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Stormking902

Castles are basically useless apparently

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2 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, they could employ more writers/proof readers etc - but then there are more chance of leaks. Look at the problems they have had with leaks already with season 5 and this season. Not saying you are wrong, from a better writing perspective, just pointing out the more people you involve in the writing the greater the chance of losing control of any secrets or surprises you plan.

Besides, have you been to the cinema lately? Seen how bad the writing is in the new Star Wars films, or those Transformers films? Did you see that recent Alien film? Did you see HBOs last big effort Westworld? There is this kind of indirectly proportional relationship between budget and writing - if you want to see something well written, find an indi flick or a new series, because as soon as they start throwing money at it the writing turns to crap :D

I actually really liked Westworld and thought it was well done.

But, yes, overall it's true the quality of films has been on a steady decline over the last decade or two, but that's not an excuse.  Breaking Bad was a beautifully written show from start to finish.

It's just a shame that the showrunners have their priorities so skewed, and for that matter, much easier to delegate everything else but the writing, no?  Or, they could hire a couple of first tier writers who no one would have to worry about leaking anything.  There is really no excuse for how poor most of the writing is, especially when they show they CAN make it work when they try, like Diana Riggs last scene.  Not spectacular but good.

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3 hours ago, falcotron said:

Also:

Sure, losing the seat of her strongest ally does make Dany look weak.

And losing the seat of her own self makes Cersei look even weaker. Remember when Robb lost Winterfell, and some of his allies started looking for an exit strategy?

And again, they could have taken out Olenna without sacrificing their home.

I'm glad you said that.  Holding Dragonstone was key to Stannis, holding Storms end was key in the books, holding Riverrun was key to the Riverlands, and losing Winterfell was a huge deal. I don't see how D&D can have Jamie say "oh well no big deal," since everyone still believes the Lannisters are rich per their mines and their mines are literally right there for Danny to take lol. (I know that viewers know the mines are empty but the general public does not).

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the only thing I would like to comment about the castles is that the wall of Casterly Rock are a bit too low imo.

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22 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I'm glad you said that.  Holding Dragonstone was key to Stannis, holding Storms end was key in the books, holding Riverrun was key to the Riverlands, and losing Winterfell was a huge deal. I don't see how D&D can have Jamie say "oh well no big deal," since everyone still believes the Lannisters are rich per their mines and their mines are literally right there for Danny to take lol. (I know that viewers know the mines are empty but the general public does not).

I always say this on here, but bringing book knowledge to the show can be counterproductive.  I think the show explains everything fine- Cersei knows Casterly Rock is empty, the real gold lies in Highgarden, Cersei needs gold to pay off the debts to the Iron bank,  Highgarden and the Tyrells are not strong fighters, especially after losing their key bannerman Randyll Tarly, and Cersei gets the added benefit of trapping the Unsullied in Casterly Rock.

That's all we really need to know and the show gets that all across.  

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29 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I'm glad you said that.  Holding Dragonstone was key to Stannis, holding Storms end was key in the books, holding Riverrun was key to the Riverlands, and losing Winterfell was a huge deal. I don't see how D&D can have Jamie say "oh well no big deal," since everyone still believes the Lannisters are rich per their mines and their mines are literally right there for Danny to take lol. (I know that viewers know the mines are empty but the general public does not).

Not to mention Tywin risking the capital to ride west just because Robb was plundering the areas around Casterly Rock not even at the Rock itself.

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2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I always say this on here, but bringing book knowledge to the show can be counterproductive.  I think the show explains everything fine- Cersei knows Casterly Rock is empty, the real gold lies in Highgarden, Cersei needs gold to pay off the debts to the Iron bank,  Highgarden and the Tyrells are not strong fighters, especially after losing their key bannerman Randyll Tarly, and Cersei gets the added benefit of trapping the Unsullied in Casterly Rock.

That's all we really need to know and the show gets that all across.  

It somewhat stretches credulity that the Lannister bannermen remain loyal to Cersei, even though she is a kinslayer, killed the queen, caused the suicide of the king, killed the previous king and put incest bastards on the throne who started a war........yet Tarly turns his cloak against House Tyrell and goes to fight for Cersei at the drop of a hat.  He could have simply done what Lysa did, take his army South back to Highgarden and Reach and sit things out......until such time as he could side with the obvious winner.  It also stretches credulity that the Tyrell bannermen would also abandon the House and not go home to their own keeps, but fight for Cersei.

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10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I always say this on here, but bringing book knowledge to the show can be counterproductive.  I think the show explains everything fine- Cersei knows Casterly Rock is empty, the real gold lies in Highgarden, Cersei needs gold to pay off the debts to the Iron bank,  Highgarden and the Tyrells are not strong fighters, especially after losing their key bannerman Randyll Tarly, and Cersei gets the added benefit of trapping the Unsullied in Casterly Rock.

That's all we really need to know and the show gets that all across.  

I mean that's fair and I take what happens in the show with a grain of salt at this point but you can't base a key decision previously in the series on a certain idea and then completely ignore that idea that you've established later on.  Seats of the Wardens in each territory are important and key to an image (power, wealth, etc.).  So, I get we are in a different world than season 1 (war, dragons, death, less players, etc.) but the fact that this idea was just discarded by Jamie without a second thought just doesn't make sense. 

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53 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I mean that's fair and I take what happens in the show with a grain of salt at this point but you can't base a key decision previously in the series on a certain idea and then completely ignore that idea that you've established later on.  Seats of the Wardens in each territory are important and key to an image (power, wealth, etc.).  So, I get we are in a different world than season 1 (war, dragons, death, less players, etc.) but the fact that this idea was just discarded by Jamie without a second thought just doesn't make sense. 

I think the bolded is key, and I agree.  Casterly Rock at this point is just an image- it's been hammered home for seasons now that the Lannisters don't have gold anymore coming from there and have been relying on Highgarden and the Tyrells.  What's more important to the Lannisters/Cersei is King's Landing (the "real" seat of power) and having the Iron Bank behind them to beat Dany.  Plus, again they get the added benefit of trapping the Unsullied in Casterly Rock eliminating a key aspect of Dany's army.

This idea of image and the world changing has been a key component of all the Lannister scenes I'd argue- beginning with Cersei and Jaime now openly sleeping together.  Does it make perfect sense?  Maybe not but as far as the broadstrokes the TV series has had to paint to finish this show and get to the endgame, I think it makes more than enough sense.

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I think the bolded is key, and I agree.  Casterly Rock at this point is just an image- it's been hammered home for seasons now that the Lannisters don't have gold anymore coming from there and have been relying on Highgarden and the Tyrells.  What's more important to the Lannisters/Cersei is King's Landing (the "real" seat of power) and having the Iron Bank behind them to beat Dany.  Plus, again they get the added benefit of trapping the Unsullied in Casterly Rock eliminating a key aspect of Dany's army.

This idea of image and the world changing has been a key component of all the Lannister scenes I'd argue- beginning with Cersei and Jaime now openly sleeping together.  Does it make perfect sense?  Maybe not but as far as the broadstrokes the TV series has had to paint to finish this show and get to the endgame, I think it makes more than enough sense.

I agree. Its that question though that bothers me just because of the way certain story lines have gone. Like Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion, and Olenna are aware that Casterly Rock is dry and that tyrells have been covering their ass for the past couple seasons. Then all of a sudden this point isn't stressed to Dany and certain precautions made in that regard, ie securing Tarly before Cersei at the bare minimum. (I get that the shows time warp and lack of explanations on certain time constraints are really what lead to this confusion but still).

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30 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

I agree. Its that question though that bothers me just because of the way certain story lines have gone. Like Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion, and Olenna are aware that Casterly Rock is dry and that tyrells have been covering their ass for the past couple seasons. Then all of a sudden this point isn't stressed to Dany and certain precautions made in that regard, ie securing Tarly before Cersei at the bare minimum. (I get that the shows time warp and lack of explanations on certain time constraints are really what lead to this confusion but still).

I agree.  I'm just at the point with the show where I'm more understanding of its lack of explanations and can enjoy it for what it is.  At least with the show we are getting an end game- something I'm not sure we will ever see in the books at this rate.

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35 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I agree.  I'm just at the point with the show where I'm more understanding of its lack of explanations and can enjoy it for what it is.  At least with the show we are getting an end game- something I'm not sure we will ever see in the books at this rate.

I think the show has always went without explaining many things, but because the books existed, you could fill in the blanks and knew what was being alluded to.  My wife (never read the books) and I (read them all) have watched all the seasons, and even from season 1, she would be asking me questions about things that didn't seem clear.  Now that no one has the books, the holes (that were always there) are more noticeable.

Plus, I do think they are rushing a little.  HBO seems determined to stick to their 8 season plan while George may or may not be able to wrap up his story in just two more books based on the level of detail and back-story he always seems to give.

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5 hours ago, ummester said:

I don't disagree with anything you have written - focusing on the politics probably would make the show more engaging. And yes, you are right, Yara was on her way to Dorne (there is dialogue to support that) even though it would make more sense for Euron to sink her fleet on the way to KL, fully laden with Dornish troops.

I don't think D&D (or the writers working for them) can write character, dialogue and political intrigue as good as GRRM. Not that I am absolving GRRM, as I'm not sure he knows how to resolve the story he started telling.

There were 3 books and 4 seasons of intricately plotted drama, framed (and spiced up by) by these growing fantasy elements. All of these pieces were brilliantly moved into place, all of these intriguing seeds planted - and then it started to come apart. The goalposts feel like they were moved in the middle of the game.

It was designed as a saga, not a series and saga's have to end. Yet what kind of ending should that be? If it is in line with the way the first 3 books were written, that ending should be low key and mostly conveyed with dialogue. But it all got bigger than that, due to becoming more popular than I think anyone counted for (Kind of like Star Wars in the 70s).

GRRM himself went from the idea of writing for lower cinematic budgets to the idea of finishing it as a 200 million cinematic epic. Now there are multiple spinoffs planned and the original saga hasn't even finished.

D&D know the end game and some major plot elements along the way, which they are fumbling towards in sometimes spectacular but often stupid style. And after seasons 5 & 6, which lacked plotting intricacy, they know that the spectacle sells GoTs just as well as the plotting used to and, even if they wanted to, there probably isn't time to craft an intricately plotted season and film it each year.

So, though your criticism is entirely valid and more intricate political plotting would elevate the last act of this saga, it's kind of impossible to do when they're making it up as they go along, trying to keep up with a schedule. The big issue with GoTs/ASoIaF is that the story was sold for adaptation before it was finished - which is ultimately the combined fault of GRRM, D&D and HBO.

I agree with all of that. And another issue is that the style, pace, and themes of the story have actually changed tremendously from book 1 of a traditional trilogy to book 5 of a monster heptalogy, and it's obviously easier for GRRM to adjust to those changes than for D&D, and even he's had problems.

But, that being said, I think "making it up as they go along" is largely their fault. It's not like it's impossible to plan things out more, to have a rough sketch of what they're going to do in S7 and what pieces need to be in play while writing S6. And there's definitely enough time to do it. And they must realize they're in this situation—all they're getting from GRRM is the thin skeleton he gave them three years ago, so it's up to them to flesh it out. They're just not doing it because the conventional TV wisdom is that season by season works. The problem is that, while it works for most shows, it doesn't work for the way they've built this one.

Also, I don't even think they need super-intricate political plotting, just a bit more focus on what's there—just enough planning and focus to notice that they forgot to tell us how Dorne got taken out of the war, maybe. That would be so trivial to fix. One conversation, where the Sand Snakes sit around jokingly competing to see who can come up with the most outlandishly foolhardy plan (to make HBO happy, maybe Tyene gets bored and flashes her tits at two burly Ironmen and drags them off to a bed in the background), and Ellaria reminds them, "It's not that funny. If we all die, little Sarella takes over with cousin Allian as regent, and he thought even Doran wasn't isolationist enough. That would be that for our Queen's war—and, more importantly, for our family's last chance at justice." Then, when they later get captured, we know what it means and why, and it's all completely believable.

 

 

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One thing to keep in mind on the quality of the show versus the quality of the books is that the show is making it's deadlines and it has too, because if they took time off they may never get the cast back again.  They also don't have the luxury of shooting all season and then deciding, nope, that doesn't work like we thought, let's shoot it over again.  A film or tv production has 1 shot at getting it right and for the most part, I'd prefer a flawed and completed TV series than an unfinished one.

As for indies vs blockbuster.  There are hundreds and hundreds of independent films made every year that don't get seen by anyone.  The cream that rises to the top is what most people see, and by nature that is the best work.  Major studio productions can't hide their failures as easily.

As for the castles, I'm sure Olenana recognized that a protracted siege would only lead to the death of her small folk, as she knows how ruthless Cersei is, and once she saw the army approaching, decided to give Cersei this win with the hope that Danny would be able to defeat her eventually.

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6 minutes ago, olibar said:

One thing to keep in mind on the quality of the show versus the quality of the books is that the show is making it's deadlines and it has too, because if they took time off they may never get the cast back again.  They also don't have the luxury of shooting all season and then deciding, nope, that doesn't work like we thought, let's shoot it over again.  A film or tv production has 1 shot at getting it right and for the most part, I'd prefer a flawed and completed TV series than an unfinished one.

As for indies vs blockbuster.  There are hundreds and hundreds of independent films made every year that don't get seen by anyone.  The cream that rises to the top is what most people see, and by nature that is the best work.  Major studio productions can't hide their failures as easily.

As for the castles, I'm sure Olenana recognized that a protracted siege would only lead to the death of her small folk, as she knows how ruthless Cersei is, and once she saw the army approaching, decided to give Cersei this win with the hope that Danny would be able to defeat her eventually.

Or, she could have just sent a raven to Dragonstone that said "Need help, under siege, bring your dragons".  And voila, Dany and dragons would have arrived and dracarys the Lannisters.

 

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Also, I don't even think they need super-intricate political plotting, just a bit more focus on what's there—just enough planning and focus to notice that they forgot to tell us how Dorne got taken out of the war, maybe. That would be so trivial to fix. One conversation, where the Sand Snakes sit around jokingly competing to see who can come up with the most outlandishly foolhardy plan (to make HBO happy, maybe Tyene gets bored and flashes her tits at two burly Ironmen and drags them off to a bed in the background), and Ellaria reminds them, "It's not that funny. If we all die, little Sarella takes over with cousin Allian as regent, and he thought even Doran wasn't isolationist enough. That would be that for our Queen's war—and, more importantly, for our family's last chance at justice." Then, when they later get captured, we know what it means and why, and it's all completely believable.

Agreed. That small convo carries more weight than them discussing randomly killing people in the ship hold before being killed. and that's a common theme that is just frustrating with the show.  

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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this so far, but how did Olenna Tyrell get to Highgarden so quickly?  Wasn't it last episode that she was at Dragonstone telling Dany to "Be a Dragon"?

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It's in the books that Casterly Rock is the strongest castle in Westeros that you can't take even with dragons. In the show it's a regular castle, so Jaime could have expected that with enough force and with not enough people defending it the castle would fall. And yes, Tyrion did hype the castle as one that has never fallen but considering that it was his father that built it, I am not sure if anyone even tried.

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1 hour ago, olibar said:

One thing to keep in mind on the quality of the show versus the quality of the books is that the show is making it's deadlines and it has too, because if they took time off they may never get the cast back again.

Also, even if they can get the cast back, all the child and teen actors get a year older every year, and they're already stretching the stories about as far as they can go.

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As for the castles, I'm sure Olenana recognized that a protracted siege would only lead to the death of her small folk, as she knows how ruthless Cersei is, and once she saw the army approaching, decided to give Cersei this win with the hope that Danny would be able to defeat her eventually.

But then why not surrender instead of fighting at all? That saves the lives of thousands of her soldiers, and gives Cersei even more reason to go easy on her smallfolk.

 

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50 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this so far, but how did Olenna Tyrell get to Highgarden so quickly?  Wasn't it last episode that she was at Dragonstone telling Dany to "Be a Dragon"?

That one doesn't really bother me. She went from DS to HG in less time than it took for Jaime to go from KL to CR, gather his army, and march them from CR to HG. That seems pretty reasonable.

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2 hours ago, olibar said:

One thing to keep in mind on the quality of the show versus the quality of the books is that the show is making it's deadlines and it has too, because if they took time off they may never get the cast back again.

Yes, this is very true and it's probably one of the main reasons why the quality of the writing dropped so dramatically once they ran out of written material. It's a good explanation, but it doesn't change the facts.

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