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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXIX: On all fronts...

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1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

So ridiculous: Sansa, who has never read anything but stupid tales of Jonquil and Florian is now pushing around experienced maesters and seasoned army leaders with advices on warfare, smithing, granaries? Ridiculous.

Sansa was brought up learning how to run household. That is the type of education that high born ladies receive as they are expected to run their husbands household when they are off to war. In fact in the books when Littlefinger is in the Vale playing his games with the Lords Declarant it is Sansa who is left behind running the Eyrie.

As far as the deal with the armor. I don't have a problem with that. She just spent half of last season hanging around the northern army, sitting in on Jon's war council. Surely she could have picked up a few things there.

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1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

So ridiculous: Sansa, who has never read anything but stupid tales of Jonquil and Florian is now pushing around experienced maesters and seasoned army leaders with advices on warfare, smithing, granaries? Ridiculous.

Sansa is a highborn lady so she was educated better than 99,99% of Westerosi. 

 

1 hour ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Why is Sandra wearing a Maesters ring? Seriously look at it when they walk together, its the same.

Her actions make no sense whatsoever. Suddenly she knows everything about grain, logitics and battle armor? She never read a book in her life and didnt have that kind of education.

It also makes her previous decisions worse, because now we cant say she was stupid and must assume she did everything on purpose. Like not telling Jon about the Vale Army, trusting LF and getting raped, undermining Jon in front of everyone, etc. Terrible writing.

She was well educated, people. She grew up in a castle as the daughter of Lord of WF. She received a proper education. Actually, throughout the books, it has been said that save the numbers, Sansa excelled in all of her studies.

The issue is that show's canon doesn't take her actions as treason. 

Please tell me that bolded part doesn't mean what I think it means. 

Once again, characters will be smart and stupid as plot demands it. Plot gives them intelligence, plot takes it away.

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2 hours ago, Jasemina said:

what didnt surprise me and that i was expecting but still bothered me was that sansa already betrayed jon...now that bran is back, even though jon is chosen as the king of the north by all lords and stuff...she wants bran to be the ruler as he is the only 'trueborn' son of  ned stark left...so whatever jon did up until then didnt matter for sansa and proved that she doesnt really see jon as a brother but a protecter or tool maybe? im   just glad bran gave a her a good reply and said he wont be the lord of winterfell..not that it would matter since he cant bear any heirs due to his condition

No, Lord of Winterfell.  He doesn't have to be KitN.

Also, Bran doesn't need her to tell her the obvious that he already knows.  He knows he's the last surviving male heir, so what is it Sansa is giving away exactly?

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22 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

No, Lord of Winterfell.  He doesn't have to be KitN.

Also, Bran doesn't need her to tell her the obvious that he already knows.  He knows he's the last surviving male heir, so what is it Sansa is giving away exactly?

Her title. She is the Lady of Winterfell. She wasn't giving Bran Jon's title, she was giving him hers.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Her title. She is the Lady of Winterfell. She wasn't giving Bran Jon's title, she was giving him hers.

I think that is most likely.  A King is not a Lord and vice versa.

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4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Sansa was brought up learning how to run household. That is the type of education that high born ladies receive as they are expected to run their husbands household when they are off to war. In fact in the books when Littlefinger is in the Vale playing his games with the Lords Declarant it is Sansa who is left behind running the Eyrie.

As far as the deal with the armor. I don't have a problem with that. She just spent half of last season hanging around the northern army, sitting in on Jon's war council. Surely she could have picked up a few things there.

Agreed.  I thought it was common knowledge that high born ladies grew up learning how to manage a household - that was their primary duty (after producing heirs of course).  Plus not only has she spent a lot of time with Jon, before that she was there with Ramsey.  She was a spoiled brat at the beginning but she quickly grew out of that because her survival depended on it.  She had to learn to be astute or die.

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5 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Cersei : I am the queen of the seven kingdoms.

Daenerys : I was born to rule.

Sansa : do we have enough food to feed everyone?

Ever heard the expression "An army runs on its stomach"? (or something to that effect)

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Her title. She is the Lady of Winterfell. She wasn't giving Bran Jon's title, she was giving him hers.

The point remains that she wasn't telling him anything he didn't already know.  In fact, he told her something she didn't already know....he can't be lord over anything because he is otherwise occupied.

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19 hours ago, Risto said:

Arya is coming and I feel we'll see, what Martin said, "sorting some issues" between her and Sansa. I expect to see some confrontations, especially since LF is around, But between Sansa owning LF this season, Bran being omnipresent and Arya having a good record in killing, he is toasted.

With more than half their family gone and the maturing they've had to do to survive, I expect Arya and Sansa will ultimately forget their previous childish differences and unite. And the fact that Arya is going home to Winterfell instead of to KL to kill Cersei hopefully means she will give up her personal vendetta for the greater good.

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8 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

So ridiculous: Sansa, who has never read anything but stupid tales of Jonquil and Florian is now pushing around experienced maesters and seasoned army leaders with advices on warfare, smithing, granaries? Ridiculous.

That's because she is now clearly a "player" in the game of thrones, and is therefore automatically an expert on everything.  She learned a tremendous amount from Littlefinger in the Vale about granaries.  

Oh no wait, she spent practically no time in the Vale and agreed to marry Ramsay Bolton in order to get revenge for the Red Wedding.  Shouldn't she be executed as a traitor or something?  The show would be a lot less annoying without her.

 

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2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

That's because she is now clearly a "player" in the game of thrones, and is therefore automatically an expert on everything.  She learned a tremendous amount from Littlefinger in the Vale about granaries.  

Oh no wait, she spent practically no time in the Vale and agreed to marry Ramsay Bolton in order to get revenge for the Red Wedding.  Shouldn't she be executed as a traitor or something?  The show would be a lot less annoying without her.

 

As has been commented on repeatedly, Sansa spent her life being trained to be the lady of a household, which means this is all stuff she's been brought up to do since she was a little kid. 

And it's always ridiculous how Sansa saved the North and Jon from being wiped out by the Boltons by getting the army of the Vale on their side, and yet some people keep declaring that "treason." Seriously, people, try looking the word "treason" up in a dictionary, because some of you think it means the exact opposite of what it actually means.

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5 hours ago, Illiterati said:

The point remains that she wasn't telling him anything he didn't already know.  In fact, he told her something she didn't already know....he can't be lord over anything because he is otherwise occupied.

Yeah, but it also shows her character. And these days, with all the talk that she wants North for herself, it seems almost needed to point out that Sansa was actually ready to give up her given title.

3 hours ago, Rubicante said:

The show would be a lot less annoying without her.

Given that out of two characters from the books who went through amazing change (Sansa and Jaime), she is the one whose character hasn't been completely and utterly destroyed (at least not like Jaime's has), I think we are good with her. 

And as Tyrion said, she will survive us yet :D

11 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Cersei : I am the queen of the seven kingdoms.

Daenerys : I was born to rule.

Sansa : do we have enough food to feed everyone?

There is a theme to Sansa's road to rulership position and food seems to be in the core of it. During the Riot of KL, Sansa spoke to Joffrey about showing mercy and giving food to commoners. The same thing pertains in the books as we know that in ADWD, Jon plans to send ravens to Eyrie and ask for food. I think it is rather refreshing to have someone taking care of the problems of smallfolk. All these Queens are more concerned with armies, battles, paying the debts, but Sansa does what, well not Ruling Queen, but Queen Consort is supposed to do. It just speaks what a great team she and Jon are.

1 hour ago, Thor Odinson said:

And it's always ridiculous how Sansa saved the North and Jon from being wiped out by the Boltons by getting the army of the Vale on their side, and yet some people keep declaring that "treason." Seriously, people, try looking the word "treason" up in a dictionary, because some of you think it means the exact opposite of what it actually means.

If I say this once, I have said it 1000 times. You simply have to look at how characters in the story look at that. Jon and Northmen, Valemen and LF, no one is looking at that as some sort of treason. Therefore, the narration simply excludes the possibility to discuss it as one.

It is whole another story whether in normal circumstances, where logic prevails, such thing would be called a treason. But, every literary work has its rules, and this one is no exception. Simply, if someone doesn't make a point of something inside the universe, there is no point to that.

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41 minutes ago, Risto said:

It just speaks what a great team she and Jon are.

I think that The food's idea of Sansa will be crucial later in the story and I'm pretty sure that WF will be one of a very little list of cities still standing after the war, Stannis is the king who cared and so is Sansa

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51 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think that The food's idea of Sansa will be crucial later in the story and I'm pretty sure that WF will be one of a very little list of cities still standing after the war, Stannis is the king who cared and so is Sansa

Stannis wasn't the only one who cared. But Sansa is the only one who can be put behind to organize the logistics of the war while the main King/Queen (most likely Jon and Dany) lead dragons and armies to war. I actually see her as being the pillar for the society to gather around while the battles rage in the North. And there we'll see how fundamentally she is different from Cersei.

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Cersei : I am the queen of the seven kingdoms.

Daenerys : I was born to rule.

Sansa : do we have enough food to feed everyone?

I like this. It effectively works out to...

Cersei : It's all about me!

Daenerys : It's all about me!

Sansa : How can we help the people?

Which says quite a bit about their respective characters

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10 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

And it's always ridiculous how Sansa saved the North and Jon from being wiped out by the Boltons by getting the army of the Vale on their side, and yet some people keep declaring that "treason." Seriously, people, try looking the word "treason" up in a dictionary, because some of you think it means the exact opposite of what it actually means.

Why didn't Sansa tell Jon she had the support of the Vale army prior to engaging Ramsay in battle?  Instead she allowed Jon to essentially engage in a suicidal attack with no hope of winning.  Furthermore, with the Vale army from the get go, Jon and Sansa may have had more leverage in negotiating for Rickon's life.

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8 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

Why didn't Sansa tell Jon she had the support of the Vale army prior to engaging Ramsay in battle?  Instead she allowed Jon to essentially engage in a suicidal attack with no hope of winning.  Furthermore, with the Vale army from the get go, Jon and Sansa may have had more leverage in negotiating for Rickon's life.

Negotiate with Ramsay? with that sadist psychopath? poor Rickon was doomed the moment he set foot in Winterfell.

and someone asked Sophie Turner the same question in SDCC 2016:

"Sophie, why didn't Sansa just tell Jon about the Vale army?" "the writers didn't tell me. there is no in-universe reason. it was just to build up the tension of the Vale army coming and to make the scene dramatically satisfying."

They wanted a LOTR style deus ex machina so they made that happen by throwing logic out of the window.

 

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2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Why didn't Sansa tell Jon she had the support of the Vale army prior to engaging Ramsay in battle?  Instead she allowed Jon to essentially engage in a suicidal attack with no hope of winning.  Furthermore, with the Vale army from the get go, Jon and Sansa may have had more leverage in negotiating for Rickon's life.

I've read this argument a trillion times and it's maybe the most outdated argument in GOT's history and the answer is so simple, It does not even require 5 seconds of thinking :

 If Sansa wanted to betray Jon : Jon is an obstacle for her to get the north then she would let Ramsay kill him in the BotB and then attack Ramsay with the Vale's army but she did save Jon from Ramsay with the vale's army

I suggest to rewatch the season : she told him to wait and he refused then she made a call to the Vale's army and the army saved the day, you can't blame Sansa for the stubbornness of Jon, he did things as he likes so she did things as she likes, in the end, the result is that she saved Jon and Winterfell.

I can reverse the question and ask : why Jon doen't want to listen to Sansa and it still a completely valid question.

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