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Fearodh

How did Cersei become smart?

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I al really puzzled by her miraculous transformation. Since her walk of atonement she has done A LOT of good choices.

I mean in the past she created blunder after blunder, in the books even more than in the show. She gave power to the High Sparrow, managed to piss off her Tyrrell "partners" really well etc.

And now?

She blows up the sept. Even though their son kills himself over it, she keeps Jamie at her side. She brings Mad Man Euron into Team Lannister and is super successful with it. Even though he pisses off Jamie, he still stays at her side. She develops a weapon against dragons. She brings Tarly into Team Lannister although he is from the Reach and sworn to house Tyrrell. She anticipates the move against CR and binds the Unsullied there, meanwhile crushing Highgarden and she convinces the Iron Bank to back AFTER ALL she has done before.

I do enjoy her current streak of success as Dany came with massive power to Westeros and this kinda balances the map. Yet if it weren't for Cerseis many blunders, she would never have been in such a shit position. What are your thoughts on this?

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I wouldn't give her any of the credit for her successes in the most recent episode, I think that's all Jaime - including having the Greyjoys burn the unsullied ships. 

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14 hours ago, Fearodh said:

I al really puzzled by her miraculous transformation. Since her walk of atonement she has done A LOT of good choices.

I mean in the past she created blunder after blunder, in the books even more than in the show. She gave power to the High Sparrow, managed to piss off her Tyrrell "partners" really well etc.

And now?

She blows up the sept. Even though their son kills himself over it, she keeps Jamie at her side. She brings Mad Man Euron into Team Lannister and is super successful with it. Even though he pisses off Jamie, he still stays at her side. She develops a weapon against dragons. She brings Tarly into Team Lannister although he is from the Reach and sworn to house Tyrrell. She anticipates the move against CR and binds the Unsullied there, meanwhile crushing Highgarden and she convinces the Iron Bank to back AFTER ALL she has done before.

I do enjoy her current streak of success as Dany came with massive power to Westeros and this kinda balances the map. Yet if it weren't for Cerseis many blunders, she would never have been in such a shit position. What are your thoughts on this?

There is a massive sway of power has happened, Dany came across with Id say an army of atleast 150,000 and 3 dragons. Cersei has somehow out thought them at every single step. This is down to D&D unrealistic thought procedures. 

Jamies character has gone to shit now, he started off at this arrogant prick but we realised he had a heart and with the help of Brienne he became a reformed character who personally i grew to like more, so what have they done kept him with Cersei, hes just a lap dog. Cersei didnt bring Randyll Tarly to the table, he only answered her summon, it was Jamie who talked him into betraying the Tyrells and fighting with the Lannisters.

I believe the Iron bank hasnt actually backed Cersei but she has promised to pay her debt in full within two weeks.

Personally if she hadnt not had her many blunders she wouldn't be queen right now.

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Cersei has always been clever, she's simply brushed off as 'stupid' because she doesn't often plan ahead and is driven largely by vengeance and volatile emotions. Most of the people who cross her, though, end up dead - either directly or indirectly as a result of her decisions. Despite that happening multiple times her enemies and rivals continue to underestimate her. Their arrogance, then, proves to be their downfall.

Cersei is also prepared to go further than most and if backed into a corner there is no telling what she would do. 

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ARRRGH. Hate this because I hate Cersei. I agree with others on all fronts. She's not so much smart as lucky to have Jamie (on that later). She seems to think she's in the in driver's seat as far as the IBB goes....I suspect something will go wrong. I mean you can't base your decision (regarding the IBB) on a saying. Okay going back around now and I know the book and show are different (by far) but Jamie isn't this in the books by the end or even on the show....this seems out of place.

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10 minutes ago, Graeham said:

Cersei has always been clever, she's simply brushed off as 'stupid' because she doesn't often plan ahead and is driven largely by vengeance and volatile emotions. Most of the people who cross her, though, end up dead - either directly or indirectly as a result of her decisions. Despite that happening multiple times her enemies and rivals continue to underestimate her. Their arrogance, then, proves to be their downfall.

Cersei is also prepared to go further than most and if backed into a corner there is no telling what she would do. 

I totally agree that she is capable of things that couldnt be imagined. Ive never classed her as stupid but shes always done things without thought, straight forward murder. But now shes sacked high garden, predicted the unsullied sacking of casterly rock then to trap them their with eurons fleet. Its just the shear extreme shift of power from Daenerys to Cersei all of a sudden. Shes unrealistically pulling out all the stops.

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Well Dany is not playing very smart. And Cersei has Jaime, Randyll Tarly and Euron backing her, so  I wouldn't give her all the credit. All Dany had was Tyrion, Greyworm, and Yara as battle commanders.  When you look at it from afar it actually makes sense that she's winning, Jaime is not seen as bright but he's actually quite capable, I actually liked his thought process for casterly rock and highgarden. And Euron is the best fleet commander, and Randyll Tarly is another really good commander

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3 minutes ago, Crona said:

Well Dany is not playing very smart. And Cersei has Jaime, Randyll Tarly and Euron backing her, so  I wouldn't give her all the credit. All Dany had was Tyrion, Greyworm, and Yara as battle commanders.  When you look at it from afar it actually makes sense that she's winning, Jaime is not seen as bright but he's actually quite capable, I actually liked his thought process for casterly rock and highgarden. And Euron is the best fleet commander, and Randyll Tarly is another really good commander

Daenerys is not playing smart at all, after she hears about the sacking of Highgarden and the unsullied it will be a fuck it attitude, people are going to get roasted by my dragons. If Daenerys stays out the sea Euron doesnt really impose a massive threat then. The reason why there has been this massive shift in power is the writers are making it difficult for daenerys. Its builds tension and makes it better when she comes out on top. Randyll tarly wont be around much longer and Im not sure how long Euron has left either. Daenerys doesnt have Yara anymore, and in terms of tyrion as a battle commander, Id used that term loosely for him.  

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3 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Daenerys is not playing smart at all, after she hears about the sacking of Highgarden and the unsullied it will be a fuck it attitude, people are going to get roasted by my dragons. If Daenerys stays out the sea Euron doesnt really impose a massive threat then. The reason why there has been this massive shift in power is the writers are making it difficult for daenerys. Its builds tension and makes it better when she comes out on top. Randyll tarly wont be around much longer and Im not sure how long Euron has left either. Daenerys doesnt have Yara anymore, and in terms of tyrion as a battle commander, Id used that term loosely for him.  

Yes, she's probably going to use her dragons to defeat Euron and Randyll. And all this is a build up for a compelling show.  But it would be cool if her dragons don't do that much damage. Cersei does have that huge crossbow for dragons, Euron has a cheat code that allows him to disappear and reappear.  But, yea she is probably going to win with her dragons, just think it would be cool if her dragons are not effective then she really has the think outside of the box. However, she did lose horribly in the general game with strategy.

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This has bothered me also this season, but I have come to the realization that it is not so much Cersei being smart as it is a matter of her opponents doing very stupid things.  Tyrion, Greyworm, Varys, Missandei, Yara, Ellaria and Dany, this is the Targaryen military brain trust.  Not too much wartime experience among the group especially strategists. Tyrion is the most experienced in that area and his experiences are being knocked out before the battle of the Green Fork and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Grey Worm might be an effective commander but he not a planner, and Yara most of her fighting experience came through raiding and pirating very different from war.  The others have even less experience in matters of war.  From the beginning this was handled wrong.  There is no way an experienced commander with the plan that they had would have landed their forces on Dragonstone, heading to Sunspear would have been the correct move for the plan.

Look at the other side Jamie is an experienced wartime commander and strategist he was a key figure in the Greyjoy Rebellion and has been a top commander in the Lannister armies since the fighting began after Robert's death.  Euron also an experienced wartime strategist and commander he was the one who pulled off the burning of the Lannister fleet to start the Greyjoy rebellion so again a serious man.  So its not really a matter of Cersei being smart more of a she has a better more experienced brain trust than Dany does.

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She's probably going to get the Iron Bank on her side, what if she hires the Golden Company or faceless men (not likely but sounds cool)

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Just now, Crona said:

She's probably going to get the Iron Bank on her side, what if she hires the Golden Company or faceless men (not likely but sounds cool)

I very much doubt it not after episode 4, her repayment of her debt relies on the gold from Highgarden. The conversation between Cersei and Tycho went with Cersei promising in two weeks her debt will be paid, itll be poetic that she doesnt pay her debt. With Jamie in tow with all the gold from Highgarden it only seems fitting they are ambushed and torched in transit as punishment.

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38 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I very much doubt it not after episode 4, her repayment of her debt relies on the gold from Highgarden. The conversation between Cersei and Tycho went with Cersei promising in two weeks her debt will be paid, itll be poetic that she doesnt pay her debt. With Jamie in tow with all the gold from Highgarden it only seems fitting they are ambushed and torched in transit as punishment.

I can see that, Dany finally brings out her dragons. I doubt she will know that the Lannisters have stolen highgarden's gold though. Most likely he will leave it while escaping Dany

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14 hours ago, SerMudz said:

I wouldn't give her any of the credit for her successes in the most recent episode, I think that's all Jaime - including having the Greyjoys burn the unsullied ships. 

I would point to Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman.  The same people we can point to for Sansa's sudden burst of common sense.  These are no longer the same characters that GRRM created.  They are purely the creation of HBO's show writers.

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I would point to Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman.  The same people we can point to for Sansa's sudden burst of common sense.  These are no longer the same characters that GRRM created.  They are purely the creation of HBO's show writers.

Hear hear! 

 

*applause*

 

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6 hours ago, Graeham said:

Cersei has always been clever, she's simply brushed off as 'stupid' because she doesn't often plan ahead and is driven largely by vengeance and volatile emotions. Most of the people who cross her, though, end up dead - either directly or indirectly as a result of her decisions. Despite that happening multiple times her enemies and rivals continue to underestimate her. Their arrogance, then, proves to be their downfall.

Cersei is also prepared to go further than most and if backed into a corner there is no telling what she would do. 

Yes, she has always been clever and able to manipulate people and situations. However, while she often seems unpredictable and makes irrational choices, these are more often than not related to her children. But now that her kids are all gone, she doesn't have much left to lose, except her own life and Jaime's. I think that gave her the ability to act more in cold blood than before.

However, she still is (and will always be) far from such cold masterminds as her father Tywin.

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3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I would point to Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman.  The same people we can point to for Sansa's sudden burst of common sense.  These are no longer the same characters that GRRM created.  They are purely the creation of HBO's show writers.

This is true - but the show runners didn't really have a choice as GRRM hasn't finished writing his characters.

5 hours ago, xander_blackfyre said:

This has bothered me also this season, but I have come to the realization that it is not so much Cersei being smart as it is a matter of her opponents doing very stupid things.  Tyrion, Greyworm, Varys, Missandei, Yara, Ellaria and Dany, this is the Targaryen military brain trust.  Not too much wartime experience among the group especially strategists. Tyrion is the most experienced in that area and his experiences are being knocked out before the battle of the Green Fork and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Grey Worm might be an effective commander but he not a planner, and Yara most of her fighting experience came through raiding and pirating very different from war.  The others have even less experience in matters of war.  From the beginning this was handled wrong.  There is no way an experienced commander with the plan that they had would have landed their forces on Dragonstone, heading to Sunspear would have been the correct move for the plan.

Look at the other side Jamie is an experienced wartime commander and strategist he was a key figure in the Greyjoy Rebellion and has been a top commander in the Lannister armies since the fighting began after Robert's death.  Euron also an experienced wartime strategist and commander he was the one who pulled off the burning of the Lannister fleet to start the Greyjoy rebellion so again a serious man.  So its not really a matter of Cersei being smart more of a she has a better more experienced brain trust than Dany does.

This is also true, in the show world. And it does resonate some logic - they are a bunch of idealists that are used to winning primarily through luck and good intentions.

Dany lied her way into getting an Unsullied army, screwed her way into getting the Second Sons and magiced her way into getting the Dothraki. The slaves she freed were of course going to fight for her but no-one could mange their cities after she gave them freedom. She solved these problems by burning some boats, putting her boyfriend in charge after dumping him and sailing away.

I find it deliciously hilarious that Tyrion is proving to be such a pathetic strategist and hand. But, when you think about it, it also kind of makes sense. Tyrion was a good schemer as hand in King's landing, he played that game well - but his battle strategy was effectively blow them up and hold the fort. And, as valiant as he was, he still would have lost the fort if not for his dad, whom he shot.

Though the dialogue was poor, it is telling that Olenna (the experienced one) told Dany to be a dragon and not give a stuff about getting the people on side. This is a dark show, telling a dark, almost nihilistic story - it makes sense that Dany would fail with good intentions. And, there is some semblance of a logical story being told - it's just presented with some of the worst dialogue and editing possible ATM.

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7 hours ago, xander_blackfyre said:

This has bothered me also this season, but I have come to the realization that it is not so much Cersei being smart as it is a matter of her opponents doing very stupid things.  Tyrion, Greyworm, Varys, Missandei, Yara, Ellaria and Dany, this is the Targaryen military brain trust.  Not too much wartime experience among the group especially strategists. Tyrion is the most experienced in that area and his experiences are being knocked out before the battle of the Green Fork and the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Grey Worm might be an effective commander but he not a planner, and Yara most of her fighting experience came through raiding and pirating very different from war.  The others have even less experience in matters of war.  From the beginning this was handled wrong.  There is no way an experienced commander with the plan that they had would have landed their forces on Dragonstone, heading to Sunspear would have been the correct move for the plan.

Look at the other side Jamie is an experienced wartime commander and strategist he was a key figure in the Greyjoy Rebellion and has been a top commander in the Lannister armies since the fighting began after Robert's death.  Euron also an experienced wartime strategist and commander he was the one who pulled off the burning of the Lannister fleet to start the Greyjoy rebellion so again a serious man.  So its not really a matter of Cersei being smart more of a she has a better more experienced brain trust than Dany does.

Jorah's coming home......

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8 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I totally agree that she is capable of things that couldnt be imagined. Ive never classed her as stupid but shes always done things without thought, straight forward murder. But now shes sacked high garden, predicted the unsullied sacking of casterly rock then to trap them their with eurons fleet. Its just the shear extreme shift of power from Daenerys to Cersei all of a sudden. Shes unrealistically pulling out all the stops.

Yeah but it's made clear that Cersei had nothing to do with the Lannister's plan in this episode - Jaime was responsible for all that and got his inspiration from what happened to him at the Whispering Wood. I'd say what's happening is less about showing Cersei as being unrealistically smart and more about showing Jaime as being a far more adept commander and strategist than anyone expected he would be, since he's always been so reckless in the past. But that was when he had his sword hand and only cared about getting in the thick of the combat. Now he's using his head.

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