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Spoiler: Dany's Small Council

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11 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

But that "basically" does not have much meaning behind it. He went to negoatiate to Daenerys, and he expects that when he returns the North will accept the result of these negotiations as binding. If he does not, his going to her makes no sense. He said he has to go to Dany because he is the King, not the man who used to be the King.

I disagree.  For all intents and purposes, he's a Stark King willingly going to answer a Targaryen's call to bend the knee.  They make it clear with the "Royce" composite in that scene why that is taboo.  When he publicly grants authority to Sansa, it's him acknowledging there's a good chance he's not coming back, but he has to do it anyway (for the reasons you said).  That certainly does have meaning behind it.

18 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

I agree that achieving consensus is generally important, but I take issue when people try apply modern mentality.

Understanding the value of consensus is not applying modern mentality in the least.  That's a facile depiction of history.

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Just now, snow is the man said:

most people who believe she will turn evil believe it will be next season. By that time alot more characters will be dead or at least not get as much attention. Look at this episode for example. The sandsnakes have been cut in half and will likely be dead next episode so that is dorne essentially cut out. Cersei or euron will die this season or perhaps both cutting the time even farther. I expect one of the starks will die as well. Olenna will likely die this season as well. And most agree little finger will die as well.  So essentially we will have samwell's arc,arya's,jons,dany's,tyrion, and possibly jaime as well. Until this season I had been binge watching the show and now that I'm not I realize how each character gets a small amount of time if you add it all up each episode. That's the problem with a massive cast

LOL I have been in this fandom for a looong time. People used to say that Dany will totally want to burn Jon and the other Stark children at sight for having Ned Stark's blood. They said she would blow up the King's Landing, although that's clearly meant for Cersei: "I will burn cities to the ground!", anybody? They don't wanna to give up that dream of Evil Dany.

People want Dany to go evil, because they plain don't like her, or because she stands in the way of their desired endgame, or because they want a *cool* twist, but time and reasoning for that grow weaker and weaker with each season.

Anyway, I've argued with a person that apparently read the leaks, so there's that.

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Just now, lojzelote said:

LOL I have been in this fandom for a looong time. People used to say that Dany will totally want to burn Jon and the other Stark children at sight for having Ned Stark's blood. They said she would blow up the King's Landing, although that's clearly meant for Cersei: "I will burn cities to the ground!", anybody? They don't wanna to give up that dream of Evil Dany.

People want Dany to go evil, because they plain don't like her, or because she stands in the way of their desired endgame, or because they want a *cool* twist, but time and reasoning for that grow weaker and weaker with each season.

Anyway, I've argued with a person that apparently read the leaks, so there's that.

No the people dying are just me guessing. And I just think cersei will do it because it would fit it perfectly with her going out. I don't hate dany but the way they made her act in this episode seemed very different then she is usually. I really hope they don't make her evil to be honest.

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26 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I disagree.  For all intents and purposes, he's a Stark King willingly going to answer a Targaryen's call to bend the knee.  They make it clear with the "Royce" composite in that scene why that is taboo.  When he publicly grants authority to Sansa, it's him acknowledging there's a good chance he's not coming back, but he has to do it anyway (for the reasons you said).  That certainly does have meaning behind it.

Understanding the value of consensus is not applying modern mentality in the least.  That's a facile depiction of history.

I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me, since I don't actually disagree with you. Yes, he agrees with his nobles there is a risk, but he took it in spite of their advice. He appointed Sansa as the regent to rule in his stead while he is gone, because someone has to govern when he can't. But, that does not mean he gave up his title or his competences. If he makes a deal with Dany and returns to WF, he will expect that the North will uphold that deal.

That's not facile. What's facile is claiming that Jon is more "democratic" than Dany, because there were more people speaking their mind, when in the end he did what he wanted all the same. Democracy is a modern concept that does not enter into it in either council meeting.

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22 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me, since I don't actually disagree with you.

I just think his endorsement of Sansa is more significant than you're saying, that's all.

23 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

What's facile is claiming that Jon is more "democratic" than Dany, because there were more people speaking their mind, when in the end he did what he wanted all the same. Democracy is a modern concept that does not enter into it in either council meeting.

I agree that neither Jon nor Dany is democratic in any way (although I suppose you could argue Jon is more republican by addressing all, or at least most, of the lords that owe him fealty).  However, I have no problem with using the term "democratic" to express a general concept or comparison as an interpretation of events on a modern message board.  I think you're being needlessly strict in that regard.

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17 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I just think his endorsement of Sansa is more significant than you're saying, that's all.

Well, he had to appoint someone. It was either Sansa or any of the other Nothern lords. He can't leave the country without a regent or a clear authority.

It's no different from Ned saying to Catelyn that she has to govern the North in place while he has dealings in the South. During Robb's absence this responsibilty was given to Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin.

The endorsement of Sansa is important, because Sansa felt she's not being taken seriously. Now she knows she is.

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5 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Well, he had to appoint someone. It was either Sansa or any of the other Nothern lords. He can't leave the country without a regent or a clear authority.

It's no different from Ned saying to Catelyn that she has to govern the North in place while he has dealings in the South. During Robb's absence this responsibilty was given to Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin.

The endorsement of Sansa is important, because Sansa felt she's not being taken seriously. Now she knows she is.

agreed. Though I was not a fan of how she became very agreeable after that.  Oh I get power now well then do whatever you want

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2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Yup because telling his entire council to fuck off because he knows best and does what he wants is democratic. *rolls eyes*

For that matter, I believe he was right to act undemocratically.

 

It isn't democratic but it has more elements of democracy than Dany's set-up.  At least he is meeting with the lords and ladies regularly in a Council Room

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2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

But that "basically" does not have much meaning behind it. He went to negoatiate to Daenerys, and he expects that when he returns the North will accept the result of these negotiations as binding. If he does not, his going to her makes no sense. He said he has to go to Dany because he is the King, not the man who used to be the King.

I agree that achieving consensus is generally important, but I take issue when people try apply modern mentality. Besides, the nobles usually have their own selfish agenda - think of the nobilty calling Egg a tyrant for giving extra rights to commoners. The monarch's council pressing him for or against a certain decision less or more successfully does not make their kingdom neccessarily a better or freeer place to live. The same is true of the lowborn members. Varys was immediately biased against Melisandre before she said a single word, because she's does magic and he hates magicians.

Egg actually was a tyrant.  The issue is that supposedly "nice" kings can be as big in tyranny as bad kings.  What "favors" the monarch receives rests on the whims of an absolute monarch.

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1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

LOL I have been in this fandom for a looong time. People used to say that Dany will totally want to burn Jon and the other Stark children at sight for having Ned Stark's blood. They said she would blow up the King's Landing, although that's clearly meant for Cersei: "I will burn cities to the ground!", anybody? They don't wanna to give up that dream of Evil Dany.

People want Dany to go evil, because they plain don't like her, or because she stands in the way of their desired endgame, or because they want a *cool* twist, but time and reasoning for that grow weaker and weaker with each season.

Anyway, I've argued with a person that apparently read the leaks, so there's that.

It is going to be the cliched ending of everyone prostrating themselves before Dany, the great, wonderful, and perfect queen.  That irks for me because A. I hate the character and B. it means that Jon and the Starks lose and I am a fan of both.  Dany was really horrible and entitled in this episode and it really irks me that she is written to be such an unlikable person and Emilia plays her so unlikable and we are supposed to somehow root for her.

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7 hours ago, kg1982 said:

There has been something really off about her character since Season 5.  I suspect it is Emilia's acting choices as well as bad writing and directing.  Lena, who is a much better actress, can make Cersei sympathetic and understandable while still showing her as a villain.

 

Exactly my thoughts. Everyone hates Cersei and at the same time we just love her villanism. She's clever and revengeful, while Danny's just seems bitchy and stuck-up. 

 

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On 7/24/2017 at 7:28 AM, kg1982 said:

It is going to be the cliched ending of everyone prostrating themselves before Dany, the great, wonderful, and perfect queen.  That irks for me because A. I hate the character and B. it means that Jon and the Starks lose and I am a fan of both.  Dany was really horrible and entitled in this episode and it really irks me that she is written to be such an unlikable person and Emilia plays her so unlikable and we are supposed to somehow root for her.

Yeah, I like how Varys tells Dany her father was worse than Robert. That’s scrapping the bottom of the barrel right there. And then add to that fact, that House Stark and the North have particular grievances against House Targaryen. And Dany should know that. And all she can say is “tell him to come and bend the knee”.

Somebody, needs to square Dany’s ass away on a few matters. And it should be Jon, if he had any respect for his people or his house. But, he probably won’t. He’ll end up folding faster than superman on laundry day.

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1 minute ago, Fexyr said:

Exactly my thoughts. Everyone hates Cersei and at the same time we just love her villanism. She's clever and revengeful, while Danny's just seems bitchy and stuck-up. 

 

The issue for me is that we are supposed to be rooting for her as a hero.  I think that it is bad writing and acting choices.

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1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, I like how Varys tells Dany her father was worse than Robert. That’s scrapping the bottom of the barrel right there. And then add to that fact, that House Stark and the North have particular grievances against House Targaryen. And Dany should know that. And all she can say is “tell him to come and bend the knee”.

Somebody, needs to square Dany’s ass away on a few matters. And it should be Jon, if he had any respect for his people or his house. But, he probably won’t. He’ll end up folding faster than superman on laundry day.

Of course, he will.  After all it is so 'umble to fold like a cheap date and let the Queen walk all over you.

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1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

It isn't democratic but it has more elements of democracy than Dany's set-up.  At least he is meeting with the lords and ladies regularly in a Council Room

What the hell do you think Dany was doing this episode?  lol.  She was meeting with her council and she let them have their say. Yara, Ellaria and Olenna all shared their thoughts.

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10 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

What the hell do you think Dany was doing this episode?  lol.  She was meeting with her council and she let them have their say. Yara, Ellaria and Olenna all shared their thoughts.

And she will execute those who disagree with her because that is who she is.  Just like she threatened to execute Varys.

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5 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I just read that scene and didn't find anything to agree with him adoring her and being stupid.

Spoiler

He gives up the North to her for no reason while completely naked and emasculated because Dany deserves to be queen.  Because boys are evil and should not rule and Dany deserves it because she is badass and yells loud and stuff

 

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9 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

And she will execute those who disagree with her because that is who she is.  Just like she threatened to execute Varys.

No she didn't say she would execute him for disagreeing with her she said she would execute him for betraying her. That is a big difference. She wants him to disagree with her and let her know if what she is doing is wrong.

But yes. The penalty for treason is death. Jon believes that as well given he has executed several people already: Janos Slynt, Olly, Alliser Thorne and Bowen Marsh, etc.

 

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21 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

What the hell do you think Dany was doing this episode?  lol.  She was meeting with her council and she let them have their say. Yara, Ellaria and Olenna all shared their thoughts.

I don't think we can compare Dany to Jon here. She was meeting her council, yes, but the way she acted was so different from Jon. 

Jon reminded me of Ned, while Dany reminded me of Viserys (minus the madness, for now).

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15 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I just read that scene and didn't find anything to agree with him adoring her and being stupid.

Spoiler

actually acording to spoilers in ep 3/4 jon refuses her offer to help him if he bends the knee.

After 2 eps, acording to he leaks and scripts jon bends the knee because he sees danny inner force and that she is unstopable... I think it would be ok for jon to kneel but it has to be for valid reasons and aftter discussing it with the northern lords. NOT because he is enamorated with her...

 

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