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Lady Fevre Dream

[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

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8 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Lena Headey has been good as Cersei, but the character doesn't deserve more than half the screentime and plot focus she gets.

Sadly Game of Thrones is now the Jon,Dany and Cersei show with a little Sansa thrown in. Every single other character is being used purely to support or prop up those characters. It's even more of a joke because Emilia, Kit and Sophie are probably the 3 weakest actors (aside from Isaac) in the main cast.

Jaime has been ruined, Littlefinger and Varys neutered, Arya ill-used, Bran an exposition machine and poor Tyrion now used to make generally useless statements to Dany or Jon. It's a travesty.

Here's the question: is Lena running rings around everyone--except the guy who plays the Hound--because of the material, or are the other heavy hitters phoning it in?

There are three levels of acting--excluding extras, bit players, and guys doing serviceable jobs in functional roles, like the guy who plays Qyburn--in Game of Thrones:

The Hopeless, including Kit Harington, Emilia Clarke, Sophie Turner

The Capable But Floundering, including Peter Dinklage, Aidan Gillian, and Maisie Williams

The Decent With No Material, including Diana Rigg and NCW

The Good If They Were On a Cartoon, like whoever plays Urine

Then there's Lena and the Hound, who are hitting it out of the park. They're the only ones rely wowing me. But they also both have meaty scenes to act. (Though Carol's are ridiculous.) Is that the real difference?

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16 minutes ago, darmody said:

Here's the question: is Lena running rings around everyone--except the guy who plays the Hound--because of the material, or are the other heavy hitters phoning it in?

There are three levels of acting--excluding extras, bit players, and guys doing serviceable jobs in functional roles, like the guy who plays Qyburn--in Game of Thrones:

The Hopeless, including Kit Harington, Emilia Clarke, Sophie Turner

The Capable But Floundering, including Peter Dinklage, Aidan Gillian, and Maisie Williams

The Decent With No Material, including Diana Rigg and NCW

The Good If They Were On a Cartoon, like whoever plays Urine

Then there's Lena and the Hound, who are hitting it out of the park. They're the only ones rely wowing me. But they also both have meaty scenes to act. (Though Carol's are ridiculous.) Is that the real difference?

I disagree with your Capable but Floundering category, except for maybe Aiden Gilles, whose actual performance comes across as forced and hammy nowin comparison to the early seasons.

Peter Dinklage and Maisie Williams have not been floundering. Both have been excellent but had poor material to work with. Peter I think has done the best he can considering his character has been totally shafted and is now pretty much just an advisor to Dany (and Jon) with his own arc given short shrift. Similarly, the quality of material for Maisie has gone down significantly the last few seasons, but her actual acting ability has improved a lot. She hasn't really been given a huge amount of conversations or great dialogue, but has delivered her lines very well and what she has done superbly, particularly in seasons 6 and 7 is wonderfully use her facial expressions to convey a wide range of emotions and internal conflicts. I think her expressions when killing Walder Frey, meeting with the Lannister soldiers, Nymeria and the perfect way she mimicked Rory as the Hound in her interactions with Hot Pie couldn't have been any more perfect.

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7 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's true. After being forced into retirement from the King's Guard, Larry should be Lord of Casterly Rock--assuming the Unsullied will eventually leave. Also, he should've been next in line after Tommen. That is, if there are no Baratheons left whatsoever.

Larry was Tommen's uncle(/father) and his closest male relative. If Carol is the legitimate queen in the eyes of the populace despite her terrorism, Larry could've been king following his backstabbing of Carol as soon as he could find her after seeing what became of the Sept. 

I don't remember for sure, but I think that (a) he explicitly turned down Casterly Rock, and any inheritance at all from Tywin, and (b) his sister had already inherited the Rock before he left the KG, so it's too late for him to inherit it from dad.

And I don't think Cersei automatically had to give up Casterly Rock when she made herself Queen—Kings traditionally keep Dragonstone until they explicitly choose to grant it to their heir, just like real-life English kings with Wales, except with fewer sheep.

So, I don't think he has anything.

But none of that should have any effect on him inheriting from sis, so he is presumably next in line for both the Iron Throne and the Rock. Especially since there are no other living relatives, not even second cousins with maternal Lannister blood or anything, in all of show!Westerlands, so who else could inherit?

And yes, I'm sure he could have stabbed her and declared himself King and the people of show!KL would just accept it. But, given the way the show!KL mob seems to work, I think that would work for pretty much anyone at this point. King Hot Pie? Well, he says he's King, and of course I believe him, because after all he's the King, so stop bothering me so I can cheer fanatically! If Dany ever comes to KL to challenge her, I think the mob will be confused, but they'll handle it by cheering for whichever one said the word "Queen" most recently and calling the other one a traitorous bitch whore murderer.

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Tyrells should have more knights than any other house.  And while they were "the knights of summer" they were hardly pushovers as the show implied.  Loras at the very least was skilled.  It would have been better if they'd mentioned Highgarden being more of a garden than a castle and used that as the reason for the ease of the Lannister Victory.

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[MOD]

Can we please not debate stuff in this thread?

I don't know how many more times we need to say it - this thread is not for debate or for trying to change other peoples' minds.  There are plenty of other threads for that purpose.  This thread is to blow off a little steam about the show (within the forum rules) and not have to defend your position.

Thanks in advance.

[/MOD]

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55 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I don't think you understand how money works.

They are not keeping Cersei around because Lena has a high salary. That would be the exact opposite of thinking about cash. See, Lena's $2.6M/episode deal doesn't mean that she gives D&D $2.6M every time they put her in an episode, it means they have to give her $2.6M every time they put her in an episode. So, if they use Cersei, instead of a character whose actor only makes $200K, that's $2.4M less money that they have to spend on other things, not $2.4M more. And having less money is, in general, bad, not good.

Of course there may be a reason to use Lena in spite of her salary—e.g., including a character that fans and critics like may mean better ratings, which ultimately means more money. But nobody would ever use her because of her salary.

And likewise for CGI. You don't add more dragons because CGI costs money. Again, people don't give you money for the privilege of using their CGI, they take away your money to create that CGI for you, so it's less money for you, and, again, less money is bad, not good.

Sorry but maybe you don't understand how money works, because Lena's contract is probably not just about her salary but also about her appearances. No actor would sign a contract that gives him millions per episode and then depend on the mercy of producers to use him in as few episodes as they want. That would be pointless, wouldn't it? No, when actors like Lena sign contracts like that one they always secure the number of episodes they appear in, so @Iron Mother is right, Lena's and other actors' contracts definitely influenced the plot.

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On 7/31/2017 at 6:52 PM, SerMixalot said:

"There are no nipples on these breast plates! Put Nipples on these breast plates! NOW Nipples on Breast Plates! NOW!"

:D Funny. THAT line of dialogue would have made the scene a lot more believable than Sansa who knows nothing of armor, correcting a trained blacksmith on how to make armor.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

I don't remember for sure, but I think that (a) he explicitly turned down Casterly Rock, and any inheritance at all from Tywin, and (b) his sister had already inherited the Rock before he left the KG, so it's too late for him to inherit it from dad.

And I don't think Cersei automatically had to give up Casterly Rock when she made herself Queen—Kings traditionally keep Dragonstone until they explicitly choose to grant it to their heir, just like real-life English kings with Wales, except with fewer sheep.

So, I don't think he has anything.

But none of that should have any effect on him inheriting from sis, so he is presumably next in line for both the Iron Throne and the Rock. Especially since there are no other living relatives, not even second cousins with maternal Lannister blood or anything, in all of show!Westerlands, so who else could inherit?

Larry indeed turned down Tywin's legacy. That was when he was a King's Guard and couldn't accept it anyway. Then he changed his mind and accepted daddy's deal to get out of the Guard in exchange for sending Tyrion to the Wall. Didn't happen, but he had already flip-flopped on his unwillingness once. 

After Larry turned on daddy and sister/lover, freeing his brother to his father's doom, I don't think there was anything to stop him from accepting the lordship. Assuming he was free, that is. His son eventually freed him by retiring him from the order.

In the meantime, I don't see why the Rock would've gone to Carol. Weren't either Tywin's brother Kevan or his grandson Tommen next in line? Lordship would've been passed to Kevan/Tommen theoretically while Larry was still King's Guard. By the time Kevan/Tommen were blowed up/walked out a window, Larry was out of the Guard and free not to be passed over again. 

 

As for the lack of Lannister relatives, remember, Carol is ruling as a Baratheon, technically. At least I think she is. Tommen was supposedly a Baratheon, and she is a Baratheon widow. So not only is there not a single male Lannister left, there are no male Baratheons, either. 

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45 minutes ago, darmody said:

Larry indeed turned down Tywin's legacy. That was when he was a King's Guard and couldn't accept it anyway. Then he changed his mind and accepted daddy's deal to get out of the Guard in exchange for sending Tyrion to the Wall. Didn't happen, but he had already flip-flopped on his unwillingness once. 

After Larry turned on daddy and sister/lover, freeing his brother to his father's doom, I don't think there was anything to stop him from accepting the lordship. Assuming he was free, that is. His son eventually freed him by retiring him from the order.

In the meantime, I don't see why the Rock would've gone to Carol. Weren't either Tywin's brother Kevan or his grandson Tommen next in line? Lordship would've been passed to Kevan/Tommen theoretically while Larry was still King's Guard. By the time Kevan/Tommen were blowed up/walked out a window, Larry was out of the Guard and free not to be passed over again. 

 

As for the lack of Lannister relatives, remember, Carol is ruling as a Baratheon, technically. At least I think she is. Tommen was supposedly a Baratheon, and she is a Baratheon widow. So not only is there not a single male Lannister left, there are no male Baratheons, either. 

There are no Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells, Tullys (yeah I'm not counting Edmure until the show does something of his character). It's like half of the realm got Castamere'd

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So bizarre that they decided to have characters talk openly about accents when there is hardly any consistency over accents and from where they derive. I don't really care much that accents are all over the place but drawing attention to it was silly.

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4 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

So bizarre that they decided to have characters talk openly about accents when there is hardly any consistency over accents and from where they derive. I don't really care much that accents are all over the place but drawing attention to it was silly.

I wondered about that too. What's different from Missandei, Arya, Daenerys and Sansa's accent, for example?

Davos apparently has a Flea Bottom accent, which turns out to be a Geordie (Newcastle Upon-Tyne) accent, but Gendry was also from Flea Bottom and he didn't speak anything like Davos.

I was always rather annoyed that we didn't see the accents following the map of Great Britain. I know Ned, Jon and Robb spoke with northern England accents and I know Catelyn was from the Riverlands so wouldn't have a northern accent, but I expected Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon to have accents more like Ned, Jon and Robb given they were born in the north and live among northern people.

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Oh boy, here we go.

Castles are useless in show universe. Atleast that explains why Dragonstone was deserted in the beginning of the season. Remember Theon's speech that 30(?) or was it 20 good men, could hold Winterfell against 500... yeah, don't think so.

Big plan that the Unsullied are now forced to march over the continent and are split from Daenarys, well.... expect Euron can teleport in hours from one side to the other and even Jamie can march his soldiers in no time. Atleast make the errors on both sides, but well how would you make Dany lose without unfair advantages.

Also Team Dany, has absolut no clue what is happening, King in the North, what? Where are the Armies of our Enemies? Huh? Not like we have freaking Dragons that could fly out of Archers range and let Dany scout the fuckn realm , Armies are pretty easy to spot even from distance. But i guess Qyburn designed a cloaking device with his Balista, since Euron uses it aswell, in the first battle you could say he had the storm, but with the unsullied,... they just didn't expect it or what?

And I don't even want to try anymore to defend some plotholes, like oh yeah Euron in the books has prob. trained some sort of magic (objects what ever) and could possible cover his fleet in a storm, cause on the one hand the show just tells us what we should know/feel and on the other just explains nothing... seems like they didnt thought about it to start with.

I guess the biggest problem is that the casual viewers don't know who's armie it is when the "main head" (Jamie, Euron, Olenna ect.) is not part of it. -> Therefore those people have to magicly appear whenever those wars happen.... I just hope we get some good fight scenes now and they dont mess up the Jon's parents reveal.

I'm just sad that the show i started to love cause you could always analyze and theorize about whats to come based on inconsistencies that had a reason in show universe. Now it's just, oh yeah that detail... Just ignore it, it's the show, that scene was cool ect.

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15 hours ago, teej6 said:

So D&D brainstormed with Cogman (and possibly the intern who suggested Olly's role in S5) on how to make Dany less invincible and Cersei more of a threat in S7. And the brilliant plan they came up with is: (1) keep Dany and her dragons grounded coz she's too important, (2) dumb down St Tyrion and make his strategies seem like child's play compared to Euron and Cersei's brilliance, contrary to what was shown in S2 where Tyrion was mopping the floor with stupid Cersei (because who's paying attention to the details, all the viewers care about is shock and awe), (3) let's have Randyll Tarly a seasoned battle commander and loyal Tyrell bannerman defect because Olenna has lost sight of reality and is all out for revenge (nevermind that her nemesis is a mad woman who just blew up a good part of KL and its inhabitants) and (4) lastly, but most importantly let's give the Lannisters the NK's power to magically multiply their forces. 

Great point about the story being delegated to college interns. I often wondered about this while watching Season 6's nonsensical moments. Are D&D at the point where they feel GoT is old news and they are focused on their next project? I keep picturing a big room filled with eager young interns. Dan and Dave's people come in with pieces of paper and shout "Okay. Season 7, Episode 2. Who wants it?" Rinse and repeat for all the episodes. "Episode 3. Who want's it?" Are they financially set with enough F***K You! money that they are half-assing it to get to the end? The show plays out like a kid who want's to get his college paper finished but is almost out of time. He started out patient, thorough and methodical, but then rushed it and the overall product suffered because of it. Who knows. I just watching to see what happens at this point. 

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On 2017-7-31 at 9:43 PM, falcotron said:

Actually, I'll bet he did. If you look at typical historical oaths—not just in Europe, but almost anywhere with a feudal-like system—the vassal always promises unconditional fealty. Of course Westeros isn't feudal Europe, but there's no reason to believe that would be any different.

A vassal provides unconditional fealty for himself & himself only. Fealty is about a mans personal relationship to the monarch it doesn't mean for generations. When a king dies lords must travel to swear fealty to the new king & the reigning king will get lords sons to swear fealty to them when they come of age. 

Fealty could also be just for a time period with lords swearing fealty a number of times in their lifetime. 

Feudalism grew out of the old germanic kin pledges & is very personal.

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2 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

So bizarre that they decided to have characters talk openly about accents when there is hardly any consistency over accents and from where they derive. I don't really care much that accents are all over the place but drawing attention to it was silly.

I guess that might have to do with bringing Gendry back. Old smuggler from Flea Bottom, getting young man from Flea Bottom into the team perhaps?

Though I agree that line was just stupid, including as a reminder/reveal that Davos and Gendry share a common area of King's Landing as the location where they grew up.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I guess that might have to do with bringing Gendry back. Old smuggler from Flea Bottom, getting young man from Flea Bottom into the team perhaps?

Though I agree that line was just stupid, including as a reminder/reveal that Davos and Gendry share a common area of King's Landing as the location where they grew up.

I had exactly the same thought when I watched it.

Yes, the line is stupid, but now they have to remind the audience of everything in case we get lost. :rolleyes:

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9 hours ago, darmody said:

They're going to need all the Valyrian steel swords they can get to fight the White Walkers. I'd rather have one of those than an obsidian sword. 

 

Every character with a Valyrian steel sword will be important in the coming Epic War against Death Itself:

Jon, obviously. (Will he offer his Bear Sword to Jorah when Jorah comes home to Mommy Dragon? Maybe.)

Brienne of Tarth

Larry, who will betray Carol and join the fight

Now Sam, who will be important because George Martin likes fat men who read a lot, for some reason

There's the dagger from Season One, which was Littlefinger's. Did Littlefinger hold onto it after that brothel scene? Doesn't matter, he won't be out fighting. 

My post was a rhetorical question, but.......my issue with the unmentioned Heartsbane is that, in this world, even before any knowledge of needing Valyrian steel to fight WW and wights, these swords were important heirlooms.  People don't just shrug off their basically disowned son running away with them.  They don't hand wave it away as not important yet.  A man like Randyll Tarly would have been up the next morning after the theft, on Sam's ass, reclaiming it.  IF he didn't manage that, I still can't see why.........neither character has mentioned it again.  Of course I know the show will address it again, once it's time to use the damn sword.  Then again, I never count on this show to do anything right, so.......I take that back, LOL  Who knows if Heartsbane will do anything but molder in The Citadel with Sam and the mite filled scrolls. 

My initial point was how important these swords are in themselves, not about their newly found purpose.  Look how the Starks tried to get back Ice during the Wot5K, in negotiations.  Valyrian steel is so coveted that the Ds decided to show Tywin doing the desecration of melting down Ice......because it was so meaningful.  Heartsbane is all of that to a Tarly, maybe even more......being a slightly less important House, but sporting a Valyrian steel sword.  Another point was......this is a thread for complaints, and YES, it's my damn complaint, compounded now over a few episodes. 

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There is no question that Sam's sword will show up again when needed, LOL.  Of course it could have been addressed with a single line or two spoken by Tarly about the loss of his heirloom sword, but the show doesn't even bother.

I still think that Jorah is going to have to infect someone with greyscale, I can't imagine the show would go to so much effort with an entire plot line around greyscale all for nothing.  He gets it, then he's cured, voila, same as it ever was.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There is no question that Sam's sword will show up again when needed, LOL.  Of course it could have been addressed with a single line or two spoken by Tarly about the loss of his heirloom sword, but the show doesn't even bother.

I still think that Jorah is going to have to infect someone with greyscale, I can't imagine the show would go to so much effort with an entire plot line around greyscale all for nothing.  He gets it, then he's cured, voila, same as it ever was.

LOL  God Bless You for still having faith they used the greyscale for anything other than soap opera angst.  LOL  

ETA:  You know I adore you.  :cheers:

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

There is no question that Sam's sword will show up again when needed, LOL.  Of course it could have been addressed with a single line or two spoken by Tarly about the loss of his heirloom sword, but the show doesn't even bother.

I still think that Jorah is going to have to infect someone with greyscale, I can't imagine the show would go to so much effort with an entire plot line around greyscale all for nothing.  He gets it, then he's cured, voila, same as it ever was.

On another show with better writers, I would agree with you. But I think on this show, the greyscale is just going to be a big nothing.  Jorah gets cured and that's the end of it. You just wait and see.

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