Is House Tully too boring?

[John Doe]

Does anyone not think that the Tullys are the least interesting great house? Their sigil is a fish and their words are pretty much not distinct words at all, since Family, Duty and Honour are what most families try to balance anyway. They are the only great house that's not related to royalty. The only particularily interesting character (aside from Catelyn, who is as much a Stark as she is a Tully) is Brynden, who is even called the "Blackfish" because he's the black sheep of the family. Did I overlook something that makes the Tullys interesting? Does anyone else feel like Martin tried a little less when he established House Tully?

[Little Bird of the North]

Not every house can be interesting and full of fascinating, complex personalities, unfortunately.

That being said, I don't think House Tully is boring. Catelyn is a Tully as Cersei is a Lannister, and we all recognise Cersei as a true Lannister more than anything else. I could see the argument for Catelyn being much more devoted to the Stark name/family than Cersei is to the Baratheon equivalent, but we still get a large glimpse into Tully lifestyle and what life was like at Riverrun from Catelyn's point of view. Lysa also isn't exactly a boring character, and Brynden is pretty great. Edmure and Hoster I could see being described as boring I suppose, but overall, I don't suppose it matters very much. House Tully serves its purpose in the story as any other house does, and it doesn't need to have every member be a well-rounded character with interesting and deep personalities to match like House Stark and Lannister.

Besides, if there is any house with the crime of being the most boring, I'd name House Arryn personally. 

[TMIFairy]

I find the Tully House Words to be amongst the best in Westeros - if not the best.

And Edmure is Hot!Stuff! - and reputed to be wild between the sheets!

[Bernie Mac]

Even GRRM seems bored of them. Rather than make an interesting history for them he instead names them after a bunch of muppets. 

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Even GRRM seems bored of them. Rather than make an interesting history for them he instead names them after a bunch of muppets. 

I'm actually itching to know what happens to Edmure and his little heir if/when Jaime returns. Maybe freeing them to Stoneheart is how he buys himself free?

And I'd like to see some sort of arc for Eddie, because he just seemed spoiled and stupid before the Freys had their way with him.

[John Doe]

On 30.7.2017 at 0:47 PM, Arya, Queen of the North said:

Not every house can be interesting and full of fascinating, complex personalities, unfortunately.

That being said, I don't think House Tully is boring. Catelyn is a Tully as Cersei is a Lannister, and we all recognise Cersei as a true Lannister more than anything else. I could see the argument for Catelyn being much more devoted to the Stark name/family than Cersei is to the Baratheon equivalent, but we still get a large glimpse into Tully lifestyle and what life was like at Riverrun from Catelyn's point of view. Lysa also isn't exactly a boring character, and Brynden is pretty great. Edmure and Hoster I could see being described as boring I suppose, but overall, I don't suppose it matters very much. House Tully serves its purpose in the story as any other house does, and it doesn't need to have every member be a well-rounded character with interesting and deep personalities to match like House Stark and Lannister.

Besides, if there is any house with the crime of being the most boring, I'd name House Arryn personally. 

I don't know if it's about the space it would take to develop them. The Tyrells manage to be interesting imo without too many chapters dedicated to them specifically, for example. Lysa isn't boring, but she's crazy and stupid. I always defended Edmure, he seems like a decent lord, but he has the image of an oaf more than anything else. 

The Arryns are only boring because the current generation sucks, in general I think they have a decently interesting past. More interesting than the muppets of the Tullys anyway. 

[Lord Vance II]

All the houses that became LP's after the conquest are pretty boring IMO, but this is mainly due to them just not having the time to have the history of the Starks or Lannisters. They weren't even particularly powerful before Aegon, they were just the first to turn. I think the Vances should've been raised, but I'm obviously biased. I think the same can be said for the Tyrells, I've never understood why the Hightowers weren't made LP even if the Tyrells got Highgarden. Baratheon is a slightly different story. 

I'm mainly talking about in the World book though. 

In ASoIaF, I don't think they're any more boring than anyone else. I agree that their words are super weak and their colors are pretty generic too, but as far as the characters go I think they're solid. If Hoster was well I think they would be much more interesting, especially if the Southron Ambitions theory is true and he was an architect of the Targ downfall. 

[John Doe]

It just seems to me like Martin was too lazy to give the Riverlands a proper great house and instead gave them the most generic words and sigil possible, which is  shame because most of his houses are awesome.

[desire]

Not sure about boring with the black fish. But last time I saw a trout take a literary test didn't go to plan much to the disappointment of the science guys.House Tully be dumb 

[devilish]

GRRM has an elegant way of exposing the Westerosi nobility’s hypocrisy and bias which he uses time and time again. There’s plenty of examples of that but nothing captures it better than the Riverlands, specifically the Tully family.

 

Take Robert’s rebellion as an example. On one hand you have Walder Frey who is bashed for refusing to join Robert’s rebellion simply because he gains nothing out of it. On the other hand there’s Hoster Tully who is quite respected despite forcing his daughter to commit an abortion, he forced his own brother to a self-inflicted exile and he didn’t lift a finger to join Robert’s cause before securing the marriage between his daughters and two wardens. That makes you wonder. What would have happened if Ned decided to marry Ashara instead of Cat? Would Hoster react in a similar way to Walder? Is the risk of such over-reaction that led Ned not to ask Robert to legitimise his own son?

Cat Tully is a masterpiece of such hypocrisy. She sees herself as an obedient wife who sincerely loves her husband. Yet she didn’t thought twice to throw Ned in hot water when she kidnapped Tyrion and she took him to the Vale to die. Surely she must have known that the wolf was defenceless in KL and couldn’t possibly take on the Lannisters there.  Cat does the same thing with her own son when she released Jamie Lannister in a bid to have her daughters back. Such act of treason disrupted Robb’s plan and might have even caused the red wedding. Would Tywin give his go ahead to such hideous act if he wasn’t 100% sure that Jamie is safe? I much doubt it.

So no, the Tullys aren't boring. They actually symbolise what Westeros is ie a pathetic place were opportunists prosper and geniunely good people (ie Edmure) lose everything. 

[estermonty python]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

It just seems to me like Martin was too lazy to give the Riverlands a proper great house and instead gave them the most generic words and sigil possible, which is  shame because most of his houses are awesome.

Gotta disagree with this.  The Tully words are important and distinctive, because they reveal who the family is and what the family prioritizes. 

Family

Family is prioritized above all else, period, even if its not the smart thing to do.  We see examples of this in, for instance, Cat freeing Jaime in the hopes he will deliver her daughters, and Lysa's pathological protection of Sweetrobin.  The mirror image of "family first" manifests itself in ugly ways, too, in irrationally rejecting their extended family (Cat rejecting Jon, and Lysa rejecting Sansa) based on a perceived threat to their nuclear family.  Thematically, Hoster forcing Lysa to have an abortion was the worst sin a Tully can commit (killing a member of the immediate family), which arguably led to the demise of the house - because if Lysa hadn't been driven semi-mad by the effects of the tansy, she might have joined the Vale to the Northern cause, and the Red Wedding might never have occurred.  

Duty

The Tullys have a long history of supporting various kings in losing efforts.  They supported the Mudd kings when they were defeated by the Vances, Lord Elston Tully was killed supporting the Blackwoods against Humfrey I (although the rebels won that one), and the Tullys supported the Blackwoods again in defeat to the Hoares.  We see that same dutiful stubbornness in scenes like Brynden holding Riverrun against Jaime, and Tully retainers Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger taking the black following the surrender of Riverrun.

Honor

There is virtually no treachery in the Tully history, as far as I can tell.  Maybe its because they rule over the Poland of Westeros, but they always seem to be allied with someone, and I don't see where they've ever really broken those alliances.  There appears to be a certain value placed on honor in battle, honor in action, honor in words, etc - hence Lysa's furor at Bronn's tactics in defeating Vardis Egen, or Cat being the first person to place any faith in Jaime's honor.  The Tullys seem weirdly OK with suffering honorable defeat, rather than achieving underhanded victory.  This is interesting to me.  It makes them natural allies with the Arryns, for one thing, and makes them more invested in the means than the ends, as a general statement of character.  

 

Maybe this is a weak defense, I don't know.  The main takeaway of the Tullys in the broad history of Westeros is that they tend to be incredibly loyal sidekicks in other people's wars.  Anyone who has ever been played Diplomacy knows that being a loyal sidekick is usually the only way to stay in the game when you control a geographically weak region (in that game, Italy), so they're just playing the hand they're dealt.  There's certainly room in the story for loyal friends, in my opinion!

[Ralphis Baratheon]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

The Arryns are only boring because the current generation sucks,

I have to take issue with this. Robert Arryn is many things but boring is not one of them. He actually does lots of interesting stuff when you think about it.

[TMIFairy]

14 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I have to take issue with this. Robert Arryn is many things but boring is not one of them. He actually does lots of interesting stuff when you think about it.

He just unlocked the "Weaned" achievement and is working on "Potty Trained"

[Lion of the West]

I don't think that the Tullys are boring its more that as a House, they have a trend of treason in their past and current time. And I think that's more of a trend for them than their supposed boring nature.

And I don't think that the Arryns are developed enough to be boring. Its more that they are undeveloped and more so than any other Great House. But hopefully Fire and Blood vol.1 will fix that little part, same with Harry the Heir.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

34 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

He just unlocked the "Weaned" achievement and is working on "Potty Trained"

Sure and because of those things he sneaks into Sansa's room suckles her teats then pisses her bed. Can that really be described as "boring."

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think that the Tullys are boring its more that as a House, they have a trend of treason in their past and current time. And I think that's more of a trend for them than their supposed boring nature.

And I don't think that the Arryns are developed enough to be boring. Its more that they are undeveloped and more so than any other Great House. But hopefully Fire and Blood vol.1 will fix that little part, same with Harry the Heir.

Really? They fought against Harren the Black, but I'd hardly call that treason. They weren't riverlanders, and terrible rulers besides. 

Sure, they were traitors to the Targaryens and only rebelled because of marriage allianes, which is pretty much as opportunistic as Tywin ever was, but that aside, I don't think they were traitors. And Aerys deserved to be dethroned anyway, imo.

[Lion of the West]

10 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Really? They fought against Harren the Black, but I'd hardly call that treason. They weren't riverlanders, and terrible rulers besides. 

Sure, they were traitors to the Targaryens and only rebelled because of marriage allianes, which is pretty much as opportunistic as Tywin ever was, but that aside, I don't think they were traitors. And Aerys deserved to be dethroned anyway, imo.

The way I see is that they kind of turn on many a king. I've got the following list.

Edmyn rebels against Harren the Black

House Tully first fights for Maegor and then turn against him.

Lord Grover wants to fight for Aegon II, his son and grandson essentially conducts a coup against their own lord to manipulate events so that they will join the Blacks. Perhaps they are right in joining the Blacks but their methods don't speak of upstanding honor.

Held true in regards to the Blackfyres - I'll give them that.

Hoster turned on the Targaryens for good marriages for his daughters.

Turned against House Baratheon, which they were instrumental in seating on the Iron Throne in the first place, after little more than decade despite the fact that there were two other Baratheons to pick between beyond the Baratheon they were pissed with.

As I see it the Tullys have only managed to hold faith against the Blackfyres and in every other conflict they are involved which isn't more or less "the whole realm against a minor region" mentioned there's some treason going on. And sure, for many of them you can make an argument. But I can't recall a single House that has as much shenanings and faithless dealings going on when Westeros goes into conflict. And explainations can only be used so long before they grow hollow and you start to see a pattern emerging.

[Clegane'sPup]

What is boring about the Tully’s?

The lack of sex, violence and lies?

Shoot, House Tully has it all. Hoster’s ward tries to fight a Stark for Cat. Hoster’s ward supposedly impregnates the daughter Lysa and abortion ensues.

Lysa has a rivalry with her sister that her sister knows nothing about.

Lysa is married (bargaining chip) off to an older man so Tully will supply troops and join in Robert’s Rebellion.

I’m still not sure what the Tansy bit is about. Maybe it is a homonym for moon tea or Tansy was a person.

AND, what is up with the feud betwixt Hoster and Blackfish? Chuckle, I doubt that the Hoster Blackfish feud will be addressed in upcoming books.

BUT maybe since Blackfish is out there somewhere swimming around it will come up in a conversation during 1000 pages in WoW.

[Little Bird of the North]

7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't think that the Tullys are boring its more that as a House, they have a trend of treason in their past and current time. And I think that's more of a trend for them than their supposed boring nature.

And I don't think that the Arryns are developed enough to be boring. Its more that they are undeveloped and more so than any other Great House. But hopefully Fire and Blood vol.1 will fix that little part, same with Harry the Heir.

This is true, and a better wording of what I was trying to get across. The Arryns definitely have not been developed as nearly as much as pretty much any other major house. Even the Tyrells, who we get no POVs from, have a lot of characters that make recurring appearances and are heavily involved in the current cogs of the game. What do we have from the Arryns? A dead hand, and a little boy who seems to mostly exist for the purpose of another character in Sansa.

[TMIFairy]

5 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Come on, man.  He's stronger than he looks; he's a mean shot with a porridge bowl;

Yes, here he has the "10% chance for crit" special!