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How did The Reach lose?

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The Tyrells were introduced as being weaker than the Lannisters and the Starks in one of the early seasons, I think season 2 or 3. Could be that they were upgraded somewhat later, could be that they just became richer in food and coin. I don't keep track of that crap.

The idea that things would go this way makes no sense whatsoever. But then, the entire show makes no sense.

Edited by Lord Varys

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Tyrells were introduced as being weaker than the Lannisters and the Starks in one of the early seasons, I think season 2 or 3. Could be that they were upgraded somewhat later, could be that they just became richer in food and coin. I don't keep track of that crap.

The idea that things would go this way makes no sense whatsoever. But then, the entire show makes no sense.

I think the show has forgotten how big the Tyrell army was and could be still. It does look like they have become richer in gold and food and Cersei realises the importance of taking Highgarden at the cost of Casterly Rock. There is a lot of things I have overlooked and just assumed something happened etc but its getting very unrealistic now and as you say its making no sense what soever. 

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13 hours ago, athmystikal said:

Because the plot demanded it.

Yep. Bad writing and sloppy story telling made the Reach lose and Olenna die. 

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13 hours ago, Spaßvogel said:

This all reeks of the showrunners artificially building up Cersei's forces just to make things challenging.  There are so many things wrong with how strong her position is, that it is just becoming more and more laughable.

This is exactly how I feel. It was so forced. 

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Well, if we are going by show, then its already been stated that highgarden doesn't have much military power, no leaders, Randyll Tarly (best banner man) defected, were taken by surprise, and it was hinted that Lannisters were planning to take it anyway. So, if we go by show dynamics its really not that difficult to understand. The show has blown the Lannister men as being the strongest army and also they did hype the Tarly army too.

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14 hours ago, Spaßvogel said:

This all reeks of the showrunners artificially building up Cersei's forces just to make things challenging.  There are so many things wrong with how strong her position is, that it is just becoming more and more laughable.

Yup, she should be a sitting duck. Instead, her ground forces are stronger than ever and Euron has stolen Littlefinger's time travel device... it's tough to swallow

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Even with the Tarly's and subsequent bannermen's defection taking Highgarden (which should have been well supplied and should have had a sizeable defense force) should not have been such a cake walk, it was like they saw the Lannister army coming and forgot to lock the gates.  Those in charge of its defense would have to be the most inept bunch to lose that quickly.  

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6 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Even with the Tarly's and subsequent bannermen's defection taking Highgarden (which should have been well supplied and should have had a sizeable defense force) should not have been such a cake walk, it was like they saw the Lannister army coming and forgot to lock the gates.  Those in charge of its defense would have to be the most inept bunch to lose that quickly.  

Unforunately we dont know exact figures of either army really only guess, but I would have said the Tyrells would have been able to muster together around 10-20 thousand troops. As you say even with the Tarly's and some other Lords of the Reach betraying house Tyrell its seems like it was a walk in the park. Even without a leader/commander they just have to try kill as many Lannister soldiers regardless of how bad their formation is etc. They are a rich house so should be full of good resources to put up a decent defence. 

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I actually thought it was nicely done

 

There are no more Tyrells outside of Olenna. She's obviously too old to have any more kids. I can understand why certain houses would want to replace a house that is going to die. They showed that the majority of the lords from the reach sided with Jamie. Why is it so hard to understand why the reach did not win?

 

 

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I would agree with the assertion that Tarly most likely wasn't the only house to defect to Cersei's side. It's also implied in the books on several occasions that House Tyrell is generally disliked due to their claim on Highgarden is based upon the fact they helped Rhaegar - Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that the Houses of the Reach were probably waiting for their opportunity to strike. Not to mention that House Tyrell (atleast in the show) is basicly extinct.

Edited by SilverAlmighty

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My take on the battle is a lot different. Unfortunately, we didn't see much of the battle, just the after effects. I was under the assumption that the Reach mobilized all it's forces, including the Tarley's and smaller vassal defenders amongst their midst. They began their march out of the Reach, and when beyond the Castle Walls, were almost immediately ambushed by the Lannisters. At roughly that same time, Tarley and his defectors, that were intertwined with the tyrell loyalist, turned on them, making it a relatively easy battle. This would be consistent with both the Red Wedding and Tywins assault on KL during the battle of the bastards. The show just did a really piss poor job of showing us what happened. 

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4 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

I actually thought it was nicely done

 

There are no more Tyrells outside of Olenna. She's obviously too old to have any more kids. I can understand why certain houses would want to replace a house that is going to die. They showed that the majority of the lords from the reach sided with Jamie. Why is it so hard to understand why the reach did not win?

 

 

The realms are fiercely proud of their lineage. Reachmen as Reachmen, Riverlords as Riverlords, etc.

If House Tyrell was doomed already, why would Randyll Tarly invade with a foreign westerlands army, when by nature of the shows moronic political plotting, House Tarly is naturally positioned to step into the vacuum as the next overlords of the Reach?

At the side of the army of the woman who murdered their last overlords family? That's needlessly bad pr as new overlords.

Tarly going to Olenna, and overriding her schemes with a simple stand.

"Lady Olenna, House Tyrell has lost the game against House Lannister....."Steely eyed glower......"But the Reach itself is still strong, and i mean to skin any lions who would wander into our lands.... My lands, my lady.... House Tarly WILL have the high seat, but House Tyrell will be avenged."

Tarly proves a pragmatic lord, ambitious bu but not ruthless beyond decency. 

He doesn't need the Lannisters for his Houses ascent..In fact, their support is a poisoned coin rotting his coinpurse.

 

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I didn't even think of this but it is a VERY good question. I don't know the troop #s (where can I find those?) BUT even not knowing you know Cersei has to have many at KL to protect her and it so having tens of thousands of men marching on Highgarden seems unrealistic. The price of being a hardcore fan lol.

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6 minutes ago, The Frosted King said:

The realms are fiercely proud of their lineage. Reachmen as Reachmen, Riverlords as Riverlords, etc.

If House Tyrell was doomed already, why would Randyll Tarly invade with a foreign westerlands army, when by nature of the shows moronic political plotting, House Tarly is naturally positioned to step into the vacuum as the next overlords of the Reach?

At the side of the army of the woman who murdered their last overlords family? That's needlessly bad pr as new overlords.

Tarly going to Olenna, and overriding her schemes with a simple stand.

"Lady Olenna, House Tyrell has lost the game against House Lannister....."Steely eyed glower......"But the Reach itself is still strong, and i mean to skin any lions who would wander into our lands.... My lands, my lady.... House Tarly WILL have the high seat, but House Tyrell will be avenged."

Tarly proves a pragmatic lord, ambitious bu but not ruthless beyond decency. 

He doesn't need the Lannisters for his Houses ascent..In fact, their support is a poisoned coin rotting his coinpurse.

 

He doesn't need the Lannisters, sure but by allying with them, they legitimize him claim. 

As far as people knowing that she killed the Tyrells, i'm not sure about that. Sure, they probably suspect her but lets not forget, he uncle, son, cousin..etc have all died as well. Lets also not forget, not everyone was fond of religious fanatics in the city. They was shown numerous of times that they were bad for business. 

 

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7 minutes ago, TyrionFan82 said:

I didn't even think of this but it is a VERY good question. I don't know the troop #s (where can I find those?) BUT even not knowing you know Cersei has to have many at KL to protect her and it so having tens of thousands of men marching on Highgarden seems unrealistic. The price of being a hardcore fan lol.

The army that marched onto Highgarden was the army stationed in Casterly Rocj, not kings landing. 

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10 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

He doesn't need the Lannisters, sure but by allying with them, they legitimize him claim. 

As far as people knowing that she killed the Tyrells, i'm not sure about that. Sure, they probably suspect her but lets not forget, he uncle, son, cousin..etc have all died as well. Lets also not forget, not everyone was fond of religious fanatics in the city. They was shown numerous of times that they were bad for business. 

 

If Hot Pie in the riverlands knows that Cersei blew up the sept, then everyone in Westeros knows it.

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Also if he doesn't ally with Cersei, then who is he going to ally with? Dany would torch him with her dragons. Is he just going to take highgarden and sit out the war. He took out one of Dany's allies

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1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

My take on the battle is a lot different. Unfortunately, we didn't see much of the battle, just the after effects. I was under the assumption that the Reach mobilized all it's forces, including the Tarley's and smaller vassal defenders amongst their midst. They began their march out of the Reach, and when beyond the Castle Walls, were almost immediately ambushed by the Lannisters. At roughly that same time, Tarley and his defectors, that were intertwined with the tyrell loyalist, turned on them, making it a relatively easy battle. This would be consistent with both the Red Wedding and Tywins assault on KL during the battle of the bastards. The show just did a really piss poor job of showing us what happened. 

This is some crazy head-canon. How'd you think this one up?

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6 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

This is some crazy head-canon. How'd you think this one up?

Foreshadowed in the Jamie Randyl Tarley scene. 

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6 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Foreshadowed in the Jamie Randyl Tarley scene. 

it's amazing how different people come to different conclusions. I think you're trying to rationalize what is presented to us. I think it's fine to take the show at face value and that nothing of the sort happened.

We even see Tarly marching with the Lannisters on Highgarden. How could he be with the Tyrells at the same time?

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