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Spoiler: Dany's Small Council

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5 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

She showed maturity and intelligence when she made Varys swear to tell her if she ever fails the people instead of conspiring behind her back.  That's just direct and that's very smart.

I agree it could work, but not on Varys. If you think anyone telling Aerys anything would've helped, rather than conspiring to have him removed, you're going to have a bad time. Threatening to do exactly what the Mad King did in the same sentence where you're trying to convince people you're not like him is... not all that smart.

Varys cannot be expected to believe that this ruler will be any more reasonable if challenged when it really matters - and I hope he doesn't buy into the Dany-is-the-Greatest kool-aid.

Dany may have warned Varys, but he pretty clearly warned her, too, and if she goes off the deep end (again), expecting him to politely say "this is when I would normally start working to undermine you but I won't" is wishful thinking.

The threat hanging over Varys' head has always been a painful death, and it never stopped him before.

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16 hours ago, cade said:

They also used to insist that Dany would never accept the truth about her father, but they had to drop that after she straight out called him "evil." One of the oddest ones to me has been the persistent claim that she never or rarely listens to her advisors, when in fact she has almost always been very open to advice. We saw that again here, not just listening to dissent in particular from Olenna, but also it's clear that this stupid plan is Tyrion's to begin with, and supported by Varys.

When D.B. Weiss spoke against the "mad queen" theory last year, some people thought it would finally die but I said it wouldn't and it won't even after the series is over. Some have been saying for years that she's already a villain. Because she's flawed and her flaws are magnified enormously by her immense power and responsibility, and brought out by the barbarism of her enemies, they will always hold on to those mistakes (and I admit she's made terrible mistakes -- it would be ludicrous if she hadn't, given her upbringing and environment and the cause she's taken on) to condemn her. Honestly, I thank them in a way because they've helped me analyze and appreciate her character a lot more than I otherwise would have.

As El Guapo has pointed out, she's never killed or even punished anyone for disagreeing with her. Time and time again we've seen her close advisors disagree with her and she continued to value their counsel.

Viserys wouldn't have tolerated any disagreement and if he had Dany's army he'd already be King of the Ashes -- happily.

One doesn't have to be "the Mad Queen" to be cold, proud, and harsh, which is how Daenerys is portrayed in the Show.  She doesn't chew the carpet like her father, but her natural inclination is to burn, torture, exterminate her opponents.  She does listen to advisers, but they're frequently having to persuade her to tone down the cruelty. 

That said, she may fulfill Maester Aemon's dictum that many good men have been bad kings, and some bad men have been good kings.  If she defeats the White Walkers, and rules with an iron fist for 40 years, burning opponents, but ensuring that the Smallfolk have peace, then she will count as a bad woman who is a good Queen.

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I agree it could work, but not on Varys. If you think anyone telling Aerys anything would've helped, rather than conspiring to have him removed, you're going to have a bad time. Threatening to do exactly what the Mad King did in the same sentence where you're trying to convince people you're not like him is... not all that smart.

Varys cannot be expected to believe that this ruler will be any more reasonable if challenged when it really matters - and I hope he doesn't buy into the Dany-is-the-Greatest kool-aid.

Dany may have warned Varys, but he pretty clearly warned her, too, and if she goes off the deep end (again), expecting him to politely say "this is when I would normally start working to undermine you but I won't" is wishful thinking.

The threat hanging over Varys' head has always been a painful death, and it never stopped him before.

Yep.  I don't get why people think that you can just go to a mad king or queen and tell them to please stop being mad.

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The thing about the parlay with varys in terms of story telling can mean two things:

1- he's betraying her eventually. so they set up the stakes of that particular 'game', foreshadow it, etc.

2- the writers wanted to give sense to his motivations, since the adaptations of his character removed some of its logical aspects (which is normal in such a huge adaptation). however, it's merely to satisfy some confused viewers, with no impact to the story whatsoever.

 

I'm pretty sure it's the 2nd.

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7 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

I see that scene differently.  Daenerys proved why she should rule Westeros and why she is indeed the one who should lead.  Look, Varys betrayed the last king he served (Robert).  Every question that Dany asked were fair and deserved an answer.  That is what every smart leader should ask someone who wants to join the team.   Daenerys was properly firm and properly candid.  She showed maturity and intelligence when she made Varys swear to tell her if she ever fails the people instead of conspiring behind her back.  That's just direct and that's very smart. 

In contrast, look at Jon, who is not nearly as smart.  He turns his back on Sansa and leaves her in charge.  And loosing his temper so quickly with LIttlefinger.  That's being unreasonably prickly and what a simpleton would do.  Slow to think and quick to anger.  That's Jon. 

Yes, but will she listen? Dany has a taste for violence. The thing is, if she thinks that what she's doing is right, then she won't listen to anyone. She thinks Targaryens are victims, but really, Aerys wasn't known as the Mad King just because. 

Power does get into your head when you want it so much, like she does. Dany sees herself as the righteous ruler, the sole bringer of justice -- her justice. 

About Jon, I agree he's not the smartest person around. But he didn't turn his back to Sansa, he gave her exactly what she wanted, and I'm sure she's happy with ruling the North. 

Losing his temper with Littlefinger is what anyone would do. Even Dany, if she was in his place. Damn, even Ned, lol. 

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7 minutes ago, Fexyr said:

 

Yes, but will she listen? Dany has a taste for violence. The thing is, if she thinks that what she's doing is right, then she won't listen to anyone. She thinks Targaryens are victims, but really, Aerys wasn't known as the Mad King just because. 

Power does get into your head when you want it so much, like she does. Dany sees herself as the righteous ruler, the sole bringer of justice -- her justice. 

About Jon, I agree he's not the smartest person around. But he didn't turn his back to Sansa, he gave her exactly what she wanted, and I'm sure she's happy with ruling the North. 

Losing his temper with Littlefinger is what anyone would do. Even Dany, if she was in his place. Damn, even Ned, lol. 

Ned had a similar scene with LF in Season 1.

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21 minutes ago, Fexyr said:

Losing his temper with Littlefinger is what anyone would do. Even Dany, if she was in his place. Damn, even Ned, lol. 

Yes, if only someone would lose their temper just a little bit more and get rid of the sly, smirking pustule at long last!

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Just now, Mikkel said:

Yes, if only someone would lose their temper just a little bit more and get rid of the sly, smirking pustule at long last!

If it happens this season, I'll be ecstatic.  

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The show likes surprise shock moments, so I don't think showrunners denying any theory that may spoil the show as something meaning the theory won't be true.  Dany ending as a complete mad queen theory, may be a bit unlikely, but isn't more today than the day before Weiss talked about that.

One thing looks sure for me after the Varys and Olenna scenes, they will play with the possibility of a harsh fire and blood turn for Dany, with some of her allies appealing to her violent tendancies trying to fight Tyrion's (and future Jon's) good influence, and with the failure of initial plan forcing Dany to take more extreme decisions her good side is likely to lose influence.

Imo, around the end of this season, mad queen Dany theory will be more popular than ever (if some of her decisions will be a surprise for the adepts of "good queen Dany" theory), because it's exactly.the interest of showrunners to keep some suspense about how she will evolve up to the last.

Now I don't think she'll be seen as evil/mad in the end (I'd rather bet on her sacrifice to save humanity if she isn't going to have a happy end),  but her morality is likely to make one or two spectacular U-turns before.

 

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Has anyone ever considered the perils of Tyrion's plan? By the way, even show-Tyrion has always been cleverer than the one we see in Season 7.

Around Westeros there are 3 fleets to be considered:

  1. The Daenerys Fleet (roughly 1.000 ships, 100  thereof from Yara's stolen part of the Iron Fleet).
  2. Euron's Fleet. He even announced the size of the fleet he wanted to build in the presence of Theon and Yara during the kingsmoot: 1.000 ships
  3. The Redwyne Fleet. No exact figures given in the show, as far as I remember, I estimate 500 ships.

So, when Tyrion wants to ship his Unsullied to Lannisport to capture Casterly Rock, he - not knowing the exact postion of the two enemy fleets - necessarily risks to meet both of them. Because the only seaway is from Dragonstone around Dorne, then passing the Iron Islands.

That is a huge risk to take.

If Tyrion wants to avoid a direct attack on KL, then why not work from the eastern shore where they have landed (well Dragonstone is very close to the eastern shore of Westeros) and take either Gulltown (Access to food in Vale) or Storm's end and then close the ranks with Tyrell army?

Oh by the way, sitting on Dragonstone, no one on Dany's council ever mentions that there might be a food problem for men and horse (remember: 100.000 - or whatever the size of her Dothraki army - these man are riders? One horse for each man).

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10 hours ago, Holly Macaroni said:

2- the writers wanted to give sense to his motivations, since the adaptations of his character removed some of its logical aspects (which is normal in such a huge adaptation). however, it's merely to satisfy some confused viewers, with no impact to the story whatsoever.

That confrontation was necessary because, as my fellow fans have already written, Varys had a lot of explaining to do.  A great ruler like Daenerys needed to precisely know where Varys' loyalty is.  That was a smart move by Dany to confront Varys and put the pressure.  That is how you get answers.  And it doesn't stop there.  Daenerys went on to lay down the law of the terms of his service.  She told directly what she needs and expects from him.  That was needed to clear the air. 

9 hours ago, kg1982 said:

Ned had a similar scene with LF in Season 1.

Ned is an idiot.  And Jon took after him.

9 hours ago, Fexyr said:

 

Yes, but will she listen? Dany has a taste for violence. The thing is, if she thinks that what she's doing is right, then she won't listen to anyone. She thinks Targaryens are victims, but really, Aerys wasn't known as the Mad King just because. 

Power does get into your head when you want it so much, like she does. Dany sees herself as the righteous ruler, the sole bringer of justice -- her justice. 

About Jon, I agree he's not the smartest person around. But he didn't turn his back to Sansa, he gave her exactly what she wanted, and I'm sure she's happy with ruling the North. 

Losing his temper with Littlefinger is what anyone would do. Even Dany, if she was in his place. Damn, even Ned, lol. 

That little soap opera between Daenerys and Varys proved how intelligent these two characters are.  They both handled that confrontation very well and both set their ground.  If I had to choose which ruler to serve in Westeros, it will be no contest.  I will gladly serve Daenerys Targaryen. 

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23 minutes ago, Annalee said:

That confrontation was necessary because, as my fellow fans have already written, Varys had a lot of explaining to do.  A great ruler like Daenerys needed to precisely know where Varys' loyalty is.  That was a smart move by Dany to confront Varys and put the pressure.  That is how you get answers.  And it doesn't stop there.  Daenerys went on to lay down the law of the terms of his service.  She told directly what she needs and expects from him.  That was needed to clear the air. 

Ned is an idiot.  And Jon took after him.

That little soap opera between Daenerys and Varys proved how intelligent these two characters are.  They both handled that confrontation very well and both set their ground.  If I had to choose which ruler to serve in Westeros, it will be no contest.  I will gladly serve Daenerys Targaryen. 

The great ruler who all must kneel to who lost her entire fleet to Euron.  LOL.  Okay there.  And Varys should conspire against her if she goes crazy or is evil.

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On 7/25/2017 at 8:39 AM, El Guapo said:

Nothing. Jorah has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him. Barrisatan Selmy has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  Tyrion has disagreed with her. She didn't kill him.  There is no reason to think she would react any differently know.

Agree.  This is true.

On 7/25/2017 at 9:20 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I agree.  Dany proved once again why she should be the one to rule Westeros.  She handled Varys beautifully.  It's a scene that needed to happen between the two.  Varys recognized Dany as the best choice for Westeros.  Smart man.

 

On 7/25/2017 at 9:25 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Yes.  Jon is not an actual king because the north is not independent.  He needs to kneel.

23 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

1Correct.  Jon is a shit battle commander.  

2True again.  Jon got lucky when Stannis arrived in the nick of time.  

3Daenerys is a proven winner.  I agree completely.  She defeated the slave masters and millions of people now have their freedom, thanks to Daenerys.  

 

 

I have always found it silly that some people think Jon is fit to lead the battle.  He's no general.  Stannis and Littlefinger saved his ass both times.  While Dany is a proven winner.

18 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion's plan took a big blow thanks to Euron. Now, either Ellaria, Tyene or Yara is going to spill the beans on the Casterly Rock attack and this grand plan of the Imp is going to unravel. Dany should have listened to Oleana. She is the only one on that council of hers that I have faith it.

I admit it, the show Imp is way too self righteous and sanctimonious to be a likable character to me.

I agree.  Tyrion should be demoted to political advisor.  Jorah will be back.  I say promote Jorah to General.

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2 hours ago, Annalee said:

That confrontation was necessary because, as my fellow fans have already written, Varys had a lot of explaining to do.  A great ruler like Daenerys needed to precisely know where Varys' loyalty is.  That was a smart move by Dany to confront Varys and put the pressure.  That is how you get answers.  And it doesn't stop there.  Daenerys went on to lay down the law of the terms of his service.  She told directly what she needs and expects from him.  That was needed to clear the air. 

Ned is an idiot.  And Jon took after him.

That little soap opera between Daenerys and Varys proved how intelligent these two characters are.  They both handled that confrontation very well and both set their ground.  If I had to choose which ruler to serve in Westeros, it will be no contest.  I will gladly serve Daenerys Targaryen. 

So, you think that talking to others like you are better than everybody and ending with threatning to burn people is how a monarch should beahave? I won t even talk about the dialogue between varys and danny which I think was well done with varys clarifying his stand and tyrion being afraid of danny's response. But the tone danny uses in that entire scene is awful. It is impossible for me to relate to someone that talks like that...

Then I am sorry, but if instead of danny you had a sweetrobin always saying "lets burn the evil men" with tyrion responding "you don t want to be like your father, don t do it your grace" there wouldn t be much diference between the talks of danny and tyrion... You can t say that danny is smart or brilliant... she seems like a mean kid with some good moments.

And I agree that jon isn t the sharpest knife in the box, but for several seasons that jon has a diferent vision/objective from everyone surrounding him and he has been acomplishing his goals... that has to count for something. And the battle against the wildlings was a huge victory! 100 men holding against 100k and being attacked on 2 fronts is probable the greatest militar feat in the show!

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3 hours ago, Annalee said:

That confrontation was necessary because, as my fellow fans have already written, Varys had a lot of explaining to do.  A great ruler like Daenerys needed to precisely know where Varys' loyalty is.  That was a smart move by Dany to confront Varys and put the pressure.  That is how you get answers.  And it doesn't stop there.  Daenerys went on to lay down the law of the terms of his service.  She told directly what she needs and expects from him.  That was needed to clear the air. 

The thing people usually complain about the confrontation isn't the confrontation itself, it's its timing.

However, in this case, I wasn't complaining about it, I was just trying to put myself inside the writer's heads and try to understand why they put this particular scene here. I wasn't making any judgements. In fact, when I spoke about some inconsistencies in his motivations I said:

13 hours ago, Holly Macaroni said:

(which is normal in such a huge adaptation)

As in, they (the inconsistencies in character motivation) occurred naturally as adaptations were being made to the story. And so, some viewers were confused. And so was Dany, hence the confrontation. Now that I think about it, this, per se, is a good thing; means they didn't overlook it.

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14 hours ago, Fexyr said:

 

Yes, but will she listen? Dany has a taste for violence. The thing is, if she thinks that what she's doing is right, then she won't listen to anyone. She thinks Targaryens are victims, but really, Aerys wasn't known as the Mad King just because. 

This is completely untrue. She knows full well how bad Aerys was. Have people completely forgotten her talking to Yara, Theon and Tyrion about wanting to make a better world and how all of their father's were evil? Short memory on some I guess. 

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3 hours ago, Nictarion said:

This is completely untrue. She knows full well how bad Aerys was. Have people completely forgotten her talking to Yara, Theon and Tyrion about wanting to make a better world and how all of their father's were evil? Short memory on some I guess. 

saying something and doing it are two different things. I have liked dany for the most part but this episode she seemed to be going dark to me. She sounds so arrogant and that she is better then everyone else and that is because of how the actress is doing it. It makes me wonder if they are setting it up for that

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On 7/25/2017 at 9:25 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Jon is not Dany's equal.  Jon should bend the knee and swear fealty.  Jon would have lost the battle of the bastards had it not been for Petyr Baelish.  Jon would have lost the battle at the wall if not for Stannis.  Jon is not qualified to lead the armies of the living against the Others.  Dany is a proven winner.  This is the woman who just ended thousands of years of slavery.  She is the greatest Targaryen of all time.  Jon should swallow his pride and bend the knee immediately.  

Okay I love both jon and dany (though not this episode) and I have to disagree with you. Jon did lose the battle of the batsards because of a stupid mistake but I think he learned from it. And as for the wall how was he supposed to hold it. There were less then a hundred men of the nights watch and a hundred thousand wildlings. He held off the wildlings and that was impressive. Also dany has had a ton of help. She had ser jorah and darrio (or whatever his name is) win yunkai for her and grey worm win mereen.  In astapor she played it smart and you have to give her that. But dany is not some amazing general who is unbeatable and amazing at everything. She worked hard and deserves some credit but she had alot of help.  I think jon would be a great ruler and dany would be one as well.

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Dany might carry herself with arrogance but she has still always listened to Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan and her other councillors.

Jon is utterly convinced of his own right, barely acknowledges Littlefinger in meetings, rebukes all input by Yohn Royce and the Northern lords and vocally makes his scepticism about listening to Sansa being smart known.

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12 hours ago, kg1982 said:

The great ruler who all must kneel to who lost her entire fleet to Euron.  LOL.  Okay there.  And Varys should conspire against her if she goes crazy or is evil.

I doubt if she has lost the whole of her fleet.  Just the part that was commanded by Yara.

 

13 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Has anyone ever considered the perils of Tyrion's plan? By the way, even show-Tyrion has always been cleverer than the one we see in Season 7.

Around Westeros there are 3 fleets to be considered:

  1. The Daenerys Fleet (roughly 1.000 ships, 100  thereof from Yara's stolen part of the Iron Fleet).
  2. Euron's Fleet. He even announced the size of the fleet he wanted to build in the presence of Theon and Yara during the kingsmoot: 1.000 ships
  3. The Redwyne Fleet. No exact figures given in the show, as far as I remember, I estimate 500 ships.

So, when Tyrion wants to ship his Unsullied to Lannisport to capture Casterly Rock, he - not knowing the exact postion of the two enemy fleets - necessarily risks to meet both of them. Because the only seaway is from Dragonstone around Dorne, then passing the Iron Islands.

That is a huge risk to take.

If Tyrion wants to avoid a direct attack on KL, then why not work from the eastern shore where they have landed (well Dragonstone is very close to the eastern shore of Westeros) and take either Gulltown (Access to food in Vale) or Storm's end and then close the ranks with Tyrell army?

Oh by the way, sitting on Dragonstone, no one on Dany's council ever mentions that there might be a food problem for men and horse (remember: 100.000 - or whatever the size of her Dothraki army - these man are riders? One horse for each man).

My guess is that troops are being ferried from Dragonstone to the mainland, where they're establishing a bridgehead.  Marching overland to Casterly Rock would be an option.

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