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Sand Snakes - Dorne

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15 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

 

And that bolded part is an interesting idea. I suppose that a true one. It'd be really interesting to have the scrapped scripts.

yes, I'm really curious about exactly how much was changed as a result.  It's clear they had much bigger plans for the Sand Snakes as the show's Dorne storyline centered around them to begin with.  The books also built them up as a bit of a major threat with them being dispatched around the 7 Kingdoms to do various things.

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Everytime I think of Dorne it makes my blood boil.


Book Doran: “You cannot seriously intend to send Trystane and Myrcella to King’s Landing,” Obara said as she was pushing...“Do you take me for a fool, Obara?” The prince sighed. “There is much you do not know. Things best not discussed here, where anyone can hear. If you hold your tongue, I may enlighten you.”

Show Doran: Trystane, go sit on the Small Council with the crazy woman.

Book Sand Snakes on the potential assassination of Trystane: “Seven save us,” whispered Tyene. “Trystane? Why?” “The woman must be mad,” Obara said. “He’s just a boy.”

Show Sand Snakes:  Waaaa I wanna kill him, you bitch you stole my kill.


Just such blatant character assassination for nothing.  Gross.

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As much as I hate Dorne (along with everyone else, apparently), I see potential in an episode centered around the fact that Dorne is up for grabs (especially now that it wouldn't have sand snakes).

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1 hour ago, Eddard the Builder said:

Everytime I think of Dorne it makes my blood boil.


Book Doran: “You cannot seriously intend to send Trystane and Myrcella to King’s Landing,” Obara said as she was pushing...“Do you take me for a fool, Obara?” The prince sighed. “There is much you do not know. Things best not discussed here, where anyone can hear. If you hold your tongue, I may enlighten you.”

Show Doran: Trystane, go sit on the Small Council with the crazy woman.

Book Sand Snakes on the potential assassination of Trystane: “Seven save us,” whispered Tyene. “Trystane? Why?” “The woman must be mad,” Obara said. “He’s just a boy.”

Show Sand Snakes:  Waaaa I wanna kill him, you bitch you stole my kill.


Just such blatant character assassination for nothing.  Gross.

To be fair, that scene in the books is meant to highlight the Sand Snakes' hypocrisy. They're outraged at the idea of Cersei trying to kill Trystane, but Nym wanted to murder Tommen, Obara wanted to burn Oldtown to the ground and Tyene would've killed dozens of squires if not for how messy it would've been. 

They're murderous psychopaths in both the shows and the books.

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18 minutes ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

To be fair, that scene in the books is meant to highlight the Sand Snakes' hypocrisy. They're outraged at the idea of Cersei trying to kill Trystane, but Nym wanted to murder Tommen, Obara wanted to burn Oldtown to the ground and Tyene would've killed dozens of squires if not for how messy it would've been. 

They're murderous psychopaths in both the shows and the books.

 

I was more highlighting the fact that they were horrified at the thought of killing the young Prince of their own lineage.  Sure the Sandsnakes are psychopaths in the books to but to go as far as kinslaying the young prince it seems to be out of even what they'd do.

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20 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

yes, I'm really curious about exactly how much was changed as a result.  It's clear they had much bigger plans for the Sand Snakes as the show's Dorne storyline centered around them to begin with.  The books also built them up as a bit of a major threat with them being dispatched around the 7 Kingdoms to do various things.

And that's exactly the moment it went wrong. ;)

I like the book Snakes because a) they seem like they really have a plan and they're up to  something with one probably being in the Citadel and one going to KL as a septa, b ) they all have real personalities, they aren't one personality reduced to minimum and then Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to have three characters.

I suppose that if the show really wanted to include Dorne, they should have used Doran as the central character. The Sand Snakes could be used as a kind of bodyguards for him who might want to revenge Oberyn but they would remain loyal to Doran. They could use Quentyn too. I'm not sure about Arianne because so far he role in the books is rather unclear, she hasn't really did anything so far. However, three angry teen or so girls playing with weapons could never work tbh.

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4 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

And that's exactly the moment it went wrong. ;)

I like the book Snakes because a) they seem like they really have a plan and they're up to  something with one probably being in the Citadel and one going to KL as a septa, b ) they all have real personalities, they aren't one personality reduced to minimum and then Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to have three characters.

I suppose that if the show really wanted to include Dorne, they should have used Doran as the central character. The Sand Snakes could be used as a kind of bodyguards for him who might want to revenge Oberyn but they would remain loyal to Doran. They could use Quentyn too. I'm not sure about Arianne because so far he role in the books is rather unclear, she hasn't really did anything so far. However, three angry teen or so girls playing with weapons could never work tbh.

I'm sort of torn about where Dorne went wrong in the show, because I think Dorne is also the worst writing in GRRM's books, although an improvement over the show for sure.  I dislike the Book Snakes for much the same reason as the Show Snakes- they seem more like caricatures than real characters.  

But yeah, I think I would have to agree that the show screwed up by not centralizing Doran more.   One thing the book had in Dorne to ground the ridiculousness of the Snakes was Doran and Ellaria.  I will never understand why the show hired a good actor like Siddig to play Doran and then entirely neutered the character and gave Siddig nothing to do.  I will never understand why they cut out the "Fire and Blood..I am the grass that hides the snake" moment which was badass.  And I will never understand why they changed Ellaria's character completely and took away her great speech about the futility of revenge.  

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42 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I'm sort of torn about where Dorne went wrong in the show, because I think Dorne is also the worst writing in GRRM's books, although an improvement over the show for sure.  I dislike the Book Snakes for much the same reason as the Show Snakes- they seem more like caricatures than real characters.  

But yeah, I think I would have to agree that the show screwed up by not centralizing Doran more.   One thing the book had in Dorne to ground the ridiculousness of the Snakes was Doran and Ellaria.  I will never understand why the show hired a good actor like Siddig to play Doran and then entirely neutered the character and gave Siddig nothing to do.  I will never understand why they cut out the "Fire and Blood..I am the grass that hides the snake" moment which was badass.  And I will never understand why they changed Ellaria's character completely and took away her great speech about the futility of revenge.  

They should have left Dorne off the show like they were going to initially.  

If they had to have Dorne it should have been organized around Indira Varma and Siddig....two actors who can act and who could also put over some of the bad dialogue and ground the storyline.  Killing off Siddig and keeping the Spice Girls alive was pure insanity.  It should have been the opposite.  But, I'm also no fan of any aspect of Dorne outside of the Red Viper and the general culture in the books either. Hated the snakes, hate Arianne, hate Doran and his no plans.  But, in the show, they could have given over whatever parts of Aegon's story they wanted to Doran/Trystane/Myrcella whatever.  

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2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I'm sort of torn about where Dorne went wrong in the show, because I think Dorne is also the worst writing in GRRM's books, although an improvement over the show for sure.  I dislike the Book Snakes for much the same reason as the Show Snakes- they seem more like caricatures than real characters.  

But yeah, I think I would have to agree that the show screwed up by not centralizing Doran more.   One thing the book had in Dorne to ground the ridiculousness of the Snakes was Doran and Ellaria.  I will never understand why the show hired a good actor like Siddig to play Doran and then entirely neutered the character and gave Siddig nothing to do.  I will never understand why they cut out the "Fire and Blood..I am the grass that hides the snake" moment which was badass.  And I will never understand why they changed Ellaria's character completely and took away her great speech about the futility of revenge.  

 

I think that the TV show writers don't understand that women can be strong without being vicious, killers, 'badass' warriors/assassins, or all of the above.  Even non-violent Margaery Tyrell was a failure; they alternate Sansa between being a victim and a supposed political mastermind; and Catelyn was a strong woman who managed to make a few huge mistakes.  I think they believe that a woman who had a conscience, a rational mind in the wake of tragedy, and used both to advocate for peace to end a multi-generational feud would bore the show fans.  Of course, what they twisted TV-Ellaria's character into was such an improvement!?! 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They should have left Dorne off the show like they were going to initially.  

If they had to have Dorne it should have been organized around Indira Varma and Siddig....two actors who can act and who could also put over some of the bad dialogue and ground the storyline.  Killing off Siddig and keeping the Spice Girls alive was pure insanity.  It should have been the opposite.  But, I'm also no fan of any aspect of Dorne outside of the Red Viper and the general culture in the books either. Hated the snakes, hate Arianne, hate Doran and his no plans.  But, in the show, they could have given over whatever parts of Aegon's story they wanted to Doran/Trystane/Myrcella whatever.  

I completely agree.  I was trying to be nice about some of the book moments in Dorne in the books lol- overall just hated those chapters more than any other GRRM has written in ASOIAF.

I don't really understand what changed regarding Dorne being on the show, since especially with hindsight it seems clear the show never had much of a plan/use for Dorne anyway, even before the Sandsnakes flopped like they did and the plans changed.  I wonder if any of last season was changed as a result too- it seemed like the Snakes killing off Siddig was a "we give up" throwing in the towel moment but maybe that was the plan all along.

42 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I think that the TV show writers don't understand that women can be strong without being vicious, killers, 'badass' warriors/assassins, or all of the above.  Even non-violent Margaery Tyrell was a failure; they alternate Sansa between being a victim and a supposed political mastermind; and Catelyn was a strong woman who managed to make a few huge mistakes.  I think they believe that a woman who had a conscience, a rational mind in the wake of tragedy, and used both to advocate for peace to end a multi-generational feud would bore the show fans.  Of course, what they twisted TV-Ellaria's character into was such an improvement!?! 

I agree with everything you said except for Margs Tyrell, who to me was one of the standouts on the show and came across as strong despite not being any of those things.  

.  

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Does anyone think Arrianne might still come in? Or the Daynes? I really like Arianne and I thought she was perfect for the show. Anyone know why she was cut?

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2 hours ago, Crona said:

Does anyone think Arrianne might still come in? Or the Daynes? I really like Arianne and I thought she was perfect for the show. Anyone know why she was cut?

Arthur Dayne came up at the Tower of Joy scenes that Bran saw (Young Ned was fighting him), it's very unlikely Ashara would be mentioned and Gerald Dayne is too late to come in, as is Arianne- they can't just introduce a major character and a true heir to Dorne at this point, she was probably merged with Ellaria/Snakes to streamline the series cast, in the same way Willis/Garlan Tyrell were cut from the show, and Edmure was put on a bus. Basically, both Dorne and the Reach were butchered by the show to make way for more drama and sexy scenes. I assume gouty old Doran making speeches about being the grass that hides the snake are less of an attraction than Dornish invasion of Irons Pants of Yara.

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