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Greywater-Watch

A résumé of disappointment

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My disappointment after the 2nd episode of season 7 is great. I admit favoring the books, though I am ready to accept that she show has gone its own way. But within the show (which has not been too bad until end of season 6, despite a steady drop in quality since season 4) certain standards have to be obeyed: It is the coherence,  the inner logic of the story and the characters (their way of thinking, acting). And that logic has been abandoned in the first two episodes of season 7 to an extent I have not seen before within the story. By the way, accompanied with a cutting of the scenes that is in great parts more than questionable, choking the rhythm of the films.

But let me explain in some details my main observatins concerning the lack of inner logic.

 

  • Dragonstone

    • Tyrion

      • What has become of that man? He was acted nicely by P. Dinklage until the end of Season 6 (well, in fact the last episodes of season 6 already showed a cockless Tyrion). Now he is reduced to end each of his scenes with a sheepishly devotional look at Daenerys

      • He has shown to be a good strategist in the past. He knew from Theon’s and Yara’s visit to Mereen that Euron planned to build a huge fleet. Knowing that Cersei would be desperate to find allies (only very few possibilities left), he must have taken Euron as a possible ally for Cersei into account.

    • Daenerys

      • She looks all but Queenly. She appears insecure. Emilia Clarke is no great actress (we know that), but she should have been given a script showing her less unconfident. She has survived all perils in Essos taking many of her crucial decisions on her own, now she seems only able to repeat what Tyrion phrases out before (lots of talk of not being like her father and not wishing to be Queen of ashes).

      • Does she have no desire to explore the country she waited to see for her whole life  on the back of her dragon?

    • Dragons: Seemingly there is no reflection at all about their value within her counsel or by herself

    1. It is Daenerys “trade mark”, she is the Dragon Queeen => the dragons have to be seen/shown

    2. They inspire fear => the dragons have to be seen/shown

    3. An unmatched military advantage as it allows scouting (military reconnaissance) over vast areas

    4. A huge weapon (breathing fire, hard to kill, hard to attack while in the air)

    • If Daenerys wants to avoid being seen as Queen of ashes, she just has to limit the use of the fourth option, but the other three options she is free to use.

    • No discussion at all about a second or even third dragonrider

       

    • Varys

      • The spy master turns out as completely useless in his main profession

      • Apparently he has no knowledge of Jon being KOTN (which is not held secret and is the talk of Inns as even Hot Pie knows it; apart from that, this is old news deriving from end of season 6 and already known when Varys was in Dorne forging the alliance with Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell.)

      • No knowledge of forming alliance between Euron and Cersei, neither  of Euron’s fleet and last position; and an armada of 1.000 ships in the harbor of KL is not secretive

      • With Sands and especially Lady Olenna he has useful informants in Westeros, especially Olenna; if not that, what about his own network of spies? It worked out over long distances before (Esos to Westeros), and Varys had been just recently in Dorne to re-establish network

      • There was time enough to gather fresh information after arriving at Dragonstone

      • If he was near as capable as in the book, he would even have known about the crossbow that Qyburn constructed to bring the dragons down

  • Winterfell:

    • JON

      • He never put any effort to convince Northeners or Vale Lords of the existence of the army of the dead. He could easily have by asking a Wildling (e.g. Tormund) or a witness from the Night Watch to tell the story as well

      • Besides, Jon never gave or was asked an explanation how he  justified abandoning the Night Watch (we know that especially the North holds the vow to the Night watch sacred)

    • Littlefinger,

      • a major player in books as well as in the show until end of season 6

      • he plays a pitiful role now; having two scenes each in episode 1 and 2; one with some stupid, unclever talk, the other smirking in the background during gathering of Lords in Winterfell;

      • one of the most valuable councilors  for Jon (the by far best politician he has around him)  – he remains completely unused

      • never a thankful remark by Jon for saving him in the battle of bastards

      • If there is mistrust between Jon and Lord Baelish, it is too important not to be discussed openly

    • Davos

      • does nearly not talk at all (second most experienced politician Jon has around him) => a similar waste as Littlefinger.

    • Bran Stark

      • the probably most important source of information and help for Jon/Sansa and the whole North in general:

      • I take it for given that Bran  wants to rejoin his remaining family and that Dolorous Edd (acting Lord Commander of the Night Watch) tells him that he will find Jon at Winterfell as KOTN; even if Bran should already know by himself via his ability to look at the present at past through weirwoods

      • Even if we may assume that it takes him some time to come down from Castle Black to Winterfell (would have been nice to have seen him depart though): A bird with a letter from Castle Black to Winterfell (shorter distance to fly than e.g. from Oldtown or Dragonstone to Winterfell) is the minimum I expect to have arrived and mentioned by Sansa and/or Jon within episode 2

  • Kings Landing

    • Cersei lecturing the Lords of the Reach about defending Westeros from barbarians, but no one mentions concerns about her attempts to forge an alliance with the Ironborn? That is ridiculous, even for the show.

I have highlighted the points that really annoy me and that are inacceptable in my opinion, even for the show. As for Arya, Jaime and Samwell, Brienne, Tormund, Sansa: I can live with what they did in these two episodes.

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7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

  • Kings Landing

    • Cersei lecturing the Lords of the Reach about defending Westeros from barbarians, but no one mentions concerns about her attempts to forge an alliance with the Ironborn? That is ridiculous, even for the show.

I have highlighted the points that really annoy me and that are inacceptable in my opinion, even for the show. As for Arya, Jaime and Samwell, Brienne, Tormund, Sansa: I can live with what they did in these two episodes.

And Cersei saying that she is a protector of the realm (hello Sept?)and they should choose  her instead of Dany felt ridiculous.

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D&D completely destroyed Littlefinger character and the scene of Jon strangling him is pure fan service, why in the hell Littlefinger goes after Jon telling him that he loves Sansa and Cat and all the Cogman's stupid dialogue when Sansa became the wardeness of the north? it's totally illogical and out of his character

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And Cersei saying that she is a protector of the realm (hello Sept?)and they should choose  her instead of Dany felt ridiculous.

I was so annoyed by this, too! We never saw how people reacted to what Cersei did to the Sept. She murdered a ton of people in there and there were no consequences whatsoever. By this time around the lords and ladies of Westeros should be shaking their heads at her. What kind of shitty writing is this? 

Hi Randyll Tarly, why would you even want to protect the realm from eunuchs and savages when there's one savage right there in the capital. She blew up the Sept!!!! I was also annoyed when Jaime brought up Olenna Tyrell and mentioned to Randyll Tarly that she's a broken woman out for revenge. Well, who made that happen in the first place? CERSEI. UGH.

What is happening to this show.

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12 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

My disappointment after the 2nd episode of season 7 is great. I admit favoring the books, though I am ready to accept that she show has gone its own way. But within the show (which has not been too bad until end of season 6, despite a steady drop in quality since season 4) certain standards have to be obeyed: It is the coherence,  the inner logic of the story and the characters (their way of thinking, acting). And that logic has been abandoned in the first two episodes of season 7 to an extent I have not seen before within the story. By the way, accompanied with a cutting of the scenes that is in great parts more than questionable, choking the rhythm of the films.

But let me explain in some details my main observatins concerning the lack of inner logic.

 

  • Dragonstone

    • Tyrion

      • What has become of that man? He was acted nicely by P. Dinklage until the end of Season 6 (well, in fact the last episodes of season 6 already showed a cockless Tyrion). Now he is reduced to end each of his scenes with a sheepishly devotional look at Daenerys

      • He has shown to be a good strategist in the past. He knew from Theon’s and Yara’s visit to Mereen that Euron planned to build a huge fleet. Knowing that Cersei would be desperate to find allies (only very few possibilities left), he must have taken Euron as a possible ally for Cersei into account.

    • Daenerys

      • She looks all but Queenly. She appears insecure. Emilia Clarke is no great actress (we know that), but she should have been given a script showing her less unconfident. She has survived all perils in Essos taking many of her crucial decisions on her own, now she seems only able to repeat what Tyrion phrases out before (lots of talk of not being like her father and not wishing to be Queen of ashes).

      • Does she have no desire to explore the country she waited to see for her whole life  on the back of her dragon?

    • Dragons: Seemingly there is no reflection at all about their value within her counsel or by herself

    1. It is Daenerys “trade mark”, she is the Dragon Queeen => the dragons have to be seen/shown

    2. They inspire fear => the dragons have to be seen/shown

    3. An unmatched military advantage as it allows scouting (military reconnaissance) over vast areas

    4. A huge weapon (breathing fire, hard to kill, hard to attack while in the air)

    • If Daenerys wants to avoid being seen as Queen of ashes, she just has to limit the use of the fourth option, but the other three options she is free to use.

    • No discussion at all about a second or even third dragonrider

       

    • Varys

      • The spy master turns out as completely useless in his main profession

      • Apparently he has no knowledge of Jon being KOTN (which is not held secret and is the talk of Inns as even Hot Pie knows it; apart from that, this is old news deriving from end of season 6 and already known when Varys was in Dorne forging the alliance with Ellaria Sand and Olenna Tyrell.)

      • No knowledge of forming alliance between Euron and Cersei, neither  of Euron’s fleet and last position; and an armada of 1.000 ships in the harbor of KL is not secretive

      • With Sands and especially Lady Olenna he has useful informants in Westeros, especially Olenna; if not that, what about his own network of spies? It worked out over long distances before (Esos to Westeros), and Varys had been just recently in Dorne to re-establish network

      • There was time enough to gather fresh information after arriving at Dragonstone

      • If he was near as capable as in the book, he would even have known about the crossbow that Qyburn constructed to bring the dragons down

  • Winterfell:

    • JON

      • He never put any effort to convince Northeners or Vale Lords of the existence of the army of the dead. He could easily have by asking a Wildling (e.g. Tormund) or a witness from the Night Watch to tell the story as well

      • Besides, Jon never gave or was asked an explanation how he  justified abandoning the Night Watch (we know that especially the North holds the vow to the Night watch sacred)

    • Littlefinger,

      • a major player in books as well as in the show until end of season 6

      • he plays a pitiful role now; having two scenes each in episode 1 and 2; one with some stupid, unclever talk, the other smirking in the background during gathering of Lords in Winterfell;

      • one of the most valuable councilors  for Jon (the by far best politician he has around him)  – he remains completely unused

      • never a thankful remark by Jon for saving him in the battle of bastards

      • If there is mistrust between Jon and Lord Baelish, it is too important not to be discussed openly

    • Davos

      • does nearly not talk at all (second most experienced politician Jon has around him) => a similar waste as Littlefinger.

    • Bran Stark

      • the probably most important source of information and help for Jon/Sansa and the whole North in general:

      • I take it for given that Bran  wants to rejoin his remaining family and that Dolorous Edd (acting Lord Commander of the Night Watch) tells him that he will find Jon at Winterfell as KOTN; even if Bran should already know by himself via his ability to look at the present at past through weirwoods

      • Even if we may assume that it takes him some time to come down from Castle Black to Winterfell (would have been nice to have seen him depart though): A bird with a letter from Castle Black to Winterfell (shorter distance to fly than e.g. from Oldtown or Dragonstone to Winterfell) is the minimum I expect to have arrived and mentioned by Sansa and/or Jon within episode 2

  • Kings Landing

    • Cersei lecturing the Lords of the Reach about defending Westeros from barbarians, but no one mentions concerns about her attempts to forge an alliance with the Ironborn? That is ridiculous, even for the show.

I have highlighted the points that really annoy me and that are inacceptable in my opinion, even for the show. As for Arya, Jaime and Samwell, Brienne, Tormund, Sansa: I can live with what they did in these two episodes.

Not bad but Littlefinger should be dead by now, long time. HE destroyed Sansa's life, her reputation, her body and mind and spirit thanks mostly to him using her, lying to her, selling her, framing her etc. Royce knows he lied about Sansa becoming Lady Bolton, Sansa and Royce are there, Sweet Robin is not, 5 minutes or less conversation and LF is gone and everyone will be, would be better off if he was. It one cannot be trusted, their "council" is not worth spit.

The Reach Lords were fools to walk into the Red Keep and hear Cersei out after what she did in the Great Sept.

The problem with Dany's situation is that she is not taking Oleanna's advice and listening to the Imp. This will playout to prove it too I think.

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The show stopped being fun to watch when they killed off Barristan Selmy. I get they need to streamline characters and all that but they could have given Barristan a more noble and glorious death. I only watch the show now out of sheer morbid curiosity and lack of a better option on other channels. My only hope is that George finishes all the remaining books before I die. 

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Killing Barristan was an obvious way to avoid putting Tyrion through his book arc - not sure who decided but I'd hazard a guess that Dinklage had some say in it. If it was D&D's choice entirely there wouldn't have been little digs like the 2 ex slaves saying 'and how long were you a slave for?' to Tyrion. Tyrion is almost a non character now.

I do agree that the writing quality has decreased gradually and dramatically from season 4 onward, because there has been no relevant source to follow. Feast and Dance would not have made good television as they were, parts barely made good reading and they didn't feature enough of the established cast.

During Season 5 D&D said there isn't much story left and wanted to finish in 6 or 7 seasons. HBO wanted more, much more - they want to milk the crap out of this.

D&D obviously know the ending and a couple of major points on the way (Shireen burning, time travelling Hodor Bran etc) but have no idea how to connect it all. Either GRRM doesn't know yet or hasn't told them, because it would show if he had. Without doubt, GRRM is a better writer than those working on the show and I'm sure they know it and would prefer his help if it was available.

So what we are stuck with is inferior connective writing between major scenes, made worse by the fact that HBO execs want to drag it out. All that really matters now are the major scenes, so that we get to see how it all ties up - I doubt the ending will ever be written by GRRM.

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He's in that peculiar position where he's not allowed to speak, or seat at a table, at the winterfell councils, yet he's allowed to go into the crypts while jon is mourning.

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8 hours ago, AdoraKitty said:

I only watch the show now out of sheer morbid curiosity and lack of a better option on other channels. My only hope is that George finishes all the remaining books before I die. 

Couldn't have expressed my feelings any better than that.

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On 25/7/2017 at 6:27 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

within the show (which has not been too bad until end of season 6, despite a steady drop in quality since season 4) certain standards have to be obeyed: It is the coherence,  the inner logic of the story and the characters (their way of thinking, acting)

That. Character's coherence is what bothers me the most. In particular in Winterfell and King's Landing, even if not only there. I find most of them  OoC. I surely would add to your list Jaime, and maybe sansa too. I really don't understand anymore what characters think, and it's a first time for me. Probably part of the problem is the rhythm (everything condensed), but it's not just that. If it's true that NCW kept asking questions about his part of scripts, well, he was right.  I don't want to rant about the show, I'm just really trying to understand it. Can we try?

On 25/7/2017 at 6:27 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

By the way, accompanied with a cutting of the scenes that is in great parts more than questionable, choking the rhythm of the films.

Yes, everything it's a bit too hasty, some scenes seem disconnected. Grey worm/Missandei scene could have been a good scene, but it was a weird moment, out of nowhere.

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Excellent point about the Ironborn.

They have written themselves into too many corners.  THAT is the reason why no one asks obvious questions in the show, because then they would have to have an answer for them and they keep ignoring it hoping the audience forgets.  Then they write themselves into another corner and basically have to mention it again and come up with some kind of excuse, rather than planning for consequence in advance.

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Agreed on most points, although I still enjoy watching it and look forward to the next episode.

Re John leaving the NW, I think his excuse is that he died "and now his watch has ended". Perhaps also that now the whole of the north is essentially the NW.

There is something kind of funny about how he talks about "the army of the dead" in front of everyone. They don't act sceptical, but they don't seem appropriately surprised either. I laughed in the last season when he went to get Lyanna Mormont's help. He didn't even bother mentioning the evil magic monster army at first. Eventually Davos had to tell Lyanna "the real war isn’t between a few squabbling houses. It’s between the living and the dead. And make no mistake, my lady, the dead are coming." Her reaction was "Is this true?" with no further comment or questions once Jon confirmed it.

I suppose Varys has lost a lot of his resources now, but I'd love to see him show some initiative. He can still disguise himself and listen to gossip, even if he doesn't have anyone working for him anymore.

I have no idea what's going on with Littlefinger. He's unusually quiet. He doesn't even pretend to show any real interest in Jon's success since saving him in battle, so I don't know why he's hanging around. He could at least be trying to insert himself into councils instead of standing in the corner smirking all the time. He should be the first to realise that with his reputation he needs to at least pretend to help if he doesn't want to be kicked out and replaced by Lord Royce.

I suppose Cersei is getting desperate, but in the past it would have been her raising objections to the use of people like the Ironborn and other people saying telling her there are no other options. I might be thinking of the books too much, but she doesn't trust and normally focuses on the risks more than the lack of better options, e.g. her inability to see the value of Tyrion and insistence that he was plotting against her and her children, her refusal to allow Joffrey to help defend King's Landing, her opposition to sending Tommen and Myrcella away, etc. It also seems especially out of character for her to call Euron "king" even in private. Perhaps flatter him to his face for now, but to so easily accept yet another independence movement, especially now she's queen, seems odd.

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21 hours ago, Cridefea said:

That. Character's coherence is what bothers me the most. In particular in Winterfell and King's Landing, even if not only there. I find most of them  OoC. I surely would add to your list Jaime, and maybe sansa too. I really don't understand anymore what characters think, and it's a first time for me. Probably part of the problem is the rhythm (everything condensed), but it's not just that. If it's true that NCW kept asking questions about his part of scripts, well, he was right.  I don't want to rant about the show, I'm just really trying to understand it. Can we try?

Yes, everything it's a bit too hasty, some scenes seem disconnected. Grey worm/Missandei scene could have been a good scene, but it was a weird moment, out of nowhere.

Now I completely understand him......(and what's to come :( )

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On 26/07/2017 at 2:42 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

D&D completely destroyed Littlefinger character and the scene of Jon strangling him is pure fan service, why in the hell Littlefinger goes after Jon telling him that he loves Sansa and Cat and all the Cogman's stupid dialogue when Sansa became the wardeness of the north? it's totally illogical and out of his character

That one may actually make a bit of sense, if you trust that Sansa is an important objective for Littlefinger. Littlefinger was testing Jon to see how he would react to his intention of courting Sansa. Would he be hostile, neutral, try to bargain or something else entirely? Could Jon manage as a politician? As it stands, Jon failed miserably. Again. Not only has he squarely placed himself between Littlefinger and one of his objectives, he has also repaid the man who saved his life with threats. I suspect the result will be that Littlefinger will start working his magic behind the scenes to crush Jon.

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27 minutes ago, Zumbs said:

the result will be that Littlefinger will start working his magic behind the scenes to crush Jon.

I understand you but sorry, it was a stupid chitchat from the writers, Littlefinger knows that Sansa doesn't want him and that Jon doesn't have any power on her.

He can crush Jon right now with a finger's sign, the army of the vale is in winterfell and they can kill everyone there.

There is no magic left for Littlefinger, he's totally torn between taking Winterfell with the army of the Vale and giving it and Sansa's head to Cersei OR his love to Sansa and his dreams about her and the iron throne and the problem that she doesn't give a damn about him, that's what D&D must show us not some scene in a cave.

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There is no reason to believe that the Vale Army will stay loyal to LF, let alone that they would support him taking WF from the Starks.  They are long time Stark supporters.  But, LF should have been dead several times already.....Roose Bolton, Lord Royce and Sansa all have had motive and opportunity to kill him, but he's still alive.  

 

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15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But, LF should have been dead several times already.....Roose Bolton, Lord Royce and Sansa all have had motive and opportunity to kill him, but he's still alive.  

And him still alive is the biggest mystery of GOT and I blame D&D for not giving any reason in the show on why he is still alive or what is his purpose after the battle of the bastards instead of that they turned him to a joke

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I really imagined at the end of last season to see a small council in WF with Davos, Sansa, and LF. I imagined that LF would be the one giving them the news of the Dragon Queen coming to Westeros. I also imagined that Varys would be the one informing Dany and Tyrion about Jon. Isn't that the  kind of thing LF and Varys would know about? I would think that LF would use the information about Dany and Cersei to try to steer Jon or Sansa in a direction against one another. I think the reason the show has all but dropped political intrigue is because they don't have time for it to develop. To me, I get the feeling that the show is rushing to get done. At this point, they are just concerned about meeting big plot points and showing cool visuals. The LF and Jon in the crypts most likely has no plot reason. It was probably done just to give Jon another "Ned" moment. It's really disappointing as a viewer because when I see something happen on the show I think it must be significant and I want to use it to theorize what will happen next. Unfortunately, I think I am seeing more and more scenes that have no reasoning and no future significance. There just there to look cool. 

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