Rhaegar vs Aerys?

[Prince Jon Targaryen]

Grand Meester Pycelle once wrote a letter saying that the divisions at court strongly resembled those immediately before the Dance of the Dragons. Some say that if Robert's Rebellion had never happened, Aerys would have eventually either disinherited Rhaegar or killed him. Let's assume Rhaegar does not make the dumb decision of crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty and never kidnaps her. Do you think a civil war could have broken out between Rhaegar and Aerys anyways, and if so, what do you think would have happened?

[theMADdestScientist_]

3 hours ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Aerys would have eventually either disinherited Rhaegar or killed him.

If Aerys wanted to kill Rhaegar, he would need one hell of a good reason for it, and even if somehow he found one, such an act would have terrible consequences for Aerys, he would be called a kinslayer, and the faith of the seven would see this action with great displeasure(you don't want them against you).

I know Aerys was the king, but he did not had that much support as you think. During Robert's Rebellion, he went looking for Rhaegar twice, because Aerys was not capable to stop the rebellion, he had no support, nor was he a warrior/commander. If Aerys wanted to kill his "popular son," he would have found himself in the same position he did back in Robert's Rebellion. Also, you need to take into account that Rhaegar would never allow his father to kill him.

 

Aerys Targaryen was doomed really, if he had not killed the Starks, he would have tried something with Rhaegar, and Aerys would probably meet his end, once again...

[SerDuncanTheShort]

1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

If Aerys wanted to kill Rhaegar, he would need one hell of a good reason for it, and even if somehow he found one, such an act would have terrible consequences for Aerys, he would be called a kinslayer, and the faith of the seven would see this action with great displeasure(you don't want them against you).

I know Aerys was the king, but he did not had that much support as you think. During Robert's Rebellion, he went looking for Rhaegar twice, because Aerys was not capable to stop the rebellion, he had no support, nor was he a warrior/commander. If Aerys wanted to kill his "popular son," he would have found himself in the same position he did back in Robert's Rebellion. Also, you need to take into account that Rhaegar would never allow his father to kill him.

 

Aerys Targaryen was doomed really, if he had not killed the Starks, he would have tried something with Rhaegar, and Aerys would probably meet his end, once again...

Well he doesn't have to publicly execute him or take the blame. He could just ask Varys to arrange an "accident" or something although I wonder if that's really his style.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Grand Meester Pycelle once wrote a letter saying that the divisions at court strongly resembled those immediately before the Dance of the Dragons. Some say that if Robert's Rebellion had never happened, Aerys would have eventually either disinherited Rhaegar or killed him. Let's assume Rhaegar does not make the dumb decision of crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty and never kidnaps her. Do you think a civil war could have broken out between Rhaegar and Aerys anyways, and if so, what do you think would have happened?

He never kidnaped her. But, assuming he never met up with her in the riverlands, she would have gone to find him, confusion would still abound and everything would happen as written in the book 

[Lord Wraith]

Some people theorize that Rhaegar was the one behind the Tournament at Harrenhal. He intended to hold a Great Council to peacefully depose his father. Of course Varys tipped Aerys off which is why he attended the tournament.

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He never kidnaped her. But, assuming he never met up with her in the riverlands, she would have gone to find him, confusion would still abound and everything would happen as written in the book 

Cool story, bro!

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Cool story, bro!

 It is. In fact, you are on a forum dedicated to it 

[SeanF]

Aerys II was scarcely rational.

I could imagine him doing something like burning Rhaegar in wildfire, and forcing Viserys and Rhaella to watch.

[AdoraKitty]

What was Aerys' problem with Rhaegar? Did he have a problem with Rhaegar before Varys' suspicions surrounding the tourney of Harrenhal? Aerys must have known Rhaegar would inherit after him. That was the whole reason he was made to marry Rhaella, who he didn't love. 

[The Fattest Leech]

59 minutes ago, AdoraKitty said:

What was Aerys' problem with Rhaegar? Did he have a problem with Rhaegar before Varys' suspicions surrounding the tourney of Harrenhal? Aerys must have known Rhaegar would inherit after him. That was the whole reason he was made to marry Rhaella, who he didn't love. 

Whispers and rumors to a king with the madness already starting in. Whispers and rumors are a deadly thing in this world. Whispers (words on the wind) have been shown to have the power to 'kill' everyone from individuals, to entire cultures (ex; free folk).

• When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."
• The Mad King could be savagely cruel, as seen most plainly when he burned those he perceived to be his enemies, but he could also be extravagant, showering men who pleased him with honors, offices, and lands. The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Prince Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.
• Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

And behind it all is the greed of prestige and money. They could get what they wanted from a mentally ill Aerys, but not from Rhaegar:

• If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

Whispers, especially from Varys, can be deadly:

• Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined. When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers.
• In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.
• His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne. Yet with Varys the Spider and his whisperers listening, it had become very dangerous to voice any of these sentiments aloud.

 

[AdoraKitty]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Whispers and rumors to a king with the madness already starting in. Whispers and rumors are a deadly thing in this world. Whispers (words on the wind) have been shown to have the power to 'kill' everyone from individuals, to entire cultures (ex; free folk).

• When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."
• The Mad King could be savagely cruel, as seen most plainly when he burned those he perceived to be his enemies, but he could also be extravagant, showering men who pleased him with honors, offices, and lands. The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Prince Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.
• Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

And behind it all is the greed of prestige and money. They could get what they wanted from a mentally ill Aerys, but not from Rhaegar:

• If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

Whispers, especially from Varys, can be deadly:

• Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined. When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers.
• In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.
• His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne. Yet with Varys the Spider and his whisperers listening, it had become very dangerous to voice any of these sentiments aloud.

 

Thank you. I missed most of that whilst reading the books. I could never understand why people thought Aerys had a problem with his own son but now you've cleared it up and explained it all. Thank you.

[Fire Eater]

Rhaegar would have avoided such a situation with Aerys. His words to Jaime : "When this battle's done I mean to call a council." suggests he meant to call a Great Council. He would have tried to remove his father through political means. 

[Graydon Hicks]

i think it would have either come to full blown war between rhaegar and aerys, if rhaegar couldnt gather the support from the houses. i think when he arragned harrenahl, he was planning on the younger lords and the house heirs to attend, the sitting LP. he was trying to reach out to the members of his generation, people like brandon, robert, oberyn and doran, i think mace attended, and he would have been in that age group. it wouldnt have been noticable, because these would be those most likely to attend and participate in a tourney, and they could return to thei fathers and uncles and try to convince them to side with rhaegar. and if they couldnt, then they would be in position to take over and openly support the prince when they inherited the house. rhaegar was courting the future for support.

[xander_blackfyre]

Rhaegar was not a fighter by nature so all out war would have been something that he would have tried to avoid at all costs.  From what we know of the time it does seem like things were generally heading that way as even if the great council happened Aerys does not seem the type to just go away after being deposed, and it seemed like Viserys was Aerys favored son by the end and only Robert's Rebellion stopped him from naming Viserys his heir and disposing Rhaegar.

If it came to war its also difficult to know who would have sided with who.  Yes Rhaegar was loved by the small folk and respected among the lords, but many of those lords had curried favor with Aerys who they knew how to manipulate into giving them more by stoking his ego.  Would they want to give that up for Rhaegar who did not have all that much of an ego and cared more about doing good for the people who would have surrounded himself with strong advisors that would have kept these leach lords away.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:00 PM, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Grand Meester Pycelle once wrote a letter saying that the divisions at court strongly resembled those immediately before the Dance of the Dragons. Some say that if Robert's Rebellion had never happened, Aerys would have eventually either disinherited Rhaegar or killed him. Let's assume Rhaegar does not make the dumb decision of crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty and never kidnaps her. Do you think a civil war could have broken out between Rhaegar and Aerys anyways, and if so, what do you think would have happened?

1. Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children after the Trident to prevent any of Rhaegar's children from getting the throne.  He would have done the same even if the rebellion had not taken place.  Rhaegar's inheritance was in danger the moment Viserys was born.  The inheritance passed to Viserys.
2. Rhaegar would not get much support against his father.  Lords would hesitate because they all believed and supported that right to rule is not dependent on popularity.  The realm was, after all, very prosperous under Aerys.  Supporting a son's bid to remove his father from power would put their own inherited rights to hold power in danger.  

[Graydon Hicks]

but aerys had also done much to alienate many of the most powerful lords, and most of his toadies i believe came from the crownlands. if rhaegar could gain the support of those lords dissatisfied with aerys, then he might the support he needed to remove his father as bloodlessly as possible. their would still be killing, but with appropriate support, he could flood KL and the red keep with men loyal to him, to quell the gold cloaks and force the targ forces in the city and castle to surrender, if he did it by surprise, he could maybe force the surrender with out having to kill them. then it would be a matter of taking aeyrs's cronies into custody and apprehending aerys himself. i bet dragonstone, or even red keep have special rooms just for targ family members that showed too much of the crazy.

[John Doe]

I subscribe to the theory that Tywin and Rhaegar worked together to remove Aerys. Had Rhaegar won at the Trident, he would have returned to King's Landing, met up with Tywin's forces who were already on their way there, and dethroned Aerys. 

[GyantSpyder]

If you go with the human-hating weirwood fungus symbiote theory, it seems possible that Aerys II was infected with the fungus when he was kept prisoner in the dungeons of Duskendale and repeatedly violated there.

And that Aerion Brightflame might have been infected in his experiments with the dark arts.

If you look at Daenerys genetically and see her as having "dragon's blood" then it seems likely that Aerys also had "dragon's blood," meaning that he had some degree of mental sensitivity to magic, dreams, vision, prophesy, dragons, etc.

In this reading, the ability to dragon ride, see visions, warg or skinchange, all of it might also make you vulnerable to various sorts of externally-provoked madness.

Targaryan madness might not be so much a Targaryan trait as a Targaryan vulnerability exploited by others.

By this reading (which is And Seven Times Never Kill Man influenced), after he was infected, Aerys would feel a strong impetus toward a self-team-wipe - to foment mutually destructive conflict, to not trust anyone, to hurt or kill his own children and family, to shed human blood on a large scale, and ultimately to kill himself by burning himself to death.

So, Aerys's paranoia was not going to go away. He was eventually going to try to kill Rhaegar and himself. He would probably still tried to carry out his plan of hiding wildfire caches all over the place under King's Landing and then blowing the place up, regardless of the other politics at play.

[Prince Jon Targaryen]

On July 29, 2017 at 0:34 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Whispers and rumors to a king with the madness already starting in. Whispers and rumors are a deadly thing in this world. Whispers (words on the wind) have been shown to have the power to 'kill' everyone from individuals, to entire cultures (ex; free folk).

• When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."
• The Mad King could be savagely cruel, as seen most plainly when he burned those he perceived to be his enemies, but he could also be extravagant, showering men who pleased him with honors, offices, and lands. The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Prince Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.
• Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

And behind it all is the greed of prestige and money. They could get what they wanted from a mentally ill Aerys, but not from Rhaegar:

• If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar Targaryen was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had good reason to oppose his removal from the Iron Throne, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

Whispers, especially from Varys, can be deadly:

• Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined. When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers.
• In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.
• His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. In King's Landing, he was called King Scab, for the many times he had cut himself upon the Iron Throne. Yet with Varys the Spider and his whisperers listening, it had become very dangerous to voice any of these sentiments aloud.

 

Did you copy this from the wiki or collect this together on your own? It's well written. At any rate, here's what I think:

If Rhaegar had never went away with Lyanna, and assuming Aerys still came to the tourney, I would assume Rhaegar would still try to play the game of thrones, only on the down-low. I feel the most obvious move would be to bond with/win allegiance with Lord Tywin Lannister. Rhaegar already has the allegiance of House Martell, as he is married to Elia of Dorne. So those are two houses down, but I don't know where the other houses would place their allegiances. So that's why I don't know who would win. I know all the lords on the council who would oppose Aerys being removed are crownlands lords.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Did you copy this from the wiki or collect this together on your own? It's well written.

It from the horses mouth (GRRM/World book), but they are easily missed passages because they are seeded in very carefully as to read right past them. 

1 hour ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

At any rate, here's what I think:

If Rhaegar had never went away with Lyanna, and assuming Aerys still came to the tourney, I would assume Rhaegar would still try to play the game of thrones, only on the down-low. I feel the most obvious move would be to bond with/win allegiance with Lord Tywin Lannister. Rhaegar already has the allegiance of House Martell, as he is married to Elia of Dorne. So those are two houses down, but I don't know where the other houses would place their allegiances. So that's why I don't know who would win. I know all the lords on the council who would oppose Aerys being removed are crownlands lords.

I'm on my phone at work so this will have to be brief, but in agree to something along the same lines as well. The only other bone of contention is how Pycelle, a total Tywin lickspittle, could have worked his way into it as well. Pycelle mentioned something in ACOK to Tyrion about wanting to put Tywin on the throne, but Robert moved too quickly (or something). It could have been interesting.