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Allardyce

Spoiler: Dany's Small Council

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19 hours ago, El Guapo said:

No she didn't say she would execute him for disagreeing with her she said she would execute him for betraying her. That is a big difference. She wants him to disagree with her and let her know if what she is doing is wrong.

But yes. The penalty for treason is death. Jon believes that as well given he has executed several people already: Janos Slynt, Olly, Alliser Thorne and Bowen Marsh, etc.

 

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And what happens when he actually does disagree with her?  She might say it theoretically now but decide that she doesn't like the disagreement when it comes up.

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Spoiler

actually acording to spoilers in ep 3/4 jon refuses her offer to help him if he bends the knee.

After 2 eps, acording to he leaks and scripts jon bends the knee because he sees danny inner force and that she is unstopable... I think it would be ok for jon to kneel but it has to be for valid reasons and aftter discussing it with the northern lords. NOT because he is enamorated with her...

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Spoiler

This completely this.  I think that most people would be fine with Jon giving up the North strictly for aid.  But I am not fine with him selling out the North because Dany is being propped up as this great and prophetic figure who deserves to be queen.  I don't get why they are setting her up as this great and wonderful ruler when the show is showing exactly why she shouldn't be queen.  (I guess we can just assume that this is unintentional).  The whole oh Dany, you are perfect, you deserve to be queen thing when she is going around burning people and losing a war to Cersei Lannister.

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11 hours ago, divica said:
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actually acording to spoilers in ep 3/4 jon refuses her offer to help him if he bends the knee.

After 2 eps, acording to he leaks and scripts jon bends the knee because he sees danny inner force and that she is unstopable... I think it would be ok for jon to kneel but it has to be for valid reasons and aftter discussing it with the northern lords. NOT because he is enamorated with her...

 

Spoiler

Still, it bothers me so much that Jon is giving up North for that. Dany is demanding respect and Jon earned it. 

Giving up North bc he needs dragon glass and more people, and bc he sees the bigger picture (the White Walkers and the true war), that's ok.

Giving up North bc Dany has inner force and wants to rule Westeros, noooot ok.

I guess we will have to wait and see :(.  

 

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3 hours ago, kg1982 said:

And what happens when he actually does disagree with her?  She might say it theoretically now but decide that she doesn't like the disagreement when it comes up.

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This completely this.  I think that most people would be fine with Jon giving up the North strictly for aid.  But I am not fine with him selling out the North because Dany is being propped up as this great and prophetic figure who deserves to be queen.  I don't get why they are setting her up as this great and wonderful ruler when the show is showing exactly why she shouldn't be queen.  (I guess we can just assume that this is unintentional).  The whole oh Dany, you are perfect, you deserve to be queen thing when she is going around burning people and losing a war to Cersei Lannister.

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Nothing. Jorah has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him. Barrisatan Selmy has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  Tyrion has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  There is no reason to think she would react any differently know.

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29 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Nothing. Jorah has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him. Barrisatan Selmy has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  Tyrion has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  There is no reason to think she would react any differently know.

But she has that right as queen.  That is the big picture that I think you are missing.  The whole country should not be held captive to the whims and personal desires of an arrogant, entitled woman because she was born to the right family.

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On 7/23/2017 at 10:21 PM, Allardyce said:

That was a beautiful opening scene.  The drama and the tension were terrific.  Varys got grilled and rightly so.  Daenerys Stormborn proved her wisdom in setting terms with Varys.  Well played by both Emilia and Conleth.  Dany showed great wisdom here. 

I agree.  Dany proved once again why she should be the one to rule Westeros.  She handled Varys beautifully.  It's a scene that needed to happen between the two.  Varys recognized Dany as the best choice for Westeros.  Smart man.

The scene between Dany and Mellisandre is another terrific movie making.  I love the sound of HIgh Valyrian. 

It rolls off smoothly in the tongue!

 

On 7/23/2017 at 10:21 PM, Allardyce said:

Natalie Emmanuel is gorgeous. 

:blink:

Ah, Yara and Theon got careless.  Euron should never have gotten that close. 

They got overconfident.  Ofcourse it's unrealistic for Euron to build all those ships in that amount of time.  The Iron Isles are too small to make that many ships in terms of labor and materials.

I loved the episode.  

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2 hours ago, Fexyr said:
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Still, it bothers me so much that Jon is giving up North for that. Dany is demanding respect and Jon earned it. 

Giving up North bc he needs dragon glass and more people, and bc he sees the bigger picture (the White Walkers and the true war), that's ok.

Giving up North bc Dany has inner force and wants to rule Westeros, noooot ok.

I guess we will have to wait and see :(.  

 

Spoiler

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

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17 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

But she has that right as queen.  That is the big picture that I think you are missing.  The whole country should not be held captive to the whims and personal desires of an arrogant, entitled woman because she was born to the right family.

I am not missing anything. The fact that she could do it is irrelevant as there is no indication that she would.  You know Jon could have lopped as Sansa's head if he wanted to as well. That doesn't mean he would do it.  I am sorry but your argument is silly.

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13 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
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Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Lol? How manny armies has danny lead through a battle? And have you seen how danny liberated the slaves? She betrayed her word whenever it served her needs, she ordered the slaves to kill their masters without her needing to do anything... and by your logic danny should be ther worst ruller ever. 99% of the people loved her and she lost cities, the slaves love and had to flee to not die...

She has a lot to prove to be the greatest targ ever. We have no idea what her legacy will be...

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13 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
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Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Lol? How manny armies has danny lead through a battle? And have you seen how danny liberated the slaves? She betrayed her word whenever it served her needs, she ordered the slaves to kill their masters without her needing to do anything... and by your logic danny should be ther worst ruller ever. 99% of the people loved her and she lost cities, the slaves love and had to flee to not die...

She has a lot to prove to be the greatest targ ever. We have no idea what her legacy will be...

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41 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
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Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Spoiler

Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.

That is very right. Dany did pretty great things, but not alone, I must add. Like Jon, she did all this with help. 

Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.   

No, he shouldn't. She's no one to him or to Westeros, just the daughter of a mad King. She needs to prove herself worthy for the Westerosi. And Jon isn't just a bastard, he's the King in the North now. It isn't about pride, it's about swearing allegiance and loyalty to someone that actually deserves it

 

34 minutes ago, divica said:

Lol? How manny armies has danny lead through a battle? And have you seen how danny liberated the slaves? She betrayed her word whenever it served her needs, she ordered the slaves to kill their masters without her needing to do anything... and by your logic danny should be ther worst ruller ever. 99% of the people loved her and she lost cities, the slaves love and had to flee to not die...

She has a lot to prove to be the greatest targ ever. We have no idea what her legacy will be...

This. 

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On 7/24/2017 at 2:40 AM, lojzelote said:

LOL I have been in this fandom for a looong time. People used to say that Dany will totally want to burn Jon and the other Stark children at sight for having Ned Stark's blood. They said she would blow up the King's Landing, although that's clearly meant for Cersei: "I will burn cities to the ground!", anybody? They don't wanna to give up that dream of Evil Dany.

People want Dany to go evil, because they plain don't like her, or because she stands in the way of their desired endgame, or because they want a *cool* twist, but time and reasoning for that grow weaker and weaker with each season.

They also used to insist that Dany would never accept the truth about her father, but they had to drop that after she straight out called him "evil." One of the oddest ones to me has been the persistent claim that she never or rarely listens to her advisors, when in fact she has almost always been very open to advice. We saw that again here, not just listening to dissent in particular from Olenna, but also it's clear that this stupid plan is Tyrion's to begin with, and supported by Varys.

When D.B. Weiss spoke against the "mad queen" theory last year, some people thought it would finally die but I said it wouldn't and it won't even after the series is over. Some have been saying for years that she's already a villain. Because she's flawed and her flaws are magnified enormously by her immense power and responsibility, and brought out by the barbarism of her enemies, they will always hold on to those mistakes (and I admit she's made terrible mistakes -- it would be ludicrous if she hadn't, given her upbringing and environment and the cause she's taken on) to condemn her. Honestly, I thank them in a way because they've helped me analyze and appreciate her character a lot more than I otherwise would have.

On 7/24/2017 at 5:58 AM, kg1982 said:

And she will execute those who disagree with her because that is who she is.  Just like she threatened to execute Varys.

As El Guapo has pointed out, she's never killed or even punished anyone for disagreeing with her. Time and time again we've seen her close advisors disagree with her and she continued to value their counsel.

On 7/24/2017 at 8:23 AM, Fexyr said:

I don't think we can compare Dany to Jon here. She was meeting her council, yes, but the way she acted was so different from Jon. 

Jon reminded me of Ned, while Dany reminded me of Viserys (minus the madness, for now).

Viserys wouldn't have tolerated any disagreement and if he had Dany's army he'd already be King of the Ashes -- happily.

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34 minutes ago, cade said:

They also used to insist that Dany would never accept the truth about her father, but they had to drop that after she straight out called him "evil." One of the oddest ones to me has been the persistent claim that she never or rarely listens to her advisors, when in fact she has almost always been very open to advice. We saw that again here, not just listening to dissent in particular from Olenna, but also it's clear that this stupid plan is Tyrion's to begin with, and supported by Varys.

When D.B. Weiss spoke against the "mad queen" theory last year, some people thought it would finally die but I said it wouldn't and it won't even after the series is over. Some have been saying for years that she's already a villain. Because she's flawed and her flaws are magnified enormously by her immense power and responsibility, and brought out by the barbarism of her enemies, they will always hold on to those mistakes (and I admit she's made terrible mistakes -- it would be ludicrous if she hadn't, given her upbringing and environment and the cause she's taken on) to condemn her. Honestly, I thank them in a way because they've helped me analyze and appreciate her character a lot more than I otherwise would have.

As El Guapo has pointed out, she's never killed or even punished anyone for disagreeing with her. Time and time again we've seen her close advisors disagree with her and she continued to value their counsel.

Viserys wouldn't have tolerated any disagreement and if he had Dany's army he'd already be King of the Ashes -- happily.

No they are going to just portray her as a Mad Queen, but really want her to be seen as a savior and then get mad at people for their bad writing and directing choices.  And the issue is there are no checks on the Queen's power.  She can be nice to her servants like a benevolent master but she still sees them as her servants who live to serve her whims and desires.

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Why does it come as a surprise that some consider her evil or as someone who has the potential to turn evil when her council is constantly warning her not to commit genocide whenever she gets angry, starting from season 4 with Jorah.

It's not as if the showrunners haven't planted the seed for a possible villainous or just darker Dany with the constant references to Aerys, the constant looks of worry on her entourage's faces, the constant warnings against committing genocide, the arbitrary acts of "justice" etc. We literally got a scene with Barristan worrying about Dany's potential to turn into Aerys and his final words to her being: "But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time, it made him feel powerful... and right... until the very end."

And then Barristan dies and Dany burns a random former slaver alive while saying "Innocent. Maybe all of you are, maybe none of you are. Maybe I should let the dragons decide." And then lays her hand on Hizdahr to threaten him, only backing down when he doesn't kneel but just says Valar Morghulis, leading to his captivity instead followed by him spending days down there thinking she'll kill him, only for him to learn he has no choice but to marry her. And then, surprise surprise, turns out Hizdahr has literally nothing to do with the SotH. 


People are welcome to think she's an incredible person with nothing but mercy and compassion in her heart, but when a person repeatedly has to be told that genocide = bad, I'm going to question their character. I'm also going to wonder what's going to happen the day she doesn't have someone talking her down, like a child who needs to be placated. Sorry, being anti-slavery isn't enough for me when you burn and crucify random people alive and then force your victim to marry you.

You can disagree with her detractors all you like, but the costume designer deliberately designed her season 7 outfit with Viserys in mind and said: “I think it’s quite interesting that we finally see her embracing her brother's ambition. What does that say? You’re seeing the BEGINNING of something. We’re not at the end yet and I think it’s important at this moment that we start seeing who she is.”

Clearly, they're going for something here. Whether one interpretation is right over the other, I don't think anyone will come to an agreement, not unless Dany becomes a moustache twirling villain, which I doubt. But I don't think her goodness is an objective fact and it shouldn't come as a surprise that some dislike her when the creators and people involved with the show keep writing her character with stuff like the quote (which is not even close to being the shadiest thing they've said about her).

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On 7/23/2017 at 10:21 PM, Allardyce said:

Varys got grilled and rightly so.  Daenerys Stormborn proved her wisdom in setting terms with Varys.  Well played by both Emilia and Conleth.  Dany showed great wisdom here. 

Absolutely.  Questioning Varys is a logical thing to do for an intelligent person like Daenerys.   This is another high drama scene at Dragonstone.   

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9 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:
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Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  1Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  2Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  3Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

1Correct.  Jon is a shit battle commander.  

2True again.  Jon got lucky when Stannis arrived in the nick of time.  

3Daenerys is a proven winner.  I agree completely.  She defeated the slave masters and millions of people now have their freedom, thanks to Daenerys.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

1Correct.  Jon is a shit battle commander.  

2True again.  Jon got lucky when Stannis arrived in the nick of time.  

3Daenerys is a proven winner.  I agree completely.  She defeated the slave masters and millions of people now have their freedom, thanks to Daenerys.  

 

 

I have to throw in with this lot. Jon is good, but not AS good and needs Dany's muscle to and strategy to win his battles. Once Dany and Jon come together I think they could be a pretty formidable force against anyone.

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On 7/23/2017 at 10:24 PM, kg1982 said:

I thought that Dany came off as an awful bitch in her scenes.  She seemed almost pleased with being TPTWP and threatening Varys is not cool.  

I see that scene differently.  Daenerys proved why she should rule Westeros and why she is indeed the one who should lead.  Look, Varys betrayed the last king he served (Robert).  Every question that Dany asked were fair and deserved an answer.  That is what every smart leader should ask someone who wants to join the team.   Daenerys was properly firm and properly candid.  She showed maturity and intelligence when she made Varys swear to tell her if she ever fails the people instead of conspiring behind her back.  That's just direct and that's very smart. 

In contrast, look at Jon, who is not nearly as smart.  He turns his back on Sansa and leaves her in charge.  And loosing his temper so quickly with LIttlefinger.  That's being unreasonably prickly and what a simpleton would do.  Slow to think and quick to anger.  That's Jon. 

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5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

1Correct.  Jon is a shit battle commander.  

2True again.  Jon got lucky when Stannis arrived in the nick of time.  

3Daenerys is a proven winner.  I agree completely.  She defeated the slave masters and millions of people now have their freedom, thanks to Daenerys.  

 

 

To be fair Jon may not have won on his own as much as Dany but she did gave a bit more to work with, dragons are a bit hand up and a bit army. And she didn't actually fight herself or make the battle plans sometimes (that was jorah or grey worm or barristan or her old fuck buddy). Whereas Jon was defending the wall against 100,000 with like 100 guys and still won the night. He may have needed help from outside armies to finish the jobs (or really messed up the bastard battle) but again he didn't have commanders doing all the planning and fighting for him, or dragons to just say screw it and burn everyone. Not saying Dany hasn't done well, or making light of her accomplishments just saying hard to equally compare the two's battle records.

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Tyrion's plan took a big blow thanks to Euron. Now, either Ellaria, Tyene or Yara is going to spill the beans on the Casterly Rock attack and this grand plan of the Imp is going to unravel. Dany should have listened to Oleana. She is the only one on that council of hers that I have faith it.

I admit it, the show Imp is way too self righteous and sanctimonious to be a likable character to me.

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4 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

I see that scene differently.  Daenerys proved why she should rule Westeros and why she is indeed the one who should lead.  Look, Varys betrayed the last king he served (Robert).  Every question that Dany asked were fair and deserved an answer.  That is what every smart leader should ask someone who wants to join the team.   Daenerys was properly firm and properly candid.  She showed maturity and intelligence when she made Varys swear to tell her if she ever fails the people instead of conspiring behind her back.  That's just direct and that's very smart. 

In contrast, look at Jon, who is not nearly as smart.  He turns his back on Sansa and leaves her in charge.  And loosing his temper so quickly with LIttlefinger.  That's being unreasonably prickly and what a simpleton would do.  Slow to think and quick to anger.  That's Jon. 

People should conspire behind the backs of evil monarchs and work to overthrown them rather than being candid with them.  Was Varys supposed to be candid with Aerys?  Or Robert even?  There is no reason to believe that if Dany goes evil and is unreasonable that she will listen to counsel.  That is the whole point.  But hey Dany fans really don't want to hear that Princess Perfect is an entitled brat.

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