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What is up with Patchfaces riddles. All the other riddles/dreams/visions etc from the other characters, I can pretty easily decipher but Patchfaces have me completely stumped. 

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1 hour ago, AdoraKitty said:

What is up with Patchfaces riddles. All the other riddles/dreams/visions etc from the other characters, I can pretty easily decipher but Patchfaces have me completely stumped. 

If you notice, all of his riddles have certain common elements, for example he prefaces most of his bizarre pronouncements with the phrase 'under the sea' and punctuates them with 'I know I know oh oh oh,' to the accompaniment of the ring of the bells.  Assuming his jabberwocky is actually prophecy to be taken seriously (as Lewis Carroll's jabberwocky contains more hidden depths than at first meets the eye), then presumably he's indicating a time and/or place when these events shall come to fruition, namely 'under the sea.'  I'd recommend you start with that phrase.  Once you figure out what 'under the sea' represents, I predict (in my capacity as 'The Poetess of the Nennymoans'...) the rest will fall into place.

I have some ideas -- but no certainty.  ;)

Edited by ravenous reader

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"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord."

Prologue, Clash

Others, shadow assassins, dragons, or something else that goes bump in the night. Take your pick. 

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This one is my favorite: The first time we hear about Azor Ahai, Patchface adds a little color commentary... 

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"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire aburning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. ... Behind, Davos heard a faint clank and clatter of bells. "Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Davos I, Clash 10

What the f#&!, Patches? Why did The George stick that in there? Not a lot of folks here have tried to answer that question. Before the full title of the The Princess and the Queen was released, the best explanation I read was that it was a foreshadowing of Tyrion's wildfire on the Blackwater.

Then, in late 2013, we learned the full title of the Dance of the Dragons novella: The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens.

Spoiler
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"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Arianne I, Winds

Aegon was the leader of the greens in the first Dance of Dragons, so it stands to reason that our Aegon, assuming he will "dance" with Daenerys, can be associated with green.

And, well, um... the babe was the leader of the blacks, right? So it stands to reason that our babe, the hot chick on the black dragon, can be associated with black.

If you search a bit, you'll find all kinds of green and black contrasts and combinations throughout ASOIAF. Perhaps it's nothing more than coincidence, but I highly doubt that. There was a reason for all those green and black color references.

Oh, and we already knew about Jon being the blue flower, right?

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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

Dig this... As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes...

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All the colors that had been missing from Vaes Tolorro had found their way to Qarth; buildings crowded about her fantastical as a fever dream in shades of rose, violet, and umber. She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakesmating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. Slim towers stood taller than any Dany had ever seen, and elaborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores.

Daenerys II, Clash

Notice that she observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive. In case you dont know, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab. In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud.

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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Fool's blood. King's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye.

Davos II, Storm 10

This foreshadows the red wedding. Aegon Frey, called Jinglebell, was killed, as was King Robb. Edmure bedded his bride, the maiden Roslyn, and the guests that survived were imprisoned along with Edmure the bridegroom. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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Is it possible that the fate of Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale foreshadows the fate of Melisandre? Melisandre is loved by only a few...

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The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and ... worst sin of all ... that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same.

Davos V, Storm 54

Here's what happened to the Lace Serpent...

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"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. ... The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. ...

... "Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her."

Brienne II, Feast 9

I suppose being burned alive would be a fitting end for Melisandre.

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At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons. "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."

Davos V, Storm 54

Under the sea is a metaphor for death. Melisandre is old...

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... Strange voices called to her from days long past.

...

... Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price.

Melisandre, Dance 31

Shireen is young...

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Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known.

Prologue, Clash

Melisandre wants king’s blood...

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Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

...

... He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

Davos VI, Storm 63

She can't have Edric, but Shireen has king’s blood, and Shireen is a dead girl...

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"If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."

"Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean! "

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Melisandre is going to burn Shireen with Selyse’s blessing, since they will both be desperate having seen Jon Snow betrayed and wounded or dead, and having come to believe that Ramsay has defeated and killed Stannis.

And the old fish will eat the young fish. Poor Shireen.

Stannis is gonna be pissed. 

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In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh.

Jon IX, Dance 44

That's gotta be the Others, right? 

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The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Jon XI, Dance 53

And that's gotta be Bloodraven, right? 

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I'm not sure what to make of Patchface.

My best guess: I think he's likely the result of a GRRM thought-experiment about edge-cases in his magic system. For example, maybe he was a Faceless Man that drowned while wearing someone else's face. The "Drowned God" gestalt made contact as he died but the thing it contacted was a fake soul, a simulation, installed on someone else's "hardware", resulting in some kind of weird psychic feedback loop that resulted in the "face" continuing to inhabit the body after the death of the Faceless Man himself, madness, and a fourth-dimensional awareness that allows him to sing songs from the future.

That's just an example of a way two different magic systems might interact, really.  I have no particular reason to believe he was a Faceless Man.

I doubt he'll have much impact on the plot. He's not an agent or pawn of any of the Players nor is he a Player himself, he's just a weird anomaly.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Don't Dany's dragons breathe black, blue and green flames? Not sure what "smoke rises in bubbles" would imply by this interpretation.

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If you care to know my thoughts about "Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs," follow this

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4 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

I'm not sure what to make of Patchface.

My best guess: I think he's likely the result of a GRRM thought-experiment about edge-cases in his magic system. For example, maybe he was a Faceless Man that drowned while wearing someone else's face. The "Drowned God" gestalt made contact as he died but the thing it contacted was a fake soul, a simulation, installed on someone else's "hardware", resulting in some kind of weird psychic feedback loop that resulted in the "face" continuing to inhabit the body after the death of the Faceless Man himself, madness, and a fourth-dimensional awareness that allows him to sing songs from the future.

That's just an example of a way two different magic systems might interact, really.  I have no particular reason to believe he was a Faceless Man.

I doubt he'll have much impact on the plot. He's not an agent or pawn of any of the Players nor is he a Player himself, he's just a weird anomaly.

Don't Dany's dragons breathe black, blue and green flames? Not sure what "smoke rises in bubbles" would imply by this interpretation.

Consider the context of the quote. Patchface recites that little diddy as we learn about Azor Ahai reborn, and as we see that Stannis is an in-story red herring for Daenerys (who, in turn, is a red herring for Jon Snow). 

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"Lord Snow, who will lead this ranging?"

...

"I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

This foreshadows Stannis's ruse at Winterfell, and his alliance with House Manderly. 

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20 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Don't Dany's dragons breathe black, blue and green flames? Not sure what "smoke rises in bubbles" would imply by this interpretation.

It occurs to me that "smoke rises in bubbles" seems like smoke signals. Not sure what to make of that except to note that smoke signals would be a viable long-distance communication method in a time when Winter is too harsh for ravens to survive exposure.

16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Consider the context of the quote. Patchface recites that little diddy as we learn about Azor Ahai reborn

Sure, I got that.

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It seems as if a manticore in GRRM's world is a giant scorpion and thus house Qorgyl with whom Oberyn has a connection. So we could assume that the third beast is Oberyn/Dorne. Which makes sense . Dragon (Aegon), Griffin (Connington), Sand snakes.

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12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is it possible that the fate of Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale foreshadows the fate of Melisandre? Melisandre is loved by only a few...

Davos V, Storm 54

Here's what happened to the Lace Serpent...

Brienne II, Feast 9

I suppose being burned alive would be a fitting end for Melisandre.

Davos V, Storm 54

Under the sea is a metaphor for death. Melisandre is old...

Melisandre, Dance 31

Interesting observation. This also tracks pretty closely with the Green Grace predicting that the deceased King Cleon would lead his army to victory. His dead body, strapped to a horse, was not victorious and the Green Grace was impaled and died slowly in a public square, covered with flies. (Since she's green and Melisandre is red, we'll also probably have to keep an eye on the fate of the Blue Bard, currently being tortured by Qyburn in a dungeon at the Red Keep.)

On the Patchface mystery: I think it's significant that Patchface was the person brought back by Steffon Baratheon when he was sent to find a bride for Rhaegar. Obviously Patchface was never intended as a bride, but there is a link there. Whether we're supposed to see an echo of the mysterious Elia Martell or whether he has some other symbolic role, I suspect the author wants us to keep Patchface's origin story in the backs of our minds.

Here's a thought: Maybe all fools are symbolic Targaryens. The Frey fool was named Aegon. Who else do we have? Butterbumps and Moonboy? Butterbumps hatches eggs, so there is some possible dragon symbolism.

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35 minutes ago, Seams said:

On the Patchface mystery: I think it's significant that Patchface was the person brought back by Steffon Baratheon when he was sent to find a bride for Rhaegar. Obviously Patchface was never intended as a bride, but there is a link there. Whether we're supposed to see an echo of the mysterious Elia Martell or whether he has some other symbolic role, I suspect the author wants us to keep Patchface's origin story in the backs of our minds.

Here's a thought: Maybe all fools are symbolic Targaryens. The Frey fool was named Aegon. Who else do we have? Butterbumps and Moonboy? Butterbumps hatches eggs, so there is some possible dragon symbolism.

Dunk observed Florian the Fool being performed at the Ashford Tourney. Dunk was a lowborn knight, and a fool of sorts himself: Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall. If not Dunk, then maybe this can be extended to Brienne who was searching for Dontos who was Sansa’s Florian. Not lowborn but also not accepted by her class, and is something of a fool herself who fell hopelessly in love with Renly. She has Targ blood back there somewhere.

If we're taking our cue from Brienne, maybe not that Targs are fools so much as lost and not on the correct track? Seems the case since the dragons died out. Could Butterbumps be connected to Dany or Summerhall with the dragon egg hatching?

I'm researching something related now and am starting to see that the fool in motley is maybe not to be treated so differently from the more conventional fool.

ASOS Sansa I

"Feathers, in this case. What did you imagine I was speaking of? My son? Or these lovely ladies? No, don't blush, with your hair it makes you look like a pomegranate. All men are fools, if truth be told, but the ones in motley are more amusing than ones with crowns.

 From the wiki:

Jonquil: You are no knight, I know you. You are Florian the Fool.

Florian: I am, my lady, As great a fool as ever lived, and as great a knight as well.
Jonquil: A fool and a knight? I have never heard of such a thing.
Florian: Sweet lady, all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned.[2]

– puppeteers playing Jonquil and Florian, at the Ashford tourney

 

 

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I always wonder why Patchface is keep around Shireen(the kid would be better off with a dog).I also wonder how Shireen stays sane with Patchface as her companion. I could see him killing Mel if Mel burn Shireen(Patchface seem to be as loyal  to Shieen as Selyse is to Mel).

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Just a little thought, as I'm currently reading Clash for the first time: "Under the sea" is "under water". Snow is frozen water. Under the sea could simply mean "in winter" ("under snow" - not Jon, obviously). In his own words, Patchface is saying, "Winter is coming", and he knows what will happen. His very first song is about a shadow, a few pages before Stannis gets the idea of murdering Renly.

Maybe he'll be holding a door for Bran at some point?

Edited by Ice C

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