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Spoiler: Dany's Small Council

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10 hours ago, divica said:

So, you think that talking to others like you are better than everybody and ending with threatning to burn people is how a monarch should beahave? I won t even talk about the dialogue between varys and danny which I think was well done with varys clarifying his stand and tyrion being afraid of danny's response. But the tone danny uses in that entire scene is awful. It is impossible for me to relate to someone that talks like that...

 

It depends on the motivation.  A ruler who threatens to burn someone alive is plainly not a nice person.  But, a harsh ruler might be what Westeros needs at this point in its history.

It certainly doesn't need a ruler who burns people alive for shit and giggles.  But, a ruler who burns rebels alive, yet establishes decades of peace could well be a benefit to the Smallfolk.

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47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My guess is that troops are being ferried from Dragonstone to the mainland, where they're establishing a bridgehead.  Marching overland to Casterly Rock would be an option.

Hmm, that's quite a long march, highly organized medieval armies marched 15 to 18 miles per day. From Duskendale to Casterly Rock is probably 600+ miles, so it would take an army at least 33 days to travel to Casterly rock over land. And that would be without any interruption or skirmishes along the way.

The route over water might be longer (since you have to pass under Dorne) and is possibly up to 2400 miles. A ship travels at about 6 Mph, but can do this 24/7. So a ship would take half the time a march over land would take. Not to mention that an army that has marched for 600+ miles would be exhausted, while an army going by ship should be properly rested (except for some who get seasick)

(distances are guestimated, based on a 300 mile long wall)

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It depends on the motivation.  A ruler who threatens to burn someone alive is plainly not a nice person.  But, a harsh ruler might be what Westeros needs at this point in its history.

It certainly doesn't need a ruler who burns people alive for shit and giggles.  But, a ruler who burns rebels alive, yet establishes decades of peace could well be a benefit to the Smallfolk.

Sooo... Stannis? Just kidding, I know this is the show forum, and in the show continuity, Stannis is a complete joke.

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On 7/26/2017 at 3:49 AM, SeanF said:

One doesn't have to be "the Mad Queen" to be cold, proud, and harsh, which is how Daenerys is portrayed in the Show.  She doesn't chew the carpet like her father, but her natural inclination is to burn, torture, exterminate her opponents.  She does listen to advisers, but they're frequently having to persuade her to tone down the cruelty. 

That said, she may fulfill Maester Aemon's dictum that many good men have been bad kings, and some bad men have been good kings.  If she defeats the White Walkers, and rules with an iron fist for 40 years, burning opponents, but ensuring that the Smallfolk have peace, then she will count as a bad woman who is a good Queen.

That's only happened four times, and in all but one instance (crucifixions) she very quickly relented. More often she has gone against the cruel counsel of her advisors. In season 1, Jorah told her not to bother trying to stop the rape of slaves. Then he advised against freeing hundreds of thousands of slaves in Yunkai. Barristan recommended she abandon Meereen just after it was liberated (and Jorah's only reservation there was skepticism that they were ready to take Westeros).

Daario advised her to unleash the dragons even though she couldn't control them and believed they were a threat to innocents. He said she should kill all the Great Masters. Missandei approved of her feeding one of the Masters to her dragons ("Now you have given the Masters what they deserve"). Dany doubted herself over it and instead married one of them and opened the fighting pits for peace. Even before that, she'd let the vast majority of Masters off super easy, allowing them to keep their pyramids and probably most or all of their stolen wealth even after she had strong reason to believe that some of them were funding the Sons of the Harpy.

A cold and harsh person with the amount of power she had never would've made such extremely generous compromises (which led to them nearly killing her), nor sacrificed and risked so much to help liberate hundreds of thousands of people she's never known nor needed. The Wise Masters of Yunkai offered her all the ships she required to get to Westeros, plus a massive tribute of gold, if only she'd taken Jorah's advice. Though her heart has been hardened somewhat by her enemies since then, and she sadly didn't stay to finish the job in Essos (which pleased her purported moral superiors in Tyrion and Varys), she still told Yara their mission will be to "leave the world better than we found it."

Now we see Dany's ethical concerns rightly causing her to decline invading King's Landing, but Tyrion misleads her into going along with his barbaric plan to lay siege to a city full of civilians. That would be far worse than crucifying members of a slave master elite, all of whom either condoned the crucifixions of 163 children or at least didn't think they were anything worth resigning over. 

I referenced that Dany's been harsh in saying she's made terrible mistakes and linked to video of D.B. Weiss saying "there's a ruthlessness that comes with even the good Targaryens." But those moments don't define her, no more than it would be fair to say she's a saint and a dove for the times she's shown unparalleled compassion to strangers and incredible leniency to depraved enemies. If she hadn't shown violent excesses after being thrust into such a violent world, she wouldn't be a believable character. She'd be called a "Mary Sue" even more than she is now. 

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6 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Hmm, that's quite a long march, highly organized medieval armies marched 15 to 18 miles per day. From Duskendale to Casterly Rock is probably 600+ miles, so it would take an army at least 33 days to travel to Casterly rock over land. And that would be without any interruption or skirmishes along the way.

The route over water might be longer (since you have to pass under Dorne) and is possibly up to 2400 miles. A ship travels at about 6 Mph, but can do this 24/7. So a ship would take half the time a march over land would take. Not to mention that an army that has marched for 600+ miles would be exhausted, while an army going by ship should be properly rested (except for some who get seasick)

(distances are guestimated, based on a 300 mile long wall)

My main point for assuming that Tyrion plans to ship the Unsullied to Lannisport is that the attack of Casterly Rock is supposed to be a surprise action, not leaving Cersei anytime to react. Moving an army under her nose all through the Crown Lands, Riverlands or The Reach and then the Westerlands would hardly have come unnoticed.

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Those saying Dany is a proven winner while Jon is not, have we been watching the same series?  Are we taking the same circumstances into account?  Jon didn't want to fight the wildlings.  He did everything he could to slow them down, then led the Night's Watch with 100 men while Janos hid and Thorne recovered from injuries.  Robert, Stannis and Randyl Tarly couldn't have done any better with the assets at their disposal.  Jon didn't want to attack Winterfell.  Sansa fucks up with no thinking and is never held accountable once again, and pleads with Jon to protect her and retake Winterfell.  It isn't until Ramsay sends the pink letter, demanding Jon return Sansa and slaughter the wildlings Jon saved from joining the army of the dead, did Jon realize the realm's only hope at survival was uniting the North and deposing House Bolton.  And worse, Sansa hid that she had 5k Vale Knights at her disposal.  

 

Meanwhile Dany cheats the Yunkai out of the Unsullied.  Really honorable, and uses their status as slaves to kill the masters before offering them to go free and die in the desert or follow her.  She then invades Mereen, for reasons.  I didn't realize that slavery was all that different from the serfdom she embraces in Westeros.  Whether the person disobeying her is a slave or a noble, the penalty is still the same.  Yay equality?  She then burns the Dothraki khals alive because they dared ask her to uphold the customs and traditions she eagerly embraced when it suited her.  And only then adds 100k Dothraki to her ranks.  In short, Dany has been the antagonist in nearly every battle she's won and with the exception of burning the Khals, has never put herself in personal danger to accomplish anything.  And since show Dany is immune to fire, she really didn't endanger herself by burning the Khals alive (apparently Dany can live without Oxygen and can breathe smoke too).

 

Jon was a bastard who worked for everything he has.  He was front and center, bleeding and sweating, putting his life in danger the same as any man fighting alongside him.  I'm not saying one is a better leader than the other.  Just that this notion of Dany being a proven winner is completely bunk.  Like every other female character in this show save Brienne and Arya, Dany relies on other people to accomplish her ends.

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44 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Jon was a bastard who worked for everything he has.  He was front and center, bleeding and sweating, putting his life in danger the same as any man fighting alongside him.  I'm not saying one is a better leader than the other.  Just that this notion of Dany being a proven winner is completely bunk.  Like every other female character in this show save Brienne and Arya, Dany relies on other people to accomplish her ends.

Oh please. He is a high born bastard who was brought up in a castle, educated by a maester, taught to fight by a master of arms, and never lacked a for food or clothing or anything of the sort his entire life prior to joining the NW. A fact that Tyrion had to remind him of when he was acting like a spoiled brat in season one. I will further add that the only reason he became Mormont's steward in the first place was because unlike the other recruits he was educated and knew how to fight thanks to being Ned Stark's bastard and growing up in Winterfell. So  lets not act like this is some rags to riches story about some poor bastard who rose from nothing and made a great life for himself (that would be Davos).

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I doubt if she has lost the whole of her fleet.  Just the part that was commanded by Yara.

 

My guess is that troops are being ferried from Dragonstone to the mainland, where they're establishing a bridgehead.  Marching overland to Casterly Rock would be an option.

She lost a large portion of her fleet.

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Gosh, some people have no sense of proportion with the crazy idea of women in control, and who have love relationships with men who actually like spirited women. We could have a separate sig for Red State for women hating, with psychological services available.

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On 7/26/2017 at 6:07 PM, kg1982 said:

The great ruler who all must kneel to who lost her entire fleet to Euron.  LOL.  Okay there.  And Varys should conspire against her if she goes crazy or is evil.

That was a setback and only represented a small part of the Targaryen Fleet.  Tyrion and Yara must take part of the blame for that poor strategy.  Lady O was right, Dany should take a more aggressive approach. 

Okay, let's look at the so-called king-in-the-north.  Jon bungled every battle he's ever been in.  Stannis had to bail his ass out during the battle for the Wall.  Petyr Baelish and Robin Arryn had to bail his impulsive ass during the battle of the bastards.   Dany should lead Westeros if they are to survive through the long night.

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3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Oh please. He is a high born bastard who was brought up in a castle, educated by a maester, taught to fight by a master of arms, and never lacked a for food or clothing or anything of the sort his entire life prior to joining the NW. A fact that Tyrion had to remind him of when he was acting like a spoiled brat in season one. I will further add that the only reason he became Mormont's steward in the first place was because unlike the other recruits he was educated and knew how to fight thanks to being Ned Stark's bastard and growing up in Winterfell. So  lets not act like this is some rags to riches story about some poor bastard who rose from nothing and made a great life for himself (that would be Davos).

Correct. 

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1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 Okay, let's look at the so-called king-in-the-north. 

So-called? What is it that allows you to say that?  He's the KINT, deal with it.

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On 7/27/2017 at 6:12 AM, SeanF said:

Marching overland to Casterly Rock would be an option.

I thought show Tyrion's plan was to sail the Unsullied around Westeros to take Casterly Rock, which is ridiculous.

Show Tyrion's entire plan is ridiculous. It seems to me Dany and Co.'s strategic problem is fairly straightforward. Lure Cersei's forces out and destroy them. All this takin that city and this place is with all these forces not in support of each other seems kind of stupid. But then again I'm kind of a fan of march divided, fight united. Sure threaten places to get Cersei to commit her forces. But, get her forces to committ. It's not like Dany wouldn't have overwhelming firepower or anything.

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6 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Meanwhile Dany cheats the Yunkai out of the Unsullied.  Really honorable, and uses their status as slaves to kill the masters before offering them to go free and die in the desert or follow her.  She then invades Mereen, for reasons.  I didn't realize that slavery was all that different from the serfdom she embraces in Westeros.  Whether the person disobeying her is a slave or a noble, the penalty is still the same.  Yay equality?  She then burns the Dothraki khals alive because they dared ask her to uphold the customs and traditions she eagerly embraced when it suited her.  And only then adds 100k Dothraki to her ranks.  In short, Dany has been the antagonist in nearly every battle she's won and with the exception of burning the Khals, has never put herself in personal danger to accomplish anything.  And since show Dany is immune to fire, she really didn't endanger herself by burning the Khals alive (apparently Dany can live without Oxygen and can breathe smoke too).

This is so true!! Danny is always cheating people in her negotiations. You could also add when the masters in a peace negotiation offer her Money for her to go away to westeros she takes the Money and sends the master away or he will die...

 

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

That was a setback and only represented a small part of the Targaryen Fleet.  Tyrion and Yara must take part of the blame for that poor strategy.  Lady O was right, Dany should take a more aggressive approach. 

Okay, let's look at the so-called king-in-the-north.  Jon bungled every battle he's ever been in.  Stannis had to bail his ass out during the battle for the Wall.  Petyr Baelish and Robin Arryn had to bail his impulsive ass during the battle of the bastards.   Dany should lead Westeros if they are to survive through the long night.

Again, keeping 100K wildlings away with 100 men while being attacked on 2 fronts is probably the greatest military feat we have seen in the show! Nothing comes even close.

Actually, the last thing danny should do is obviously take an agressive strategy. She is bringing dothriaki, iron born and dragons! All three of these represent destruction for smallfolk and lords and the last targarien was mad. How is danny supposed to rule if she starts burning cities? She will be seen as a villain and mad by everybody. That will bring tons of problems.

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51 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I thought show Tyrion's plan was to sail the Unsullied around Westeros to take Casterly Rock, which is ridiculous.

Show Tyrion's entire plan is ridiculous. It seems to me Dany and Co.'s strategic problem is fairly straightforward. Lure Cersei's forces out and destroy them. All this takin that city and this place is with all these forces not in support of each other seems kind of stupid. But then again I'm kind of a fan of march divided, fight united. Sure threaten places to get Cersei to commit her forces. But, get her forces to committ. It's not like Dany wouldn't have overwhelming firepower or anything.

cersei's forces wouldn t march out to meet danny forces...

Tyrion's plan was pretty good, the problem is that no one in that room had ever fought a war. Tyrion and everybody else simply forgot that cersei wouldn t stay put waiting for them to destroy her... She would go to euron, the lords that don t want dothriaki on westeros, sellswords, use hostages to force the riverlands to help and even try to negotiate with the vale (littlefinger). There are a lot of moves she could do that noone mentioned in that scene. It appears everybody tought that cersei was doomed and wouldn t do anything.

 

Then you can t forget that danny is only attacking the crownlands and the westerlands. so making a siege of KL with close to 100K men and conquering CR with subterfuge seem like good ideas...

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On 7/27/2017 at 10:45 PM, divica said:

cersei's forces wouldn t march out to meet danny forces...

Tyrion's plan was pretty good, the problem is that no one in that room had ever fought a war. Tyrion and everybody else simply forgot that cersei wouldn t stay put waiting for them to destroy her... She would go to euron, the lords that don t want dothriaki on westeros, sellswords, use hostages to force the riverlands to help and even try to negotiate with the vale (littlefinger). There are a lot of moves she could do that noone mentioned in that scene. It appears everybody tought that cersei was doomed and wouldn t do anything.

 

Then you can t forget that danny is only attacking the crownlands and the westerlands. so making a siege of KL with close to 100K men and conquering CR with subterfuge seem like good ideas...

1. Why send Yara's fleet to Dorne. Why not have the Dornish link up with the Tyrells in the Reach. And then reduce any supporters Cersei has in the Reach. The show kind of treats naval transport as not being risky. But, with medieval tech, it's kind of risky. So why take it, if you don't have to.

2. If the Dornish and the Tyrell Army link up in the Reach, that would cut off Cersei from the Westerlands. That might be quite alarming to her.

3. Why send the Unsullied around Westeros to Casterly Rock, where they will be unsupported. That really is a big problem. The Unsullied might be good infantry, but they would be operating without any type of missle or calvary troops. Plus, they would be trying to pull off a seige with no supporting forces in the area. It seems to me their asses would be kind of hangin' in the wind there.That's assuming of course they don't all drown in some kind of naval disaster.

4. When about 8,000 - 10,000 troops have to disembark from the sea and the roll up to Casterly Rock, I'd hardley call that taking CR with "subterfuge". Somebody is going to notice that.

5. It would be just simpler to have the Unsullied with the Tyrell forces and the Dornish forces in the Reach. If Cersei doesn't do anything while she is being cut off from the Westerlands and whatever supporters she has in the Reach, okay fine, then take KL. It should be fairly easy, then.

6. Also if Dany and Tyrion were smart (but everyone is kind of dumb in GOT) it seems to me they would have tried to make some diplomatic overtures with the Vale. I mean they should both know the Vale has no love for either the Lannisters or Targaryens. But, you know, Dany could do something like, "You know, I know my dad was a flamin' idiot. And I promise I won't be a flamin' idiot too. And I don't expect you to follow flamin' idiots. Go with me, and you'll get better deal than what you would get with crazy old Cersei". That might have gotten a few thousand more troops.

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Six seasons of build up and this is what we get. It'd have made more sense to warn Dany against using her dragons on King's Landing because of the caches of wildfire spread around the city, which Tyrion was aware of last season. Still, Tyrion plan wasn't necessarily a dumb one, they just suffered because Team Cersei is playing on Dany mode now. Or maybe he doesn't want Jaime to burn along with Cersei. I know they've done away with the three treasons prophecy, but it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion screwed Dany over for his brother: a treason for love. Myrcella already died partly because of Tyrion, and Jaime's death on top of that would destroy him.

Olenna's plan was just dumb. Starving out the city was the strategy used by the Tyrells in season two and they successfully managed to turn the common folk against the Lannisters. But Olenna doesn't have the patience to wait around for a year or whatever, she wants Cersei dead as soon as possible and to hell with whoever suffers.

I wonder if fewer people would believe Dany's going mad if the character was played by a better actress? There's no warmth or humanity to Clarke's portrayal of Daenerys; she's just 50% smug, 25% arrogant and 25% entitled. Even when faced by a sellsword who's snuck into the room while she's bathing, or chained by the Dothraki with the threat of rape or enslavement hanging over her, there's no fear or worry or doubt. She's fully confident in her own awesomeness. That's boring. 

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Regarding Danny's tone at the beginning of the show, I found it fitting (if not late).  She has been betrayed numerous times costing her among other things a husband and child.  Dressing down one of those responsible is by no means inappropriate nor does it make her a "villain" nor "bitchy" it was entirely justified and again a bit late (which I put on the writers).  

She was wrong not to proceed with efforts to win the war as quickly as possible and then focus on keeping the peace et al.  Tyrion was very wrong on this particularly given how recent the destruction of the Sept occurred (quite frankly a bit out of character as well given how he knows the damage a drawn out war would bring, he's not inexperienced with the horrors of war no a moron).  The Queen of Thornes should have long ago gotten her Bannermen in line and had a supply line set up for the foreign armies and just blitzed King's landing and be done with it.  Given Kevin and his family's demise not even all the Lannister's would be backing the Queen.  The sheer presence of the Dragons et all could have lead to an insurrection w/in King's Landing similar to what happened in Danny's previous campaigns.  

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Not introducing Young Griff really butchered Vary's character & his early season decision making. And it's extremely disappointing because Conleth is so good as Varys. Add to the fact that the Young Griff subplot is one of the most interesting to me from the books....

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8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

That was a setback and only represented a small part of the Targaryen Fleet.  Tyrion and Yara must take part of the blame for that poor strategy. 

Those ships were meant to transport an army, tens of thousands of Dornishmen. That's takes a fatload of ships.

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