Castles are basically useless apparently

[Gaz0680]

7 hours ago, Eli Stark said:

I think the show has always went without explaining many things, but because the books existed, you could fill in the blanks and knew what was being alluded to.  My wife (never read the books) and I (read them all) have watched all the seasons, and even from season 1, she would be asking me questions about things that didn't seem clear.  Now that no one has the books, the holes (that were always there) are more noticeable.

Plus, I do think they are rushing a little.  HBO seems determined to stick to their 8 season plan while George may or may not be able to wrap up his story in just two more books based on the level of detail and back-story he always seems to give.

Yes, there were plot holes and inconsistencies in seasons 1-4. However, there were nowhere near as many or as blatantly obvious as some in seasons 5-7. Its not just the big moments either, its the general quality of writing for the normal conversations that define characterisation has declined markedly. 

Everyone pretty much has split personalities now. The writing, though not perfect, was a lot more consistent in the early seasons.

[Tywinelle]

55 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Yes, there were plot holes and inconsistencies in seasons 1-4. However, there were nowhere near as many or as blatantly obvious as some in seasons 5-7. Its not just the big moments either, its the general quality of writing for the normal conversations that define characterisation has declined markedly. 

Everyone pretty much has split personalities now. The writing, though not perfect, was a lot more consistent in the early seasons.

Absolutely true.  I get very frustrated when things are implied or alluded to because it's so unrealistic especially in life or death situations.  For example, the way the Sept scene was written.  Margaery being vague when she argued with the High Sparrow because she could sense something was up but she went on about "Cersei understands the consequences blah blah blah".  If a normal person felt their life was on the line they wouldn't argue in a round about, indirect way.

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, Tywinelle said:

Absolutely true.  I get very frustrated when things are implied or alluded to because it's so unrealistic especially in life or death situations.  For example, the way the Sept scene was written.  Margaery being vague when she argued with the High Sparrow because she could sense something was up but she went on about "Cersei understands the consequences blah blah blah".  If a normal person felt their life was on the line they wouldn't argue in a round about, indirect way.

The thing that I really hated about that scene is that I didn't understand why faith militant blocked the exits preventing anyone from leaving.  It was almost like they were given direction from D & D "You guys need to find every member of the faith militant and make sure they are in the sept.  You also need to prevent Margery, Mace and the High Sparrow from leaving, as well as any spectators."   

This is a problem I am currently having with the show, everything is accomplished too easily, which results in these big moments not being earned.  Some examples include

1. Arya killing every single member of House Frey

2. Sam curing Jorah's greyscale overnight 

3. Euron locating Yara's ships

4. The Unsullied taking Casterly Rock

5. Euron catching the Unsullied fleet off guard and destroying all of their fleet

6. Jaime taking Highgarden

What else am I missing?

 

[storm.131]

3 hours ago, Rubicante said:

The thing that I really hated about that scene is that I didn't understand why faith militant blocked the exits preventing anyone from leaving.  It was almost like they were given direction from D & D "You guys need to find every member of the faith militant and make sure they are in the sept.  You also need to prevent Margery, Mace and the High Sparrow from leaving, as well as any spectators." 

 

That made me so angry too!  It was obvious that the decision was influenced by the CGI budget but IT JUST DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!  Also, it would have actually made for a better scene to let the people spill out of the Sept.  They would have died anyway because it was too late to escape to safety but it would have been more logical because there was no real reason to stop them from leaving.  It was also illogical for the square and streets around the Sept to have been deserted.  This was a major event in the city but no one waited outside to await the verdict???  Come on!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Didn't Machiavelli write essentially that? That castles were useless?

[falcotron]

22 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Didn't Machiavelli write essentially that? That castles were useless?

You're thinking of Chapter 20 of The Prince, but that's not at all what it says.

First, he's talking about governing strategy, not battle tactics. Of course castles work in battle. The problem is when you think you stop worrying about popular revolts because you can ride them out in your fortress. His conclusion is "All these things considered then, I shall praise him who builds fortresses as well as him who does not, and I shall blame whoever, trusting in them, cares little about being hated by the people."

Also, he's explicitly talking about 16th century northern Italy here, even more than in other chapters, drawing contrasts to other times (and assuming others that he doesn't mention), and explaining why the practices of those times no longer work. But Westeros isn't even at the level of social or military development of those past times.

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Rubicante said:

What else am I missing?

Euron defeating Yara's fleet, once he found them. He appeared to destroy most of her fleet of 500 ships in about a minute.

Anyway, some of these things have decent in-story explanations, but yeah, when you pile on this many, it wouldn't matter even if every single one of them made sense, it would still mean that everything feels empty.

[Sir Dingleberry]

6 hours ago, Rubicante said:

What else am I missing?

 

Along those lines, will we ever get any type of explanation on how Euron built his fleet and where he got enough men to man those ships? Especially after the Iron Islands have been routinely described as nothing but a pile of rocks. 

[falcotron]

9 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Along those lines, will we ever get any type of explanation on how Euron built his fleet and where he got enough men to man those ships? Especially after the Iron Islands have been routinely described as nothing but a pile of rocks. 

The Ironborn don't get their wood from the Iron Islands, they pay the iron price by stealing it from the coasts of the mainland. There's probably lots of unguarded Riverlands and North territory at this point, so Euron could have snuck his lumberjack thralls ashore there. But, more likely, he teleported to the other side of Westeros, rolled up on the Haunted Forest, and called out, "Yo, Night King, it's me, Euron, mind if I take some wood?" and he's such a charming guy that the wights cheered him as wildly as the crowds of KL, calling out "Whore trees!" as he cut them down.

[Sir Dingleberry]

2 hours ago, falcotron said:

The Ironborn don't get their wood from the Iron Islands, they pay the iron price by stealing it from the coasts of the mainland. There's probably lots of unguarded Riverlands and North territory at this point, so Euron could have snuck his lumberjack thralls ashore there. But, more likely, he teleported to the other side of Westeros, rolled up on the Haunted Forest, and called out, "Yo, Night King, it's me, Euron, mind if I take some wood?" and he's such a charming guy that the wights cheered him as wildly as the crowds of KL, calling out "Whore trees!" as he cut them down.

Lol sounds about right. 

[King Louis II (KLII)]

On 8/2/2017 at 3:52 AM, Denam_Pavel said:

Emptying out casterly rock goldwise is one thing, emptying Lannisport foodwise quite another.

Exactly, in real life you couldn't just leave CR to the unsullied because of Lannisport and surroundings. Your foot soldiers would not be pleased knowing that their families are being sacked and killed.

[The Golden Wolf]

49 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Exactly, in real life you couldn't just leave CR to the unsullied because of Lannisport and surroundings. Your foot soldiers would not be pleased knowing that their families are being sacked and killed.

Of course what Cersie will say is that Dany is trying to win the hearts and minds of the people so she would never attack allow here soldiers attack the defenseless because Dany only came to conquer Westeros with Love and Sunshine not Fire and Blood.

of course the real question is why only use the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock? Tyrion sent a unit that is just infantry to take a castle. they had no siege engines, no cavalry, and just a fleet at their back. The Unsullied are being wasted.

This is why I miss Ser Barristan "The Bold" Selmy so much because now Dany only has Saint Tyrion to listen to for advice on warfare and he has only fought on the Greenfork and the Blackwater. the Former was only meant as a feint by the Northerners and the Latter would have been a loss if not for the Tyrell and Lannister forces surprising Stannis. Ser Barristan had many years of martial experience and even more importantly would have been someone whose reputation made people talk. think about the boost Ser Barristan would have given to Dany's reputation just by being her Hand and/or Commander of her Queensguard. Hell just imagine the impact of people knowing she has a QueensGuard handpicked and trained by Ser Barristan Selmy.   

[falcotron]

15 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Of course what Cersie will say is that Dany is trying to win the hearts and minds of the people so she would never attack allow here soldiers attack the defenseless because Dany only came to conquer Westeros with Love and Sunshine not Fire and Blood.

Cersei just spent the last two weeks telling everyone that the Unsullied are a band of fanatical slave soldiers who kill without remorse in service of a fire-and-blood Targaryen Mad Queen. For her to then say, "Don't worry, it's the Unsullied, they won't kill civilians because Dany is too nice" would be ridiculous. (Which doesn't mean it won't happen.)

15 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

of course the real question is why only use the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock? Tyrion sent a unit that is just infantry to take a castle. they had no siege engines, no cavalry, and just a fleet at their back. The Unsullied are being wasted.

Well, they weren't actually laying siege, they were sneaking in through the sewers. Cavalry and siege engines aren't very useful for that.

Of course in real life, you'd want to lay siege as well as sneaking in through the sewers. It keeps some of the enemy soldiers occupied, and denies safe access through parts of the castle where they could otherwise hole up and get a local advantage over you, and is bad for enemy morale, and with most of their soldiers busy fighting your sneak attack force it'll be a lot easier to get a breach or get sappers under the walls meaning you can get even more people inside and attack them from multiple sides, and so on.

But in Westeros, nobody ever lays siege. When they say "siege" they mean "immediately assault the walls without even setting up camp first".

That still doesn't completely answer the question of why only Unsullied. I know, she wanted to save the bulk of the non-scary white people for her assault on KL so nobody got scared of her army, but you'd think at least a small number of Reach troops or mercenaries who'd fought in Westeros or something might have some useful experience in the many ways that Westerosi castles, tactics, geography, etc. are different than their Ghiscari equivalents.

[Sir Dingleberry]

9 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

This is why I miss Ser Barristan "The Bold" Selmy so much because now Dany only has Saint Tyrion to listen to for advice on warfare and he has only fought on the Greenfork and the Blackwater. the Former was only meant as a feint by the Northerners and the Latter would have been a loss if not for the Tyrell and Lannister forces surprising Stannis. Ser Barristan had many years of martial experience and even more importantly would have been someone whose reputation made people talk. think about the boost Ser Barristan would have given to Dany's reputation just by being her Hand and/or Commander of her Queensguard. Hell just imagine the impact of people knowing she has a QueensGuard handpicked and trained by Ser Barristan Selmy.   

This is my small hope for in the books.  Since he is training former slaves before the battle at Mereen and in the leaked chapter we see some of them fighting and it sounds awesome.  I'm hoping GRRM goes a little more in depth with some of those characters or we at least see them fighting in the wars to come.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

On 02/08/2017 at 8:52 AM, Denam_Pavel said:

Emptying out casterly rock goldwise is one thing, emptying Lannisport foodwise quite another.

I don't see the point of that either unless there is a blockade. It seems like the major thing is making the Unsullied footsoldiers walk across Westeros. Like Harold in 1066 had to walk one length of England to the other and ended up losing the second battle

[ERRI8013]

There is something I don’t understand.

Just a mile from Casterly Rock there is Lannisport… did they evacuate the city and burn all the food?

[Sir Dingleberry]

40 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

There is something I don’t understand.

Just a mile from Casterly Rock there is Lannisport… did they evacuate the city and burn all the food?

Lannisport doesn't exist unless D&D want it to lol but in reality Jamie/Cersei's plan doesn't make sense at all because of that.

[Greywater-Watch]

On Invalid Date at 6:44 PM, Cas Stark said:

It somewhat stretches credulity that the Lannister bannermen remain loyal to Cersei, even though she is a kinslayer

Cersei is a lot, but neither in the Show nor in the book has Cersei slewn a kin of hers. The closest she ever came to it was accusing Tyrion of having murdered Joffrey.

[Sir Dingleberry]

9 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Cersei is a lot, but neither in the Show nor in the book has Cersei slewn a kin of hers. The closest she ever came to it was accusing Tyrion of having murdered Joffrey.

I mean it has to count for something that she murdered her daughter in law Margery and then brother in law and then father in law and later poisoned her mother in law 

[Greywater-Watch]

I feel the title of this OP is absolutely justified. I do not think of viewers with a background of the books or paying attention to details. I assume that D&D say, let us ignore the books, let us ignore logic, people watching the Show are 99% people who do not care about details or logic.

Now, if I would be someone for example watching the show for the first time, with no background at all, I could swallow the time warps, could swallow that battle between Euron's fleet and Yara's fleet and fireballs flying around.

But I would definetly shake my had on the scene of Highgarden being taken effortless. Because one thing everyone knows from medieval age is: Castles are strong and not easily taken. Honestly, those scenes in Episode 3 pissed me off more than any other nonsense in the show.