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Spoiler: Dany's Small Council

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I would tend to think that too (since it matches the facts as I see them much better), but I haven't watched the actual quote, and I have no idea in what context it was given.

That's deviating a bit from the topic of Dany's small council though, at least until such a time as Jon goes and joins it, which everyone (understandably) seems to expect will happen. But hey, she's already adding the wonderful Melisandre to the mix, so between her and the Queen of Thorns now hell-bent on revenge at any cost, there'll be no shortage of fire-and-death loving people around her.

Well melisandre seems a bit mellow compared to how she was. She is clearly less cocky about her ability to read prophecy. I admit I actually liked melisandre in that scene.

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2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Well melisandre seems a bit mellow compared to how she was. She is clearly less cocky about her ability to read prophecy. I admit I actually liked melisandre in that scene.

Aye, I agree, let's see if it lasts.

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I think too much thought was put into Olenna's "wise" advice to Dany and Dany was right when she called her out for not aligning herself with Dany for her love of her. Olenna doesn't care for Dany or who sits on the iron throne. She lost her entire family and what she really wants is for Cersei to be dead. That's what Varys promised her and what she joined for- "justice, vengeance, fire and blood" (sorry if that's not the precise quote). Olenna is an experienced player and knows exactly what to say and do to get what she wants - which she did.

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11 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Well their bodies still work like most people's given that they bleed and breath and everything. That said I think GRRM was talking about the books and not the show. In the books beric is alot more extreme in his differences then in the show.

Well, according to what I think someone posted about GRRM comments on Beric, his heart does not beat and blood does not run through ihs body.  It does seem that Jon was gasping for air at the Battle of the Bastards, though.

As you basically say, though, books and show are not the same.

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4 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, according to what I think someone posted about GRRM comments on Beric, his heart does not beat and blood does not run through ihs body.  It does seem that Jon was gasping for air at the Battle of the Bastards, though.

As you basically say, though, books and show are not the same.

yeah but remember when the hound almost spilt beric in half? blood gushed out like a tarantino movie

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51 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

yeah but remember when the hound almost spilt beric in half? blood gushed out like a tarantino movie

Himm.  Interesting point.

Well, I guess then, as you say, books and show seem to be different.

And in any event, as I mentioned above, the definition of "wight" seems to be really broad anyway.  Like I said, when I looked it up in a dictionary, it said a wight was an unfortunate living being, especially a human being.  So, maybe GRRM has some explaining to do about why he is using the word "wight" the way he is in the first place, I guess, cuz that makes no sense, near as I can tell.

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47 minutes ago, Cron said:

Himm.  Interesting point.

Well, I guess then, as you say, books and show seem to be different.

And in any event, as I mentioned above, the definition of "wight" seems to be really broad anyway.  Like I said, when I looked it up in a dictionary, it said a wight was an unfortunate living being, especially a human being.  So, maybe GRRM has some explaining to do about why he is using the word "wight" the way he is in the first place, I guess, cuz that makes no sense, near as I can tell.

Ill try my best to explain why he uses wight for both.

He is using the term wight in reference to that both have been resurrected and are being controlled whether or not we want to believe it,its happening. They all have a path they need to take. Jon and Beric are wights resurrected by fire. The term 'wight' is used for the resurrected. They behaviour is different but they are both still wights. 

Referencing what you said 'a wight was an unfortunate living being' Jon and Beric could unfortunately be part of the Lord of Lights plan. 

Edited by Samwell_Tarly

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6 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Ill try my best to explain why he uses wight for both.

He is using the term wight in reference to that both have been resurrected and are being controlled whether or not we want to believe it,its happening. They all have a path they need to take. Jon and Beric are wights resurrected by fire. The term 'wight' is used for the resurrected. They behaviour is different but they are both still wights. 

Referencing what you said 'a wight was an unfortunate living being' Jon and Beric could unfortunately be part of the Lord of Lights plan. 

Well, this is good conversation, but I've already acknowledged that, yeah, apparently GRRM has his own definition of the word "wight," and as near as I can tell it includes anyone who has been resurrected and whose body no longer functions like a normal human being.

NONE of which is contained in, so far as I can tell, a more classical definition of the term "wight."

Is Theon unfortunate?  Yes.  Is he a living being?  Yes.  Is Theon therefore a "wight"?  I dunno, you tell me.  I guess maybe he is.  I guess maybe if we use a broad enough definition,EVERYONE is a wight, in Game of Thrones.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that Beric and Jon no longer have free will, and are being controlled like puppets by R'hllor, and I will be VERY surprised if such a thing is ever expressly revealed, in books or show.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though.

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7 minutes ago, Cron said:

Well, this is good conversation, but I've already acknowledged that, yeah, apparently GRRM has his own definition of the word "wight," and as near as I can tell it includes anyone who has been resurrected and whose body no longer functions like a normal human being.

NONE of which is contained in, so far as I can tell, a more classical definition of the term "wight."

Is Theon unfortunate?  Yes.  Is he a living being?  Yes.  Is Theon therefore a "wight"?  I dunno, you tell me.  I guess maybe he is.  I guess maybe if we use a broad enough definition,EVERYONE is a wight, in Game of Thrones.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that Beric and Jon no longer have free will, and are being controlled like puppets by R'hllor, and I will be VERY surprised if such a thing is ever expressly revealed, in books or show.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though.

To assume Theon is a wight and everyone is stupid, you just said above that you understood what i said but clearly not. Its the resurrected part that makes them wights, not his bad luck and being human that comes after the ressurection. Theon has not been resurrected well to my knowledge unless Ive missed something. There is obviously a clear path that they need to take that they are being guided into, Im not saying they dont have free will but are being directed by Rhollor. 

Edited by Samwell_Tarly

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33 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

 

To assume Theon is a wight and everyone is stupid, you just said above that you understood what i said but clearly not. Its the resurrected part that makes them wights, not his bad luck and being human that comes after the ressurection. Theon has not been resurrected well to my knowledge unless Ive missed something. There is obviously a clear path that they need to take that they are being guided into, Im not saying they dont have free will but are being directed by Rhollor. 

My point is that it all depends on the definition of "wight" that we are using.

If the definition is broad enough, EVERYONE is arguably a "wight."

In ASOIAF, though, GRRM makes the rules, and GRRM defines the terms, and under GRRM's apparent definition, we have Ice Wights and Fire Wights, with dramatic differences between them

And I acknowledge that.  If GRRM says that in the world of ASOIAF Jon and Beric are Fire Wights, then fine, they are Fire Wights..

But I see NO evidence that Jon and Beric lack free will, and I will be VERY surprised if it is ever revealed that they are some kind of puppets lacking free will.

Edited by Cron

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8 minutes ago, Cron said:

My point is that it all depends on the definition of "wight" that we are using.

You provided the definition thats the one we have used......

8 minutes ago, Cron said:

If the definition is broad enough, EVERYONE is arguably a "wight."

How??? how can everyone be a wight, ''everyone'' are not resurrected.

8 minutes ago, Cron said:

In ASOIAF, though, GRRM makes the rules, and GRRM defines the terms, and under GRRM's apparent definition, we have Ice Wights and Fire Wights, with dramatic differences between them

Correct

8 minutes ago, Cron said:

And I acknowledge that.  If GRRM says that in the world of ASOIAF Jon and Beric are Fire Wights, then fine, they are Fire Wights..

But I see NO evidence that Jon and Beric lack free will, and I will be VERY surprised if it is ever revealed that they are some kind of puppets lacking free will.

Nowhere has been mentioned that Jon and Beric lack free will but ultimately there is a path to follow, a role to play.

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On 7/30/2017 at 6:51 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

You provided the definition thats the one we have used......

Um, I have mentioned several possible definitions of a "wight."  GRRM's apparent definition (as near as I can tell) seems to be VERY different from the dictionary definitions I have found.

On 7/30/2017 at 6:51 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

How??? how can everyone be a wight, ''everyone'' are not resurrected.

The dictionary definitions that I found, as I recall, just basically said a "wight" is an unfortunate living being, especially a human being, and said nothing about resurrection.  See?  That is extremely broad and vague.  Under that definition, pretty much everyone in ASOIAF is a wight, I would say.

Again, it all just depends on what definition we are using.

By all means, look up definitions of the word "wight," and let me know what you find.  I would be very interested to know what you find.

On 7/30/2017 at 6:51 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

Correct

Nowhere has been mentioned that Jon and Beric lack free will but ultimately there is a path to follow, a role to play.

As I recall, there was discussion in this thread to the basic effect of whether Jon and Beric have been resurrected to serve the Lord of Light and are bound to do so, as the Ice Wights seem to be bound to serve the forces of cold and death.  Thus arose, in my opinion, the question of free will.

Further, in my opinion, there DOES seem to be a major distinction between the Ice Wights and Jon and Beric on these grounds.  The Ice Wights seem to be single-minded zombies, lacking free will, as near as I can tell. Jon and Beric are very dissimilar to that. I think..

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4 minutes ago, Cron said:

Um, I have mentioned several possible definitions of a "wight."  GRRM's apparent definition (as near as I can tell) seems to be VERY different from the dictionary definitions I have found.

The dictionary definitions that I found, as I recall, just basically said a "wight" is an unfortunate living being, especially a human being, and said nothing about resurrection.  See?  That is extremely broad and vague.  Under that definition, pretty much everyone in ASOIAF is a wight, I would say.

Again, it all just depends on what definition we are using.

By all means, look up definitions of the word "wight," and let me know what you find.  I would be very interested to know what you find.

As I recall, there was discussion in this thread to the basic effect of whether Jon and Beric have been resurrected to serve the Lord of Light and are bound to do so, as the Ice Wights seem to be bound to serve the forces of cold and death.  Thus arose, in my opinion, the question of free will.

Further, in my opinion, there DOES seem to be a major distinction between the Ice Wights and Jon and Beric on these grounds.  The Ice Wights seem to be single-minded zombies, lacking free will, as near as I can tell. Jon and Beric are very dissimilar to that. I think..

Dont really think this arguement is going to go anywhere, end of the day 

''he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing''

regardless on condition, physical appearance, mental state, behaviour. A wight is clearly resurrected.

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23 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Dont really think this arguement is going to go anywhere, end of the day 

''he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing''

regardless on condition, physical appearance, mental state, behaviour. A wight is clearly resurrected.

My friend, I don't think we're arguing at all.

I have already stipulated that for purposes of ASOIAF, GRRM's word is dispositive.  If GRRM says Beric is a wight in the world of ASOIAF, then he's a wight.  I've already stipulated to that, a few times.

Having said that, other definitions of "wight" exist, that (a) do not mention resurrection at all, and (b) are extremely broad and vague.

Far as I'm concerned, we've just been having an exchange of ideas, not arguing.

So, anyway, how'd you like Episode 703?

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