Most one-sided marriages?

[Lord Vance II]

Which marriage in the series provided the biggest come-up for one side? I'm going to leave out nobles marrying commoners (like Aegon's kids). 

To me the most obvious are Emmon Frey to Genna Lannister and Jeyne Westerling to Robb Stark. The former was so one-sided a child Tywin raised hell against it. And the later was a disastrous mistake. 

[TMIFairy]

I disagree about the former being "lop-sided".

It was marriage between members of a Great House on one and the arguably 2nd Lordly House of the Riverlands on the other.

An absolutely ordinary match in my opinion.

Tywin kicked up a stink because:

- Walder was pushy and Tytos gave the impression of succumbing to bulling, instead of making a thought out match;

- Genna was seven!!! at that time;

- Tywin is Tywin and sees slights to the Lannister's everywhere.

 

 

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I disagree about the former being "lop-sided".

It was marriage between members of a Great House on one and the arguably 2nd Lordly House of the Riverlands on the other.

An absolutely ordinary match in my opinion.

Tywin kicked up a stink because:

- Walder was pushy and Tytos gave the impression of succumbing to bulling, instead of making a thought out match;

- Genna was seven!!! at that time;

- Tywin is Tywin and sees slights to the Lannister's everywhere.

 

 

I disagree. The lioness was quite a catch especially at a time when there were barely any noble women (of her stature) available. Tytos could have easily married Genna to Lord Tully. Instead Tytos married her to a Frey (and a second born)

What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. 

[TMIFairy]

Good point about Emmon being 2nd born.

Still not an "outrageous" mismatch in my book.

[cpg2016]

47 minutes ago, devilish said:

I disagree. The lioness was quite a catch especially at a time when there were barely any noble women (of her stature) available. Tytos could have easily married Genna to Lord Tully. Instead Tytos married her to a Frey (and a second born)

What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. 

Firstly, the Frey's are wealthy but not blue-blooded, which is a HUGE deal and likely the reason Tywin got pissed.  Same as when Littlefinger is telling Sansa about the Gulltown Arryn's - they married merchants, which means they're rich, but "dilutes" their blood.  The Spicers are basically upjumped merchants.  Marrying a commoner reverbrates down through many of your descendants.

Having royal blood, even thousands of years back, is considered important.  Especially for House Lannister, which has no need of further wealth, money would place a distant second to lineage.  That is why Tywin got so upset (though to be honest, he'd probably be upset with just about anyone short of a royal match).

And yes Tywin is a huge hypocrite, but of course the difference is that he loves his cousin, and more importantly, she's a Lannister, despite not being in the main line of inheritance.  Given Tywin and his kids' attitude towards their family and others, its clear that they consider being a Lannister the acme of being a human, with other nobles lesser and commoners subhhuman.  With that kind of attitude, it's no surprise he views even a Lannister of a second or third son as a good match.

[cpg2016]

47 minutes ago, devilish said:

I disagree. The lioness was quite a catch especially at a time when there were barely any noble women (of her stature) available. Tytos could have easily married Genna to Lord Tully. Instead Tytos married her to a Frey (and a second born)

What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. 

Firstly, the Frey's are wealthy but not blue-blooded, which is a HUGE deal and likely the reason Tywin got pissed.  Same as when Littlefinger is telling Sansa about the Gulltown Arryn's - they married merchants, which means they're rich, but "dilutes" their blood.  The Spicers are basically upjumped merchants.  Marrying a commoner reverbrates down through many of your descendants.

Having royal blood, even thousands of years back, is considered important.  Especially for House Lannister, which has no need of further wealth, money would place a distant second to lineage.  That is why Tywin got so upset (though to be honest, he'd probably be upset with just about anyone short of a royal match).

And yes Tywin is a huge hypocrite, but of course the difference is that he loves his cousin, and more importantly, she's a Lannister, despite not being in the main line of inheritance.  Given Tywin and his kids' attitude towards their family and others, its clear that they consider being a Lannister the acme of being a human, with other nobles lesser and commoners subhhuman.  With that kind of attitude, it's no surprise he views even a Lannister of a second or third son as a good match.

[cpg2016]

47 minutes ago, devilish said:

I disagree. The lioness was quite a catch especially at a time when there were barely any noble women (of her stature) available. Tytos could have easily married Genna to Lord Tully. Instead Tytos married her to a Frey (and a second born)

What fascinates me though is Tywin hypocrisy. His cousin Joanna was way below his ranking and she brought nothing to the table apart from her beauty. 

Firstly, the Frey's are wealthy but not blue-blooded, which is a HUGE deal and likely the reason Tywin got pissed.  Same as when Littlefinger is telling Sansa about the Gulltown Arryn's - they married merchants, which means they're rich, but "dilutes" their blood.  The Spicers are basically upjumped merchants.  Marrying a commoner reverbrates down through many of your descendants.

Having royal blood, even thousands of years back, is considered important.  Especially for House Lannister, which has no need of further wealth, money would place a distant second to lineage.  That is why Tywin got so upset (though to be honest, he'd probably be upset with just about anyone short of a royal match).

And yes Tywin is a huge hypocrite, but of course the difference is that he loves his cousin, and more importantly, she's a Lannister, despite not being in the main line of inheritance.  Given Tywin and his kids' attitude towards their family and others, its clear that they consider being a Lannister the acme of being a human, with other nobles lesser and commoners subhhuman.  With that kind of attitude, it's no surprise he views even a Lannister of a second or third son as a good match.

[Lord Vance II]

50 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Still not an "outrageous" mismatch in my book.

It's just one that comes to mind as its blasted in our faces in the books. I didn't say outrageous, just lop-sided. Gemma should have at least deserved a first-born.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Firstly, the Frey's are wealthy but not blue-blooded, which is a HUGE deal and likely the reason Tywin got pissed.  Same as when Littlefinger is telling Sansa about the Gulltown Arryn's - they married merchants, which means they're rich, but "dilutes" their blood.  The Spicers are basically upjumped merchants.  Marrying a commoner reverbrates down through many of your descendants.

Having royal blood, even thousands of years back, is considered important.  Especially for House Lannister, which has no need of further wealth, money would place a distant second to lineage.  That is why Tywin got so upset (though to be honest, he'd probably be upset with just about anyone short of a royal match).

And yes Tywin is a huge hypocrite, but of course the difference is that he loves his cousin, and more importantly, she's a Lannister, despite not being in the main line of inheritance.  Given Tywin and his kids' attitude towards their family and others, its clear that they consider being a Lannister the acme of being a human, with other nobles lesser and commoners subhhuman.  With that kind of attitude, it's no surprise he views even a Lannister of a second or third son as a good match.

I think that Tywin’s concerns were

a-    The Lannisters were of a higher nobility standing then the Freys. The former were wardens of the west with a standing army who could easily invade the Riverlands. The latter weren’t even LPs of the Riverlands
b-    The Freys were great soldiers (ex the Tarlys), they weren’t great at sea (Ex Redywnes) and they barely had a claim for anything. They only exceled in one thing ie wealth. The Lannisters were far richer than them
c-    The twins held no military significance for the Lannisters whatsoever. Tywin was never going to send armies that far north. Ironically he did need the Freys at one point and…. That leads us to D
d-    Walder wasn’t a reliable person. Till then he had done nothing devious enough to justify contempt, however his ‘obsession’ to the gentle sex made it very difficult for the Freys to keep up to their promise. For example what would happen if House Royce fought against House Swann? Will Walder side to his first wife’s family or would he side to the second wife’s family? What happens if Walder’s daughter ended up marrying into a powerful rival family to that of the Lannisters? (ex the Starks). Can Tywin rely on him?
e-    Walder proposed a marriage between Genna and his second son. Emmon would never inherit the twins. Which leads us to F
f-    There were simply too many Freys around. Sure the old man loved them all. However once Walder kicks the bucket than his successor will surely want to clear his house and stop feeding so many mouths, one way or another. Maybe that’s the reason why Tywin allowed his sister to remain safely in CR. 

Regarding your second comment. I think Tywin think that law apply to everybody apart from him. He does what he pleases
 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Everyone has already said what needed to be said, but

1 hour ago, devilish said:

I think that Tywin’s concerns were

a-    The Lannisters were of a higher nobility standing then the Freys. The former were wardens of the west with a standing army who could easily invade the Riverlands. The latter weren’t even LPs of the Riverlands
b-    The Freys were great soldiers (ex the Tarlys), they weren’t great at sea (Ex Redywnes) and they barely had a claim for anything. They only exceled in one thing ie wealth. The Lannisters were far richer than them
c-    The twins held no military significance for the Lannisters whatsoever. Tywin was never going to send armies that far north. Ironically he did need the Freys at one point and…. That leads us to D
d-    Walder wasn’t a reliable person. Till then he had done nothing devious enough to justify contempt, however his ‘obsession’ to the gentle sex made it very difficult for the Freys to keep up to their promise. For example what would happen if House Royce fought against House Swann? Will Walder side to his first wife’s family or would he side to the second wife’s family? What happens if Walder’s daughter ended up marrying into a powerful rival family to that of the Lannisters? (ex the Starks). Can Tywin rely on him?
e-    Walder proposed a marriage between Genna and his second son. Emmon would never inherit the twins. Which leads us to F
f-    There were simply too many Freys around. Sure the old man loved them all. However once Walder kicks the bucket than his successor will surely want to clear his house and stop feeding so many mouths, one way or another. Maybe that’s the reason why Tywin allowed his sister to remain safely in CR. 

Regarding your second comment. I think Tywin think that law apply to everybody apart from him. He does what he pleases
 

pretty much the bolded part; Walder Frey simply has far to many descendants to be reliable and the fact that Genna wasn't going to marry his eldest son makes it all the more complicated. Since now Black Walder stands a chance to inherit, many Freys will find themselves in danger of being kicked out and receiving nothing or they might suffer "accidents".

Genna, her children and grandchildren, Fat Walda, Gatehouse Ami and the relatives that they brought with them to their new castles are lucky, but the rest of the Frey are screwed (maybe not Fair Walda, if she can become Black Walder's mistress).

Edit:

In regards to what marriage is rather one-sided, I would say the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia.

Elia was known to be physically weak and she only gave Rhaegar two children, one boy and one girl. If we are to look at it dynastically, this is rather bad as a queen needs to give the king many healthy heirs (although there has to be a limit). Elia almost died giving birth and two children was all she could muster. Assumingthat Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna and Robert's Rebellion never happened, it would've been disasterous if Rhaenys and/or Aegon were to die of natural causes.

Also, Dorne:

Dorne is by far the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms and they are thusly also weaker, military-wise, and have to resort to using guerilla tactics, which are useful in their own lands, but can prove to be diffult in other regions.

Dornishmen are also not very-well liked and Rhaegar taking a Dornish wife could present problems to his heirs. Elia Martell is also a Salty-Dornishman and she gave birth to one daughter who looked just like her. The other Seven Kingdoms are not very well known to be very open to other races of people, with many people disliking Dornishmen and Summer Islanders.

[TMIFairy]

Delena Florent and Ser Hosman Norcross.

Amerei Frey and Ser Pate.

Frey again - Walder "The Original" and Joyeuse Erenford

Lord Baelish and Lysa Arryn nee Tully?

Lord Vance - OK, I agree that Genna-Emmon is lopsided. But in my eyes definitely not a contender for the "most one sided marriage" trophy

 

 

[TMIFairy]

double post - can be deleted

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Everyone has already said what needed to be said, but

pretty much the bolded part; Walder Frey simply has far to many descendants to be reliable and the fact that Genna wasn't going to marry his eldest son makes it all the more complicated. Since now Black Walder stands a chance to inherit, many Freys will find themselves in danger of being kicked out and receiving nothing or they might suffer "accidents".

Genna, her children and grandchildren, Fat Walda, Gatehouse Ami and the relatives that they brought with them to their new castles are lucky, but the rest of the Frey are screwed (maybe not Fair Walda, if she can become Black Walder's mistress).

Edit:

In regards to what marriage is rather one-sided, I would say the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia.

Elia was known to be physically weak and she only gave Rhaegar two children, one boy and one girl. If we are to look at it dynastically, this is rather bad as a queen needs to give the king many healthy heirs (although there has to be a limit). Elia almost died giving birth and two children was all she could muster. Assumingthat Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna and Robert's Rebellion never happened, it would've been disasterous if Rhaenys and/or Aegon were to die of natural causes.

Also, Dorne:

Dorne is by far the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms and they are thusly also weaker, military-wise, and have to resort to using guerilla tactics, which are useful in their own lands, but can prove to be diffult in other regions.

Dornishmen are also not very-well liked and Rhaegar taking a Dornish wife could present problems to his heirs. Elia Martell is also a Salty-Dornishman and she gave birth to one daughter who looked just like her. The other Seven Kingdoms are not very well known to be very open to other races of people, with many people disliking Dornishmen and Summer Islanders.

I think Aerys married Rhaegar to the Martells to avoid having his son becoming stronger then he is. Dorne is a bit like the North. Their army is beatable but really don't want to piss them off enough for them to rebel.

My list of 1 sided marriages

a- Tywin and Joanna
b- Aerys and Rhaella
c- Stannis and Selyse
d- Doran and Mellario
e- Rickard and Marna

[Makk]

Daenerys and Hizdar has to be up there. Hizdar was a conquered noble, who only has ties to a single city, and the only thing he could bring was a bit of wealth and an uneasy and accelerated peace. Meanwhile Daenerys was the warden of the only three dragons in the world, conqueror of multiple cities, cult figure of a weird religion, the last known Targareyn, and disputed heir to the Seven Kingdoms.

[The Bard of Banefort]

If I remember correctly, Edric Storm's mother, who was a Florent, married a landed knight, so I suppose he "married up."

Lynesse Hightower was way down the line of succession, but her house was much more powerful than her husband's, Jorah Mormont.

A Piper girl was married to Quellon Greyjoy, which was probably a big deal since he was one of the lords paramount and House Piper is nowhere near the most powerful House in their region.

A man from House Manwoody married Eleana Targaryen, and one of Egg's sisters likely married the lord of Tarth. 

As mentioned by others, Jeyne Westerling, Emmon Frey, and Petyr Baelish also married far above their station. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

I think Aerys married Rhaegar to the Martells to avoid having his son becoming stronger then he is. Dorne is a bit like the North. Their army is beatable but really don't want to piss them off enough for them to rebel.

My list of 1 sided marriages

a- Tywin and Joanna
b- Aerys and Rhaella
c- Stannis and Selyse
d- Doran and Mellario
e- Rickard and Marna

Not for nothing, but why Aerys and Rhaella? Is it because of the abuse?

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If I remember correctly, Edric Storm's mother, who was a Florent, married a landed knight, so I suppose he "married up."

 

This is the Delena Florent I mentioned. And the husband - Hosman Norcross - is of even lower than "landed knight" level - he was a household knight. In a way Delena was lucky - papa Florent turned down an offer of Tyrion Lannister's hand.

Think Arya married to Jory Cassel. Or Sansa to Sandor Clegane while Gregor lives/has heirs - simply ridiculous!

[WeKnowNothing]

20 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

In regards to what marriage is rather one-sided, I would say the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia.

Elia was known to be physically weak and she only gave Rhaegar two children, one boy and one girl. If we are to look at it dynastically, this is rather bad as a queen needs to give the king many healthy heirs (although there has to be a limit). Elia almost died giving birth and two children was all she could muster. Assumingthat Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna and Robert's Rebellion never happened, it would've been disasterous if Rhaenys and/or Aegon were to die of natural causes.

Also, Dorne:

Dorne is by far the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms and they are thusly also weaker, military-wise, and have to resort to using guerilla tactics, which are useful in their own lands, but can prove to be diffult in other regions.

Dornishmen are also not very-well liked and Rhaegar taking a Dornish wife could present problems to his heirs. Elia Martell is also a Salty-Dornishman and she gave birth to one daughter who looked just like her. The other Seven Kingdoms are not very well known to be very open to other races of people, with many people disliking Dornishmen and Summer Islanders.

Rhaegar should really have taken a second wife once Elia became barren after giving birth to Aegon. Having only one son is very bad for medieval times - to ensure the succession, a man must have atleast 2-3 sons. Because of the male preference of monarchs after the dance of dragons, Rhaenys would not be in the line of succession - so Viserys would likely have been Aegons heir if Aegon died without sons of his own. So common sense would tell Rhaegar to take a second wife, who will give you another son or two, who would stand behind Aegon in the line of succession. Of course, if he did marry Lyanna, then his child with her would be his last surviving heir. 

[WeKnowNothing]

18 hours ago, devilish said:

I think Aerys married Rhaegar to the Martells to avoid having his son becoming stronger then he is. Dorne is a bit like the North. Their army is beatable but really don't want to piss them off enough for them to rebel.

My list of 1 sided marriages

a- Tywin and Joanna
b- Aerys and Rhaella
c- Stannis and Selyse
d- Doran and Mellario
e- Rickard and Marna

Who are Rickard and Marna again? I just have to ask, It's escaped me at the moment.

[TMIFairy]

14 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Rhaegar should really have taken a second wife once Elia became barren after giving birth to Aegon.

Tough luck - no polygny, sorry.

There is Viserys as the spare to Aegon. He will be able to marry and reproduce in 6-8 years time. So no cause for panic for 10 years or more.

Both Rheagar and Viserys can be put out to stud to sire (hopefully male)  bastards who, if need be, can be legitimised. If RLJ is true, Rheagar has already embarked on such a quest ...

Plus there is Rheanys.

And finally - the Baratheons ...