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Sea Dragon

What or who is the tiger-woman?

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I have been reading the big world book and I came across this information. Who is this tiger woman and will we see her again somehow? The only tiger people I can think of are the tattooed people in Volantis. 

Thank you. 

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Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world). 
In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

 

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On 7/30/2017 at 7:38 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

probably a child of the forest. they have cat-like eyes, claws, and dappled skin. "tiger-woman" would be a fairly apt description

Wow. Thanks for the answer here. I did not know that the children of the forest could breed with humankind. That is interesting and opens up more magic in the story.

Thanks.

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On 7/30/2017 at 7:38 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

probably a child of the forest. they have cat-like eyes, claws, and dappled skin. "tiger-woman" would be a fairly apt description

So do lions.  Lots of similarities with what the Night's King did at the wall.  Betrayed his office, took an ice woman for a bride, made blood sacrifices, etc.  

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The tiger-woman is a figure from ancient legends that may or may not have existed 10,000 years prior to the events we read in the books.  She is mentioned in passing as having been married to the Bloodstone Emperor who may or may or not have existed ever. 

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What answer could you hope for that'd mean anything?

What does the tiger woman represent in the current series is I think a better question. The Bloodstone Emperor is clearly Euron.

Cersei would be the frontrunner I'd think, by way of a tiger's approximation to a lion.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What answer could you hope for that'd mean anything?

What does the tiger woman represent in the current series is I think a better question. The Bloodstone Emperor is clearly Euron.

Cersei would be the frontrunner I'd think, by way of a tiger's approximation to a lion.

Winds of Winter 'The Forsaken' sample chapter spoilers:

Spoiler

It seems that Falia Flowers is supposed to symbolise the tiger woman bridge to Euron's Bloodstone Emperor. Not only does she end up betrayed like Nissa Nissa, she also mentions that Euron gave her gowns and furs... and from AFfC we know that Euron's ship carries (among other things) tiger skins...

from 'The Reaver':

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Aye, he thought, a great victory for the Crow's Eye and his wizards. The other captains would shout his brother's name anew when the tidings reached Oakenshield. Euron had seduced them with his glib tongue and smiling eye and bound them to his cause with the plunder of half a hundred distant lands; gold and silver, ornate armor, curved swords with gilded pommels, daggers of Valyrian steel, striped tiger pelts and the skins of spotted cats, jade manticores and ancient Valyrian sphinxes, chests of nutmeg, cloves, and saffron, ivory tusks and the horns of unicorns, green and orange and yellow feathers from the Summer Sea, bolts of fine silk and shimmering samite . . . and yet all that was little and less, compared to this. Now he has given them conquest, and they are his for good and all, the captain thought. The taste was bitter on his tongue. This was my victory, not his. Where was he? Back on Oakenshield, lazing in a castle. He stole my wife and he stole my throne, and now he steals my glory.

 

 

And if sb wants, here's my post about that tiger woman from October 2016:

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In Chinese mythology white tiger symbolises autumn and the west, so if indeed the white-fire woman from vision is the tiger-woman of Yi Ti, that might suggest that the Bloodstone Emperor took some woman from the west as his wife... and of course Westeros comes to mind here... and of all westerosi races I think that the Children of the Forest are the most similar to felines, with their spotted skin, huge ears and green, gold and brown eyes... so if someone brought a COTF woman, the Yi Ti wouldn't know how to name her race, so they might name it after familiar animal from their region.... or the tiger-woman might have been one of the Ifequevron people. 

In some myths it is said that tiger's tail or body turns white after he reaches 500 years (COTF long lifespan?), another legends say that white tigers only appear when emperor or king of freat virtue reigns and the realm is in peace.

(YES, I want tigers to be somewhat rellevant to ASOIAF mythology and astronomy ;) )

Edited October 11, 2016 by Blue Tiger

Later I've found out that in the Norse Mythology there's a creature called Nisse - and we know that GRRM used to study Scandinavian culture:

From 'Dreamsongs' (can't remember which volume), by GRRM:

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My major was journalism, but I took a minor in history. My sophomore year I signed up for the History of Scandinavia, thinking it would be cool to study Vikings. Professor Franklin D. Scott was an enthusiastic teacher who invited the class to his home for Scandinavian food and glug (a mulled wine with raisins and nuts floating in it). We read Norse sagas, Icelandic eddas, and the poems of the Finnish patriotic poet Johan Ludvig Runeberg. I loved the sagas and the eddas, which reminded me of Tolkien and Howard, and was much taken with Runeberg’s poem “Sveaborg,” a rousing lament for the great Helsinki fortress “Gibraltar of the North,” which surrendered inexplicably during the Russo-Swedish War of 1808. When it came time to write term papers, I chose “Sveaborg” for my topic. Then I had an off-the-wall idea. I asked Professor Scott if he would allow me to submit a story about “Sveaborg” rather than a conventional paper. To my delight, he agreed. “The Fortress” got me an A … but more than that, Professor Scott was so pleased with the story that he sent it off to The American-Scandinavian Review for possible publication.

The first rejection letter I ever received was not from Damon Knight, nor Frederik Pohl, nor John Wood Campbell, Jr., but from Erik J. Friis, editor of The American-Scandinavian Review, who regretted “very much” having to return “The Fortress” to me. “It is a very good article,” he wrote in a letter dated June 14, 1968, “but unfortunately too long for our purpose.

And these 'nisses' are very similar to ASOIAF's Children of the Forest:

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Since nisser are thought to be skilled in illusions and sometimes able to make themselves invisible, one was unlikely to get more than brief glimpses of him no matter what he looked like. Norwegian folklore states that he has four fingers, and sometimes with pointed ears and eyes reflecting light in the dark, like those of a cat.

Therefore, I've suggested that the tiger woman of Bloodstone Emperor (who might be Azor Ahai, as @LmL could tell you) is the same person as Nissa Nissa (who might have been a COTF, as LML suggests).

There's one more thing I've found about about this tiger-woman, but I doubt GRRM knew this:

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So, the Great Empire of the Dawn's rulers are associated with gemstones... bloodstone, amethyst, jade, opaz etc.

It turns out that a gem called tiger eye and amethyst are both forms of quartz and share chemical formula 

  (silicon dioxide, SiO2)

 

Bloodstone is SiO2 as well - and that'd make sense since Bloodstone Emperor and Amethyst Empress are kin. But I doubt that GRRM actually thought about this 'tiger eye' stuff.

But, GRRM is familiar with this gemstone for what it's worth:

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"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

 

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On 8/1/2017 at 1:21 AM, Blue Tiger said:

In Chinese mythology white tiger symbolises autumn and the west, so if indeed the white-fire woman from vision is the tiger-woman of Yi Ti, that might suggest that the Bloodstone Emperor took some woman from the west as his wife... and of course Westeros comes to mind here... and of all westerosi races I think that the Children of the Forest are the most similar to felines, with their spotted skin, huge ears and green, gold and brown eyes... so if someone brought a COTF woman, the Yi Ti wouldn't know how to name her race, so they might name it after familiar animal from their region.... or the tiger-woman might have been one of the Ifequevron people. 

In some myths it is said that tiger's tail or body turns white after he reaches 500 years (COTF long lifespan?), another legends say that white tigers only appear when emperor or king of freat virtue reigns and the realm is in peace.

(YES, I want tigers to be somewhat rellevant to ASOIAF mythology and astronomy ;) )

Edited October 11, 2016 by Blue Tiger

This is a cool tidbit, I'm going to add it to my new essay and give you a hat tip. :)

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On 7/31/2017 at 7:39 PM, Sea Dragon said:

Wow. Thanks for the answer here. I did not know that the children of the forest could breed with humankind. That is interesting and opens up more magic in the story.

Thanks.

I've been kicking around an idea that this union of a human and a CotF (perhaps not by literal breeding but via bloodmagic and/or genetic engineering, similar to dragons being a mix to two otherwise unmixable species, and the Valyrians potentially having some dragon DNA) is the origin of CotF-like psychic abilities in humans (Warging, greensight, etc). The brown-haired First Men led by Garth Greenhand would be descendants of this union, while "First Men" families which predate Greenhand (Dayne, Hightower) have the lighter (more "Valyrian") features because they were a more pure form of humanity.

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1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

I've been kicking around an idea that this union of a human and a CotF (perhaps not by literal breeding but via bloodmagic and/or genetic engineering, similar to dragons being a mix to two otherwise unmixable species, and the Valyrians potentially having some dragon DNA) is the origin of CotF-like psychic abilities in humans (Warging, greensight, etc). The brown-haired First Men led by Garth Greenhand would be descendants of this union, while "First Men" families which predate Greenhand (Dayne, Hightower) have the lighter (more "Valyrian") features because they were a more pure form of humanity.

Hmm.... If this is true, the whole 'kingsblood' concept migh actually refer to the blood of Garth Greenhand - the COTF DNA or Green Men DNA (the Green Men might be some kind of COTF-human hybrid).

Some time ago I've made a lost of all houses that have or might have Garth's blood, and these are houses:

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Gardener, Stark, Oakheart, Redwyne, Ball, Peake, Florent, Lannister, Durrandon, Tarly, Hightower, Fossoway, Hewett, Bulwer, Crane, Beesbury, Rowan, Tyrell, Blackbar, Manderly, Norcross, Cupps, Ambrose, some Targaryens (Alicent Hightower descendants), some Freys (descendants of Jeyne Beesbury, Beony Beesbury, Baratheon, Hornwood, Lanny, Lannet, Lantell, Jast, Hoare (Lelia Lannister descendants), Targaryen (Jocelyn Baratheon descendants), Velaryon (via Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was), Longwaters, Greystark, Kastark, Thenn, Cerwyn, Umber, Royce, Rogers.

possibly: Osgrey, Swann, Blackwood, Tarbeck, Reyne, Vikary, Tarth, Bolling, Wensington, Smallwood, 

 

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On ‎1‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 6:21 PM, Blue Tiger said:

Therefore, I've suggested that the tiger woman of Bloodstone Emperor (who might be Azor Ahai, as @LmL could tell you) is the same person as Nissa Nissa (who might have been a COTF, as LML suggests).

Nah if GRRM wanted to make that connection he'd make it and he'd label the furs. This is Falia.

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In the Age of Heroes, the legends say, the ironborn were ruled by a mighty monarch known simply as the Grey King. The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose.

The wife he's taken so he may live beneath the waves. Breathe underwater. Skin change a kraken.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Nah if GRRM wanted to make that connection he'd make it and he'd label the furs. This is Falia.

The wife he's taken so he may live beneath the waves. Breathe underwater. Skin change a kraken.

Funny you should mention this... As in The Forsaken 

Spoiler

Falia mentions that Euron gave her furs, and from The Reaver we know that The Silence's holds contain tiger furs:

 

Aye, he thought, a great victory for the Crow's Eye and his wizards. The other captains would shout his brother's name anew when the tidings reached Oakenshield. Euron had seduced them with his glib tongue and smiling eye and bound them to his cause with the plunder of half a hundred distant lands; gold and silver, ornate armor, curved swords with gilded pommels, daggers of Valyrian steel, striped tiger pelts and the skins of spotted cats, jade manticores and ancient Valyrian sphinxes, chests of nutmeg, cloves, and saffron, ivory tusks and the horns of unicorns, green and orange and yellow feathers from the Summer Sea, bolts of fine silk and shimmering samite . . . and yet all that was little and less, compared to this. Now he has given them conquest, and they are his for good and all, the captain thought. The taste was bitter on his tongue. This was my victory, not his.

But I think that while Falia is a Nissa Nissa figure, she's not The Nissa Nissa. 

She's like Beric and Thoros, who have Azor Ahai symbolism and in some scenes play the role of Azor Ahai but are not The Azor Ahai.

Falia is a great Nissa Nissa as Child of the Forrest symbol because her father's sigil has oak symbolism. And House Hewett (at least methaporically) has blood of Garth the Green, via his son Owen Oakenshield.

 

@LmL, what do you think about this?

Btw, since we're on this topic, Balon's father Quellon might give us clues about the original Bloodstone Emperor/Azor Ahai. He died at the battle of the mouth of The Mander, where we find the mysterious Battle Isle... Did the first Azor Ahai perish there as well?

Quellon's third wife, Lady Piper of Pinkmaiden plays the role of his Nissa Nissa, as she comes to a foreign land and another culture (The Iron Islands), where she becomes pregnant and dies in childbirth, just like the original Nissa Nissa died (if LML's theory is true and indeed forging of Lightrbringer is a metaphor of procreation and she was a COTF/human woman who came to the Great Empire from abroad).

 

Joffrey is an solar Azor Ahai figure as well, at least in some scenes (that's why some characters call the red comet Joffrey's comet. He gets valyrian steel blades as well, black-red reforged Ice). 

And he has one scene where he metaphorically kills the COTF-cat-Nissa Nissa character to get her children (which can be metaphores for Lightbringer or the moon meteors coming from cracked second moon, which might be symbolised by Nissa Nissa lunar figure):
 

Quote

 

"The Lyseni still trade at King's Landing. Salladhor Saan has no reason to lie to me."
"I suppose not." The king ran his fingers across the table. "Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him." The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."
"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."


 

 

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2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Funny you should mention this... As in The Forsaken 

  Reveal hidden contents

Falia mentions that Euron gave her furs, and from The Reaver we know that The Silence's holds contain tiger furs:

 

Aye, he thought, a great victory for the Crow's Eye and his wizards. The other captains would shout his brother's name anew when the tidings reached Oakenshield. Euron had seduced them with his glib tongue and smiling eye and bound them to his cause with the plunder of half a hundred distant lands; gold and silver, ornate armor, curved swords with gilded pommels, daggers of Valyrian steel, striped tiger pelts and the skins of spotted cats, jade manticores and ancient Valyrian sphinxes, chests of nutmeg, cloves, and saffron, ivory tusks and the horns of unicorns, green and orange and yellow feathers from the Summer Sea, bolts of fine silk and shimmering samite . . . and yet all that was little and less, compared to this. Now he has given them conquest, and they are his for good and all, the captain thought. The taste was bitter on his tongue. This was my victory, not his.

But I think that while Falia is a Nissa Nissa figure, she's not The Nissa Nissa. 

She's like Beric and Thoros, who have Azor Ahai symbolism and in some scenes play the role of Azor Ahai but are not The Azor Ahai.

Falia is a great Nissa Nissa as Child of the Forrest symbol because her father's sigil has oak symbolism. And House Hewett (at least methaporically) has blood of Garth the Green, via his son Owen Oakenshield.

 

@LmL, what do you think about this?

Btw, since we're on this topic, Balon's father Quellon might give us clues about the original Bloodstone Emperor/Azor Ahai. He died at the battle of the mouth of The Mander, where we find the mysterious Battle Isle... Did the first Azor Ahai perish there as well?

Quellon's third wife, Lady Piper of Pinkmaiden plays the role of his Nissa Nissa, as she comes to a foreign land and another culture (The Iron Islands), where she becomes pregnant and dies in childbirth, just like the original Nissa Nissa died (if LML's theory is true and indeed forging of Lightrbringer is a metaphor of procreation and she was a COTF/human woman who came to the Great Empire from abroad).

 

Joffrey is an solar Azor Ahai figure as well, at least in some scenes (that's why some characters call the red comet Joffrey's comet. He gets valyrian steel blades as well, black-red reforged Ice). 

And he has one scene where he metaphorically kills the COTF-cat-Nissa Nissa character to get her children (which can be metaphores for Lightbringer or the moon meteors coming from cracked second moon, which might be symbolised by Nissa Nissa lunar figure):
 

 

Yeah that's a good catch - I think this occurred to me at some point but I forgot about it. I think I can fit in the Cersei section of my cat woman episode, hat tip to you.

Yeah I agree on the Falia Flowers thing - she's had her tongue torn out, the red smile of the weirwood. The name flowers and the house sigil and descent... Yeah. It all fits. 

Great find of Quellon, as I have interpreted The Red Kraken's and Euron's attack on Oldtown as BSE echoes. Third wife, interesting. How did the first 2 die? Are they all playing NN? Or is it a 3 forgings thing? Sorry I am feeling lazy right now

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35 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yeah that's a good catch - I think this occurred to me at some point but I forgot about it. I think I can fit in the Cersei section of my cat woman episode, hat tip to you.

Yeah I agree on the Falia Flowers thing - she's had her tongue torn out, the red smile of the weirwood. The name flowers and the house sigil and descent... Yeah. It all fits. 

Great find of Quellon, as I have interpreted The Red Kraken's and Euron's attack on Oldtown as BSE echoes. Third wife, interesting. How did the first 2 die? Are they all playing NN? Or is it a 3 forgings thing? Sorry I am feeling lazy right now

I think you should cover sample chapter spoilers...

It's worth to mention that Victarion's first two wives died as well, and she killed the third. Cregan Karstark 'has buried two wives already' and Alys fears that when she gived him a child, he'll kill her as well.

Since you've mentioned the Red Kraken, he died on the hands of of a girl he tried to take as salt wife, a lunar revange motif perhaps?

And he wielded Valyrian steel blade Nightfall, so his BE/AA symbolism is easy to spot.

Another 'Nissa Nissa Cat' figure is Lelia Lannister, The Queen of the Iron Islands:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lelia_Lannister

She has the 'weirwood stigmata' you've mentioned in the last episode. And she's called 'The Fairest Flower of the West'. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

I think you should cover sample chapter spoilers...

It's worth to mention that Victarion's first two wives died as well, and she killed the third. Cregan Karstark 'has buried two wives already' and Alys fears that when she gived him a child, he'll kill her as well.

Since you've mentioned the Red Kraken, he died on the hands of of a girl he tried to take as salt wife, a lunar revange motif perhaps?

And he wielded Valyrian steel blade Nightfall, so his BE/AA symbolism is easy to spot.

Another 'Nissa Nissa Cat' figure is Lelia Lannister, The Queen of the Iron Islands:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lelia_Lannister

She has the 'weirwood stigmata' you've mentioned in the last episode. And she's called 'The Fairest Flower of the West'. 

So you know what's really interesting about her? (Great catch by the way) She married the Ironborn King Harmund Hoare II, and he was the kooky one that tried to make the Drowned God the eighth god of the Seven. The eighth wanderer was the fire moon NN, who became the drowned goddess. Thats a reference to moons meteors drowning in the ocean, but also AA and / or NN going under the see, into the net. The weirwood stigmata for Lelia says the same. 

Leila means "dark" or "dark beauty," which is perfect for NN and the fire moon. :)

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1 hour ago, Aegon1FanBoy said:

I pray they are actual like were tigers females with tiger like features. The skin claws, tails but still have that feminie look 

In Chinese folklore, European's were-wolf's equivalent is the were-tiger.

So, maybe this 'tiger woman' was actually a warg/skinchanger from Westeros (or elsewhere) but in The Great Empire of the Dawn and Yi Ti (which are inspired by China) she was called 'tiger-woman'?

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On 8/6/2017 at 4:23 PM, Blue Tiger said:

In Chinese folklore, European's were-wolf's equivalent is the were-tiger.

So, maybe this 'tiger woman' was actually a warg/skinchanger from Westeros (or elsewhere) but in The Great Empire of the Dawn and Yi Ti (which are inspired by China) she was called 'tiger-woman'?

OOOOOOO i like that would make sense 

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On August 2, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Damon_Tor said:

I've been kicking around an idea that this union of a human and a CotF (perhaps not by literal breeding but via bloodmagic and/or genetic engineering, similar to dragons being a mix to two otherwise unmixable species, and the Valyrians potentially having some dragon DNA) is the origin of CotF-like psychic abilities in humans (Warging, greensight, etc). The brown-haired First Men led by Garth Greenhand would be descendants of this union, while "First Men" families which predate Greenhand (Dayne, Hightower) have the lighter (more "Valyrian") features because they were a more pure form of humanity.

Wow. Thanks again. I am still reading through the World of ice and fire book. I am enjoying it even though some parts are confusing. 

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