An Explanation for Dragon Riding, the Meaning of Azor Ahai, Lightbringer and Everything Else

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No. What I want has no part in it. It is what it is. That is half the problem, people see things through the prism that they want rather than what the text provides.

You believe you didn't do that?

LMAO!!! Holy shit! Seriously?! 

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

This is by far the most intense and well thought out theory I've ever read regarding the outcome of the story. It feels almost more like reading someone's thesis than a mere 'prediction' of what will happen.

I have to admit, though, I did not read the whole thing. I got about as far as where you mentioned that Daenerys would glamour as Ygritte and seduce Jon against the wall. At the point it began to feel more as if I was reading the spoilers for the coming books as opposed to reading someone else's theory.

It's been a while since I read many fan theories, but with the start of Game of Thrones season 7, I suppose my interest in the whole thing spiked again (because GRR Martin certainly isn't doing his bit to spark our interest!).

'R+L=J' is probably the most well known fan theory in the Ice and Fire world. I remember a friend telling me about it as I was reading ASoS. Part of me was bothered he told me, but another part was glad as I was able to pay more attention to anything I saw as a clue that it was true. When I re-read the books, knowing about such theories it was fun to stumble across something I saw as a clue and be like 'YESSS! R+L DOES = J!'.

Obviously it has since been revealed via Game of Thrones season 6 that the theory is true. While the show and books are drifting in different directions, I do believe this will be one thing the books and the show will share. But even without the show revealing it, there was no way I believed anything other than Jon being resurrected and Bran being the first POV character to learn the truth regarding Jon's true parents. Even though 'R+L=J' was just a theory, no part of me didn't expect it to come to pass.

One other theory is of course the 'Tyrion Targayen' theory. When I read it, my feelings were different to 'R+L=J'. 'Tyrion Targaryen' makes sense, but in my eyes is not as 'nailed on' and likely to be true. However, it's one of those theories I can't help but hope BE true. And if it's not, I know part of me will be disappointed.

All I'm saying may seem irrelevant to your post but your post got me thinking for different reasons than what you intended and what has been discussed. As I said, never before have I read such an in depth and concise theory. You haven't just come up with a few ideas and spat them out. You have looked at every line and every word written within this series and taken it as a clue. You have seen relevance in sentences most would skim over. To me, this feels almost like your goal is to work out everything that is going to happen.

Now I doubt even you expect everything you predict to be one hundred percent true, but you've written it so you must believe it to some extent. I just can't help but wonder what will happen when WoW finally does come out and you start reading it. Will you be reading it like me? Someone that has a few ideas what may happen but in reality is prepared to be totally wrong. Or will you be reading it waiting to tick off everything that you got right in your prediction?

We all have a curiosity imbedded in us - why, that's what led me here in the first place. But the feeling that I was believing and seeing the sense in what you predicted is also what stopped me reading your theories in full. I want to be surprised when I read WoW; I want to feel like I am seeing things unfold in front of me as they happen.

Part of the issue a lot of people have at the moment is Game of Thrones being 'ahead' of the books, but with the way the new season is going, the absence of characters like Aegon and Stannis etc, it's more like the show is doing its own thing and using the books as a helping hand here and there.

What happens if everything you predict is wrong? I'm not suggesting it is by any means, as I agree with a lot of what you say. But with the amount of work and effort you have put into this, I can't help but feel that you would be disappointed if you aren't right, which would take away from your enjoyment of a series of books you clearly love.

I suppose my reply is a bit off topic, but I am just interested to hear what you have to say.

[chrisdaw]

I will certainly read TWOW with excitement to see if I am right, in addition to the regular excitement of it being new text in my favourite fantasy series. If I am wrong, but what happens is better, arcs and themes more realised, events more epic, then I will be happy rather than disappointed. If I'm right I'll be excited to see how it is brought to fruition in the hundreds of pages compared to the outline I think and have written in.

Ultimately I have blind faith in GRRM, I don't think in terms of some people here, that they wish GRRM did this instead, or didn't do this, or think this part was unnecessary. I believe everything he has provided in the text he's done so for a purpose that is and will be to my mind worthwhile, and whether right or wrong I don't consider it a possibility I will be disappointed.

Unless he gets tired and takes up golf and just pumps out any old ending like the show, though everything suggests he's not going to do that.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Honestly i didn´t finish reading it. You lost me at some point with Euron bedding Arianne. Ill have to give it another try during the weakend.

That said, grand theories that manage to explain and interconect some of the biggest mysteries in the books always deserve praise, and you certainly gave it a lot of effort.

Euron attempting godhood by second life in a dragon is a fascinating concept trully.

Also, you got me hooked at the start with the dragon second life. We have been speculating for years the mysteries of dragonrinding and how similar they are with skinchanging. How the Geodawnian, or ancient asshai, or protovalyrians (call them as you wish) who were the original creators of dragons,  first came to westeros seeking the secrets of greenmagic seems like a clue .

The dragon second life is just taking skinchanging a step further

Im surprised you missed it, but there are a couple of very suspicious examples:

Quote

 

Helaena’s end had been mercifully swift; one of the spikes took her through the throat and she died without a sound. At the moment of her death, across the city atop the Hill of Rhaenys, her dragon Dreamfyre rose suddenly with a roar that shook the Dragonpit, snapping two of the chains that bound her.

 

if Helaena was murder it would make sense.

 

Quote

 

Vermithor’s size and weight were too much for Seasmoke to contend with, Lord Blackwood said many years later, and he would surely have torn the silver-grey dragon to pieces … if Tessarion had not fallen from the sky at that very moment to join the fight.

Who can know the heart of a dragon? Was it simple bloodlust that drove the Blue Queen to attack? Did the she-dragon come to help one of the combatants? If so, which? Some will claim that the bond between a dragon and dragonrider runs so deep that the beast shares his master’s loves and hates. But who was the ally here, and who the enemy? Does a riderless dragon know friend from foe?

(...)

One remained: Silverwing, Good Queen Alysanne’s mount in days of old, had taken to the sky as the carnage began, circling the battlefield for hours, soaring on the hot winds rising from the fires below. Only after dark did she descend, to land beside her slain cousins. Later, singers would tell of how she thrice lifted Vermithor’s wing with her nose, as if to make him fly again, but this is most like a fable.

 

 

Tessarion (daeron) joining Seasmoke (addam) against the vermithor (Hugh Hammer)

and Silverwing (Good Queen Alysanne) grieving for Vermithor (Jaehaerys the wise) seems like second life kind of behavior.

 

[Makk]

42 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Helaena’s end had been mercifully swift; one of the spikes took her through the throat and she died without a sound. At the moment of her death, across the city atop the Hill of Rhaenys, her dragon Dreamfyre rose suddenly with a roar that shook the Dragonpit, snapping two of the chains that bound her.

Doesn't this suggest that it is a "normal" warg bond though? Helaena died and became one with Dreamfyre on her death. I was under the impression that the premise of this thread is that a Dragon was already second lifed by a Targ/Valyrian which allowed a living Targ to ride it?

[chrisdaw]

2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Honestly i didn´t finish reading it. You lost me at some point with Euron bedding Arianne. Ill have to give it another try during the weakend.

That said, grand theories that manage to explain and interconect some of the biggest mysteries in the books always deserve praise, and you certainly gave it a lot of effort.

Euron attempting godhood by second life in a dragon is a fascinating concept trully.

Also, you got me hooked at the start with the dragon second life. We have been speculating for years the mysteries of dragonrinding and how similar they are with skinchanging. How the Geodawnian, or ancient asshai, or protovalyrians (call them as you wish) who were the original creators of dragons,  first came to westeros seeking the secrets of greenmagic seems like a clue .

The dragon second life is just taking skinchanging a step further

Im surprised you missed it, but there are a couple of very suspicious examples:

if Helaena was murder it would make sense.

 

 

Tessarion (daeron) joining Seasmoke (addam) against the vermithor (Hugh Hammer)

and Silverwing (Good Queen Alysanne) grieving for Vermithor (Jaehaerys the wise) seems like second life kind of behavior.

 

Yeah the Helaena one is good, I'm just reluctant to look deep down that path because more than one person is second lifing these dragons so it's going to get fairly grey. But Helaena particularly was worth going into given her suicide by jumping from a tower (symbolically second lifing as per Euron and elsewhere) mixed in with her dragon's response. Also she's in the position that I'm putting Arianne in, grief stricken queen removed from her position and kept as highborn prisoner in KL, locked in a tower as Arianne was too. And not all in a row, but there is the death of a child as keeping to the theme.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

Doesn't this suggest that it is a "normal" warg bond though? Helaena died and became one with Dreamfyre on her death. I was under the impression that the premise of this thread is that a Dragon was already second lifed by a Targ/Valyrian which allowed a living Targ to ride it?

The dragon line and human line are blood bonded by a second lifer, and a dragon may be less hostile to a human of with which they share the same blood to an extent that may allow the human to ride them. Up to the dragon. I don't think every dragon ever ridden necessarily had a second lifer inside of them when they were claimed, just that they descended from one which did, and their rider shares the same blood as the second lifer.

[chrisdaw]

Edited in the ice dragon for those few following.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Still surprised that this doesn't have a lot more comments.

[a black swan]

On 9/14/2017 at 0:26 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

Still surprised that this doesn't have a lot more comments.

I'm surprised too. Deserves way more attention and consideration. The theory is spectacular! Still waiting to read any new updates? The whole bit about the Valyrians second-lifing dragons.  Just amazing!

 

"What is actually happening in Dany's wake the dragon dream is she too is on the verge of second lifing a dragon. The ghosts who are cheering her on are Targaryen's of the past who had second lifed a dragon, she is passing in their footsteps. But they have come and gone, that's why they're ghosts, why their raiments have faded, and why their swords are pale fire. Their swords were once red, they were once the dragon's fire, but their time has come and passed, their fires dwindled. That's what Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes represents, the dragon's fire." -Chrisdaw

 

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

44 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

I'm surprised too. Deserves way more attention and consideration. The theory is spectacular! Still waiting to read any new updates? The whole bit about the Valyrians second-lifing dragons.  Just amazing!

Perhaps the issue is that there is a case of 'too much information', which can put many people off. I've come back and looked at this piece a couple of times, and without doubt, this is the theory thread I have seen on this site with the most compelling of hypotheses.

I would love to comment on this more but a ) I don't know where to start, and b ) I really feel I'd have no leg to stand on when it comes to debating what I think about the story compared to Chris, who has clearly invested a lot more time into it than I have.

There are many members I see floating through the site that I look out for when they comment on something, as usually, they have a pretty good opinion. I'd love it if some of those guys, that have a lot more knowledge than I do, got involved and I could read a proper debate on this. Maybe then I could throw in a comment or two.

Lord Varys is one, and I saw he had commented a couple of times on this but withdrew from the conversation. There are many more ASOIAF brainiacs on here that I'd love to see thrash out a debate on this, but so far, none have been forthcoming.

My comment that you quoted was my attempt to bump this and see if anyone refreshing the activity feed would bite and a proper debate would start. Only took a month for someone to respond to! Lol.