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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXIX: On all fronts...

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6 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

"versed in the traditional feminine arts" = Like baking lemoncakes, sweing, table manners, saying MyLady and MyLord...

Sandra is the polar opposite of Arya. She wasn't shooting bows, chasing cats, having swordfight lessons because she was stubborn and boyish.

And chasing cats mean that someone is good in managing a castle? Being boyish is indication of intelligence? Arya is intelligent but not because she was boyish and stubborn, or because she was shooting bows and chasing cats. It is because she is very perceptive person.

Same with Sansa. Her interests doesn't mean she is not intelligent (unless you want to make a point girly women are not intelligent, which, is wrong on so many levels). Sansa's interests don't make her stupid. Her naivete did. Well, she is no longer naive, so you do the math.

Once again, women in this setting were not just sitting around doing nothing. Being a Lady of the castle means that you have to know the entire logistics and the management of the castle. You would be in charge of organizing a lot of things. That is why they are all being educated. 

2 hours ago, greensleeves said:

Reminder:

1) According to the books, Sansa can read and write better than any of her brothers.

2) Liking feminine things does not make you dumb. 

3) Thinking that feminine people are dumb is pretty sexist. And also, coincidentally, dumb.

Amen :D 

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

And chasing cats mean that someone is good in managing a castle? Being boyish is indication of intelligence? Arya is intelligent but not because she was boyish and stubborn, or because she was shooting bows and chasing cats. It is because she is very perceptive person

It's mentionned in the books that Arya was better than Sansa in two disciplines : equitation and domestic economy, as her sister is 4 years older looks like a good sign of intelligence that she was better at mathematics (but Arya has a more practical intelligence, while Sansa was probably more a litterary)..

It also shows the girls were getting other courses, more useful for a ruler's wife than just embroidery, cooking and music.

Finally in the show it was said several times Sansa designs her dresses herself (it's actually the very first thing she gets to speak about, to Cersei season 1 episode 1), so it's logical she may have had costume designer ideas like adding leather to a breastplate.

Edited by Lord Freypie

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9 minutes ago, Lord Freypie said:

It's mentionned in the books that Arya was better than Sansa in two disciplines : equitation and domestic economy, as her sister is 4 years older looks like a good sign of intelligence that she was better at mathematics (but Arya has a more practical intelligence, while Sansa was probably more a litterary)..

It also shows the girls were getting other courses, more useful for a ruler's wife than just embroidery, cooking and music.

Finally in the show it was said several times Sansa designs her dresses herself (it's actually the very first thing she gets to speak about, to Cersei season 1 episode 1), so it's logical she may have had costume designer ideas like adding leather to a breastplate.

Yes, throughout the books, it has been mentioned that Sansa is not good with numbers. On the other hand, she was in charge of one of the biggest castles in the country, Eyrie and she did a rather good job. We see entire staff of Eyrie respecting her. I also agree that education for women included more than just embroidery. Actually, I think they never learn how to cook :D 

When it comes to this scene, the beginning was good. I really liked when she gathered Maester and Lord Royce. She asked what she needed to know, but them the breastplate thing happened. I think that the scene could have done differently. There were so many ways to make a point, the breastplate thing wasn't the best.

But, you do have a point about her designing dresses. More than that, she made Jon's cape and sown the fur on it. So, she may know about it too. That still doesn't explain why the smith didn't.

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15 hours ago, Risto said:

This is why I didn't like Jon's "progressive" speech about women fighting. Simply, not EVERYONE will fight. Even the armies have the cooks, smiths, you know, non-fighting personnel. And they are essential that those who fight have a chance against the enemy. 

And I would agree with @Raksha 2014, it is so sad the writers' imagination is so limited. 

Well, when the chips are down, everyone will have to fight, so they might as well learn how. Even the cooks at Castle Black fought in "The Watchers on the Wall."

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7 hours ago, Lord Freypie said:

Finally in the show it was said several times Sansa designs her dresses herself (it's actually the very first thing she gets to speak about, to Cersei season 1 episode 1), so it's logical she may have had costume designer ideas like adding leather to a breastplate.

Good call, I have never seen it from that perspective :mellow:.

6 hours ago, Risto said:

On the other hand, she was in charge of one of the biggest castles in the country, Eyrie and she did a rather good job.

Nope, the Eyrie is in fact rather small with only a few people in the household.

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On Invalid Date at 2:19 AM, OldGimletEye said:

it still isn't a good idea to withhold vital information from him.

I assume you refer to the battle of bastards. Had I been one of the participating Lords or army leaders (Tormund, Lady Mormont, etc.), I would have refused to follow any of the Starks into battle once again. Jon showed himself incapable of keeping his nerves and emotions under control, blowing up the whole agreed defensive strategy. And Sansa led in the absolutely necessary forces to make a victory possible after some hours of figth in which assumably half of the 2.000-3.000 men Jon had gathered must have been killed ( none of the heroes, of course).

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Don’t fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you’ve seen before.

I think that this lesson wasn't a philosophical one (LF doesn't do philosophy) but rather it is the ultimate one : it describes the mind of LF and show the difference between the true future's vision of Bran and calculated predictions of the future of LF :

  • One can't never know : the enemy of today can become a friend tomorrow and the friend of today can become an enemy tomorrow (in fact it happens so often in reality with the political coalitions)
  • he takes an ongoing event and he predicts every outcome of it, for each outcome he will do a to-do list in his mind so when it happens it wouldn't be a suprise and he was already prepared for it

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5 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Don’t fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you’ve seen before.

I think that this lesson wasn't a philosophical one (LF doesn't do philosophy) but rather it is the ultimate one : it describes the mind of LF and show the difference between the true future's vision of Bran and calculated predictions of the future of LF :

  • One can't never know : the enemy of today can become a friend tomorrow and the friend of today can become an enemy tomorrow (in fact it happens so often in reality with the political coalitions)
  • he takes an ongoing event and he predicts every outcome of it, for each outcome he will do a to-do list in his mind so when it happens it wouldn't be a suprise and he was already prepared for it

The simplest explanation is that LF majored in Predictive Analysis at the Citadel sometime between season 6 and 7.

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9 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

The simplest explanation is that LF majored in Predictive Analysis at the Citadel sometime between season 6 and 7.

Yes, Predictive analytics

I even heard that the CIA have a software running on a supercomputer that can predict geopolitical events in the world with an outstanding accuracy

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Nope, the Eyrie is in fact rather small with only a few people in the household.

Yeah, Eyrie is not that big, but nevertheless, a girl of 13 running it, it does speak about her abilities.

 

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Oh seven hells! I finally figured out who Sansa reminds me of. Let's see if the book readers can guess right.

It's someone that Jon interacts with at the Wall in ADwD. Someone who disagrees with Jon constantly, who is more concerned with southern politics than the threat from the north and who is a bean counter....

Gods, I hope her character gets better development in future episodes!  :lol: 

 

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On 8/2/2017 at 10:59 PM, OldGimletEye said:

Agree. I'm not sure why hashing out their differences in private is so hard. It makes them both look bad.

D&D thought it made a more dramatic scene? Or perhaps to illustrate that although they have both learned a tremendous amount, they still have some maturing to do. 

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FOLKS, JUST TO REMIND YOU THAT REVEALING AND DISCUSSING INFORMATION FROM LEAKED EPISODE IS FORBIDDEN UNDER THE FORUM'S RULES. PLEASE TRY NOT TO GET YOURSELF IN ANY SORT OF TROUBLE. 

Edited by Risto

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On 8/3/2017 at 11:53 PM, greensleeves said:

Reminder:

1) According to the books, Sansa can read and write better than any of her brothers.

2) Liking feminine things does not make you dumb. 

3) Thinking that feminine people are dumb is pretty sexist. And also, coincidentally, dumb.

 

 

I think it's quite obvious that Sansa, and Jon as well, have been shown to have learned and grown a lot, but they are both still young and are going to make mistakes. Perhaps what some people see as bad writing is actually to illustrate this. 

In regards to Sansa specifically, so far this season she mentioned to Jon that she learned a great deal from Cersei, and Tyrion told Jon that she is smarter than she lets on. Last season told LF that if he didn't know about Ramsey then he was stupid, if he did then he betrayed her. So while they could be developing her character a little better, I don't think they're doing as bad a job as others think.

I am afraid a lot of plot & character development is going to suffer because of shortening the last two seasons. That's why it pisses me off so much that they are compressing them. It doesn't make sense. 

 

 

 

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On 8/4/2017 at 9:22 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, when the chips are down, everyone will have to fight, so they might as well learn how. Even the cooks at Castle Black fought in "The Watchers on the Wall."

 

I doubt that everyone will be able to fight.  There are bound to be some amputees, arthritic old people, who maybe could swing a cane at a wight/walker before being killed.  And if there aren't a group of people doing some organized weaving and stitching, etc., the forces of the North, at least those coming out of Winterfell, will be fighting without proper gloves, socks, cloaks, and will either get frostbite or pneumonia or both, and they will die, possibly before getting a chance to fight. George Washington's troops were in terrible condition at Valley Forge, and that was in a Mid-Atlantic climate; imagine them stuck in Siberia without proper clothing, or think about Napoleon's armies dying on the march back from Moscow.

I would think that there are at least five or ten people in Winterfell who are just never going to be able to hold their own against a White Walker (probably a lot more, but there are many who could be taught to use fire-tipped arrows or somehow find another way to use fire against the WW).  Sansa is probably one of them.  She'd be put to better use directing the old and infirm and semi-infirm and even some nimble-fingered kids under the age of 10 to make warm clothing for the fighters.  And of course, there is the question of food and water; if they don't have enough for more than a year, they'll all die; unless another Northern Lord could take them all in (?doubtful, I think).

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Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't one of the things Great Ladies learned during their education was how to maintain and upkeep a castle? I feel like that would be some reason why Sansa has knowledge on the subject. She was the eldest daughter of the Warden of the North and thus was most likely destined to be a Great Lady. She would probably be taught how to manage a castle, which includes grain, overseeing other people, etc.

 

Granted, they might not have shown it the best way with the armor thing but I'm also thinking that a lot of their men are Knights of the Vale (unless I'm mistaken and they left), the Vale is in the South and they might not have to make such hardy preparations for Winter like the people of the North do.

 

Either way, I believe Sansa is a really smart character and shouldn't be considered naive or stupid, maybe in the beginning when she was a 13 year old sheltered girl taught her role in life was to marry a great lord, have his babies, and keep his castle, but not now.

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On 8/5/2017 at 5:13 PM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I doubt that everyone will be able to fight.  There are bound to be some amputees, arthritic old people, who maybe could swing a cane at a wight/walker before being killed.  And if there aren't a group of people doing some organized weaving and stitching, etc., the forces of the North, at least those coming out of Winterfell, will be fighting without proper gloves, socks, cloaks, and will either get frostbite or pneumonia or both, and they will die, possibly before getting a chance to fight. George Washington's troops were in terrible condition at Valley Forge, and that was in a Mid-Atlantic climate; imagine them stuck in Siberia without proper clothing, or think about Napoleon's armies dying on the march back from Moscow.

I would think that there are at least five or ten people in Winterfell who are just never going to be able to hold their own against a White Walker (probably a lot more, but there are many who could be taught to use fire-tipped arrows or somehow find another way to use fire against the WW).  Sansa is probably one of them.  She'd be put to better use directing the old and infirm and semi-infirm and even some nimble-fingered kids under the age of 10 to make warm clothing for the fighters.  And of course, there is the question of food and water; if they don't have enough for more than a year, they'll all die; unless another Northern Lord could take them all in (?doubtful, I think).

Did you read what I wrote? They'll have to fight, so they might as well learn how when the time comes. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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