what you want for Dany. Or maybe I'm being unfair. Anyway the rest of it there now and will be more to your liking.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You jumped the gun on me because you're thinking in terms of what you want for Dany. Or maybe I'm being unfair. Anyway the rest of it there now and will be more to your liking.

I am thinking in those terms. And so are you! Why else would you choose to frame her plot all around getting knocked up?

The text in its literal sense shuts the door on all that, explicitly and with great intention. Your story labours hard to make it about babies again. 

Because I have had enough of sexist fantasy tropes, I CHOOSE to read the story The George laid out explicitly, which flips these tropes. You, probably not realising it, have tried to hammer the story back into those tropes. You CHOOSE to read it (tortuously) as a narrative about getting knocked up with The Chosen One. 

That ship sailed in AGOT. He flipped it. It's done. No competent writer would go back. 

That being said, I am all in favour of a lot of the other elements you've laid out here. I think that second lifing dragons will become very central to the Targ stuff, and possibly also Euron. I just see the mechanism differently.

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I am thinking in those terms. And so are you! Why else would you choose to frame her plot all around getting knocked up?

The only framing of mine on the first page is chronological. I've pulled out that which relates to the fantastical and dragon side of the story and put it in order, that's all.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

LMAO

And interpreted it. According to your thoughts, background, desires, and so on. 

Right?

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

LMAO

And interpreted it. According to your thoughts, background, desires, and so on. 

Right?

[chrisdaw]

18 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

LMAO

And interpreted it. According to your thoughts, background, desires, and so on. 

Right?

No. What I want has no part in it. It is what it is. That is half the problem, people see things through the prism that they want rather than what the text provides.

What I want would involve a lot more Stannis, whereas the front page says he is going to take an evil path that Jon must reject to save the world.

And there's nothing reductive about Dany's role or ending. You're taking a small part of her story and reacting to it on the basis that you don't want it to happen.