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Risto

Discusing Sansa XVIII: North and South

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10 hours ago, Risto said:

I have read many wrong assessments regarding Sansa's arc, but this one puts all of them to shame... Simply, this is as wrong as it gets.

We've seen everything Risto, it's an example of the "slow mind stuck in season one" mindset, no one can fix the world. For me, after what happened to Ed Sheeran, the fandom is going downhill, thank god the show is near its end

10 hours ago, Risto said:

I think that weirwood is where she feels the safest. In KL, it was the only place where she can be alone, true to herself, without anyone, without lies. It is also a place, as she said in Season 4, where no one talks to her. I think that weirwood may be the place she goes not for prayer, but for that peace and solitude we all need sometimes.

For all her Southorn looks and comparisons with Cat, there is so much of Ned in her. And this is yet another exa

Maybe it is where she killed LF? killing LF under the weirwood tree would be a symbolism for the vengeance for Ned

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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12 hours ago, tormond said:

agree. But the betraying has not been done on purpose, it has been done out of stupidity, selfishness, and like Catelyn Stark(Tully), she's a Tully through and through. The Tullys have been the tool the Starks's enemies have used to destroy them.

What betrayal are we talking about here? 

3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

We've seen everything Risto, it's an example of the "slow mind stuck in season one" mindset, no one can fix the world. For me, after what happened to Ed Sheeran, the fandom is going downhill, thank god the show is near its end

Oh, you know nothing, my sweet summer child. But, I do agree that show fans, for some reason, show even less tact and sometimes reason in discussing Sansa. I thought calling a Lannister was terrible, but calling her by her rapist's name trumps everything.

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In the show, Sansa is given a choice:  ride back to the Vale or ride to Winterfell and marry Ramsay.  LF doesn't threaten her or force her.  He makes an appeal that she should 'do something' and stop running and marry for revenge and so she chooses to go to WF and marry Ramsay.  People somehow take from that the idea that she was forced into marriage because LF wouldn't have taken her back to the Vale, but this is the audience inventing an excuse for bad plotting by the show where characters do stupid things because the plot demands it.  

This is actually very different from her forced marriage to Tyrion, where she was given no choice in the matter.

 

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14 hours ago, Risto said:

What betrayal are we talking about here? 

Oh, you know nothing, my sweet summer child. But, I do agree that show fans, for some reason, show even less tact and sometimes reason in discussing Sansa. I thought calling a Lannister was terrible, but calling her by her rapist's name trumps everything.

You have this almost as backwards as it gets. Before the show hardly anyone these delusions about "Sansa's story"  They may have grown to pity her but there was no notion that she was destined for any great things.  She was established as one of the stories villains early on and her entire existence since has tied to the wrong side.  GRRM commented that Stannis was among the righteous because he abandoned the political games and sailed north to confront the real threat.  The most Sansa is capable of is taking part in the political games that are the purvey of the stories minor villains, which is more or less where she's always been positioned. 

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9 minutes ago, lomiller said:

The most Sansa is capable of is taking part in the political games

Nothing new in that statement, it is maybe the most ancient statement in the history of GOT, we know that since 1998, her direwolf died so no magic and GRRM made her a pairing with LF

"Minor" and "Delusions", in every fandom of GOT, you will find some people accusing the other to be delusional about their supposedly favourite "minor" character, those types of discussions are a waste of time, enjoying stories and characters are the goal and sooner or later the show will end and everybody will go home

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12 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

In the show, Sansa is given a choice:  ride back to the Vale or ride to Winterfell and marry Ramsay.  LF doesn't threaten her or force her.  He makes an appeal that she should 'do something' and stop running and marry for revenge and so she chooses to go to WF and marry Ramsay.  People somehow take from that the idea that she was forced into marriage because LF wouldn't have taken her back to the Vale, but this is the audience inventing an excuse for bad plotting by the show where characters do stupid things because the plot demands it.  

This is actually very different from her forced marriage to Tyrion, where she was given no choice in the matter.

 

My take on that was that little finger manipulated her and knew how to make her do it even though he didn't. He basically made it sound like If your do this you can avenge your family if you don't your weak. I am oversimplying it but sansa at that point would have done anything he asked of her

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4 hours ago, lomiller said:

You have this almost as backwards as it gets. Before the show hardly anyone these delusions about "Sansa's story"  They may have grown to pity her but there was no notion that she was destined for any great things.  She was established as one of the stories villains early on and her entire existence since has tied to the wrong side.  GRRM commented that Stannis was among the righteous because he abandoned the political games and sailed north to confront the real threat.  The most Sansa is capable of is taking part in the political games that are the purvey of the stories minor villains, which is more or less where she's always been positioned. 

Actually, that is wrong. Just on this forum, you have long-standing threads with many in-depth analysis of her storyarc. Many have argued that Sansa is on the road of becoming player. Not to mention that she is, in the books, in the Vale, the only untouched kingdom with great food which has already been made a significant factor (in aDWD, Jon considers asking Lysa for help).

As for Sansa being involved in political games, I don't understand how anyone can say that is a minor part of the story. Politics is what is going to be crucial in uniting the kingdoms against the common threat. By taking down LF, she will help the cause as this is also the story of world changing. LF is one of the greatest political villains, and he needs to be taken down. Just like in the show, Sansa is destined to clash with him, which will help Jon fight the battles with the Others. In this story, politics is inseparable with the doomsday that is coming. And Sansa is one of the main protagonists whose story is involved in it.

4 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

"Minor" and "Delusions", in every fandom of GOT, you will find some people accusing the other to be delusional about their supposedly favourite "minor" character, those types of discussions are a waste of time, enjoying stories and characters are the goal and sooner or later the show will end and everybody will go home

Except Sansa is not a minor character (she is actually one of 6 main characters) and politics is not just a side story. Not in ASOIAF.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Risto said:

Except Sansa is not a minor character (she is actually one of 6 main characters) and politics is not just a side story. Not in ASOIAF.

I know, I was just responding to him accusing people to be delusional about the fact that Sansa was a major character, the dude have his mind stuck in season 1

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3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I know, I was just responding to him accusing people to be delusional about the fact that Sansa was a major character, the dude have his mind stuck in season 1

Yeah, I got that... I was just adding to the reply. 

 

20 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

In the show, Sansa is given a choice:  ride back to the Vale or ride to Winterfell and marry Ramsay.  LF doesn't threaten her or force her.  He makes an appeal that she should 'do something' and stop running and marry for revenge and so she chooses to go to WF and marry Ramsay.  People somehow take from that the idea that she was forced into marriage because LF wouldn't have taken her back to the Vale, but this is the audience inventing an excuse for bad plotting by the show where characters do stupid things because the plot demands it.  

This is actually very different from her forced marriage to Tyrion, where she was given no choice in the matter.

 

I don't think she was forced to that marriage. I just think it was one of the worst writing mistakes I have seen in a while. 

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I think that with Jon temporarily removing himself from the North opens the door for Baelish to ask for Sansa's hand in marriage. She has rebuffed him previously, but she's been undergoing obvious inner struggles as well as growing as a person. The prospect of uniting Winterfell and the Vale may not be such a bad one. Jon may be destined to go rule King's Landing, which would leave Sansa and LF as the ruling couple in the North.

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14 hours ago, Risto said:

As for Sansa being involved in political games, I don't understand how anyone can say that is a minor part of the story. Politics is what is going to be crucial in uniting the kingdoms against the common threat.

You are missing a pretty good story.  Had you been paying attention you'd realize that the series is built up around the heroes uniting the kingdoms by crushing the people dividing it with their political games.  The political games themselves are merely an obstacle that needs to be removed before uniting against the real threat

Edited by lomiller

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18 minutes ago, lomiller said:

You are missing a pretty good story.  Had you been paying attention you'd realize that the series is built up around the heroes uniting the kingdoms by crushing the people dividing it with their political games.  The political games themselves are merely an obstacle that needs to be removed before uniting against the real threat

Well, I am rather sure I am not missing anything. And if you think that in the books or in the show, a war against Others can be waged without Sansa, you may be the one missing something. Sansa, just like all the main protagonists has a role to play. She may not ride a dragon or be a commander in chief, but that doesn't mean she has no role to play.

As for uniting kingdoms, that is also a political game. Politics is inseparable part of this story and may be crucial in survival of Westerosi. 

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23 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa, just like all the main protagonists has a role to play. She may not ride a dragon or be a commander in chief, but that doesn't mean she has no role to play.

As for uniting kingdoms, that is also a political game. Politics is inseparable part of this story and may be crucial in survival of Westerosi. 

Sansa isn't a protagonist at all, she was created as an antagonist, she was introduced as an antagonist and when she's done anything at all she's functioned as an antagonist. 

Sure she has a role.  Every character GRRM created no matter how minor has a role in the story.  In the show it's becoming pretty clear that her role is to loose the North.  We know the North is lost because the battle against the Others plays out in the Riverlands.  With only 2 shorted seasons left that has to happen as soon as the end of this season, and who do we see in charge of the North?  None other than Sansa, long time antagonist who betrayed her own family.  What is she doing?  Undercutting Jon's attempts to unify the forces opposing the Others. 

23 minutes ago, Risto said:

 

As for uniting kingdoms, that is also a political game. Politics is inseparable part of this story and may be crucial in survival of Westerosi. 

 

Politics is what created most of the problems to begin with.  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. 

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1 hour ago, lomiller said:

Sansa isn't a protagonist at all, she was created as an antagonist, she was introduced as an antagonist and when she's done anything at all she's functioned as an antagonist. 

Sure she has a role.  Every character GRRM created no matter how minor has a role in the story.  In the show it's becoming pretty clear that her role is to loose the North.  We know the North is lost because the battle against the Others plays out in the Riverlands.  With only 2 shorted seasons left that has to happen as soon as the end of this season, and who do we see in charge of the North?  None other than Sansa, long time antagonist who betrayed her own family.  What is she doing?  Undercutting Jon's attempts to unify the forces opposing the Others. 

 

Politics is what created most of the problems to begin with.  As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. 

Oh come on, she was a child and she has clearly learnt from her mistakes, she cares about her family and she's just trying to help Jon. (I'm not trying to undermine you!) Are we watching the same show? This is season seven, not one. 

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9 minutes ago, lomiller said:

Sansa isn't a protagonist at all, she was created as an antagonist, she was introduced as an antagonist and when she's done anything at all she's functioned as an antagonist. 

Take it then with GRRM. He has specifically named 6 characters as protagonists - Jon, Dany, Tyrion and three Stark children. This is a coss-generational saga and Sansa fits into the mold of a hero growing up and changing the world while doing so. 

She has never been an antagonist, she is not written as an antagonist and reading her as such is complete dosregard for Martin's intentions and writing itself.

13 minutes ago, lomiller said:

Sure she has a role.  Every character GRRM created no matter how minor has a role in the story.  In the show it's becoming pretty clear that her role is to loose the North.  We know the North is lost because the battle against the Others plays out in the Riverlands.  With only 2 shorted seasons left that has to happen as soon as the end of this season, and who do we see in charge of the North?  None other than Sansa, long time antagonist who betrayed her own family.  What is she doing?  Undercutting Jon's attempts to unify the forces opposing the Others. 

When did Sansa betray her family in the show?  I also find your view on her conversations with Jon as undermining his attempts as in complete opposition with everything we know about her character and what is said in the show and of course, the way it is said. Her reactions to his decisions are normal for someone who cares about family. Her opposition to his decision to go to Dragonstone is simply her caring about him. It would be far worse if she told him "Go ahead and who knows what may happen there. She expressed her concerns, concerns every Northern and Vale lord had. In this episode, whenever she was speaking, entire room agreed with her. 

12 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Oh come on, she was a child and she has clearly learnt from her mistakes, she cares about her family and she's just trying to help Jon. (I'm not trying to undermine you!) Are we watching the same show? This is season seven, not one. 

Not even in Season 1 she was against her family. She begged for Ned's life in front of entire court and was forced to write a letter to Robb. She was a child surrounded by grownups who were much better in the game than she was (or well, her father).

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On 31. 7. 2017 at 1:29 AM, lomiller said:

Sansa isn't a protagonist at all, she was created as an antagonist, she was introduced as an antagonist and when she's done anything at all she's functioned as an antagonist. 

Of course she is not an antagonist. You need to take a batter look at the real antagonists of the story, she is nowhere next to them. She has flaws, like everyone else, but that doesn't make her a villain. Most of the show, she was a victim, a lot of the subtle agenda she has in the books has been taken away from her, but now she's coming into her own and she is struggling with the way the past traumata have influenced her. She doesn't have it in her to be truly evil.

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I don't get all the complaints about false tension between Jon and Sansa. They're both unreasonable and imperfect people, and this is how they express their imperfect way of communicating with eachother.

It's like when people complain that Sansa is inconsistent. No, she's nuanced. My point is this is WHO the characters are. Just like real people, they're messy, hypocritical at times, and rarely communicate their ideas effectively.

This is some good writing right here.

Edited by ThePukwudgie

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