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Damon_Tor

Petyr Baelish and his Whore-net

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This post generally assumes you've watched these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXZ45v4NzM&list=PLQrZpjVj947iCkqhsEXzRX-3PM-g5akRJ

So ever since I watched the Order of the Greenhand's video series on Petyr Baelish, I've been wrestling with the idea that Petyr could have access to magic of some form or another. Now, I've believed for a while that Petyr knows about magic and carefully takes magic into account in his schemes but the idea that Petyr has, himself, some kind of magic at his disposal didn't sit well with me, and at first I dismissed it.

One of the points the OotGH made that I took issue with: they claim that Bran's infiltration of Jon's wolfdream is evidence that psychic contact doesn't need a "net" because Bran did this while neither he and Jon were in proximity to a weirwood. The problem here is that Bran explicitly uses the native psychic connection between Ghost and Summer to enter Jon's dream. And because Petyr has no psychic network, he can't make telepathic contact, making it hard to swallow that he orchestrated the attempt on Bran's life and debunking the core of the magic Baelish hypothesis. Right?

The whores.

I reminded myself that GRRM has already written a novel in which sex is explicitly a means of forming a psychic connection, and it appears to have transitioned into ASoIaF as well at least partially via Melisandre's sex magic and the concept of "temple prostitutes" in both the Red Temple and the Temple of the Graces. So if person A has sex with person B and forms a psychic connection, and person B has sex with person C and forms another psychic connection, is it possible that a means of psychic contact also exists between person A and person C?

In other words, could Baelish be using his whores to create a psychic network, spreading his influence to patrons of his whorehouses?

As noted by the OotGH, Baelish did have a near-death experience when he was young... but unlike the NDE of Bran or Jojen, Baelish had sex during his. How does one's experiences during a NDE effect the nature of the psychic awakening?

Another objection I had with the OotGH's hypothesis: we are led to believe that bloodlines are important in the development of magical abilities, but Baelish doesn't hail from a psychic bloodline, he's the grandson of a Braavosi sellsword. But why did GRRM make his grandfather Braavosi anyway? It's an odd feature of his house, and the author could have just as easily made him a Westerosi sellsword for a less unique origin, why Braavos? And then I remembered the Moonsingers: Braavos was founded by psychic priestesses, a plausible origin for Balish's psychic genes.

And finally, Petyr's personal sigil, the mockingbird. "Songs" are explicitly synonymous with telepathy in other GRRM novels, and there's reason to believe the same is true in ASoIaF... Mockingbirds steal songs.

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On 1.8.2017 at 6:23 PM, Damon_Tor said:

This post generally assumes you've watched these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXZ45v4NzM&list=PLQrZpjVj947iCkqhsEXzRX-3PM-g5akRJ

So ever since I watched the Order of the Greenhand's video series on Petyr Baelish, I've been wrestling with the idea that Petyr could have access to magic of some form or another. Now, I've believed for a while that Petyr knows about magic and carefully takes magic into account in his schemes but the idea that Petyr has, himself, some kind of magic at his disposal didn't sit well with me, and at first I dismissed it.

One of the points the OotGH made that I took issue with: they claim that Bran's infiltration of Jon's wolfdream is evidence that psychic contact doesn't need a "net" because Bran did this while neither he and Jon were in proximity to a weirwood. The problem here is that Bran explicitly uses the native psychic connection between Ghost and Summer to enter Jon's dream. And because Petyr has no psychic network, he can't make telepathic contact, making it hard to swallow that he orchestrated the attempt on Bran's life and debunking the core of the magic Baelish hypothesis. Right?

The whores.

I reminded myself that GRRM has already written a novel in which sex is explicitly a means of forming a psychic connection, and it appears to have transitioned into ASoIaF as well at least partially via Melisandre's sex magic and the concept of "temple prostitutes" in both the Red Temple and the Temple of the Graces. So if person A has sex with person B and forms a psychic connection, and person B has sex with person C and forms another psychic connection, is it possible that a means of psychic contact also exists between person A and person C?

In other words, could Baelish be using his whores to create a psychic network, spreading his influence to patrons of his whorehouses?

As noted by the OotGH, Baelish did have a near-death experience when he was young... but unlike the NDE of Bran or Jojen, Baelish had sex during his. How does one's experiences during a NDE effect the nature of the psychic awakening?

Another objection I had with the OotGH's hypothesis: we are led to believe that bloodlines are important in the development of magical abilities, but Baelish doesn't hail from a psychic bloodline, he's the grandson of a Braavosi sellsword. But why did GRRM make his grandfather Braavosi anyway? It's an odd feature of his house, and the author could have just as easily made him a Westerosi sellsword for a less unique origin, why Braavos? And then I remembered the Moonsingers: Braavos was founded by psychic priestesses, a plausible origin for Balish's psychic genes.

And finally, Petyr's personal sigil, the mockingbird. "Songs" are explicitly synonymous with telepathy in other GRRM novels, and there's reason to believe the same is true in ASoIaF... Mockingbirds steal songs.

Intresting

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On 8/1/2017 at 0:23 PM, Damon_Tor said:

This post generally assumes you've watched these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXZ45v4NzM&list=PLQrZpjVj947iCkqhsEXzRX-3PM-g5akRJ

So ever since I watched the Order of the Greenhand's video series on Petyr Baelish, I've been wrestling with the idea that Petyr could have access to magic of some form or another. Now, I've believed for a while that Petyr knows about magic and carefully takes magic into account in his schemes but the idea that Petyr has, himself, some kind of magic at his disposal didn't sit well with me, and at first I dismissed it.

He disposes over another form of magic, namely the magic of words!  Verbal manipulation is how he achieves his sleight of hand.

While Baelish is a greenseer archetype at a symbolic level, that doesn't necessarily make him a greenseer literally; just as many characters fulfill the criteria for the Azor Ahai archetype without all being Azor Ahai!

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One of the points the OotGH made that I took issue with: they claim that Bran's infiltration of Jon's wolfdream is evidence that psychic contact doesn't need a "net" because Bran did this while neither he and Jon were in proximity to a weirwood.

Two things:

1.  Psychic contact doesn't need a weirnet -- as you've pointed out, any animal or tree can be be a host intermediary; and assuming Bloodraven was telling the truth, it's possible to go 'beyond the trees'

2.  I agree with Voice that the Wall serves a warg-blocking function.  So, I've come to believe that Bran/Summer could not have contacted Jon in 'real time' from the crypt in ACOK, when Jon and Ghost were on the opposite side of the Wall in the Skirling Pass and therefore unable to sense him.  Therefore, Bran was already in Bloodraven's cave, situating the two wargs and their corresponding wolves on the same side of the Wall as each other (although in two time dimensions)!  The clue that this is the case is given by Bran's appearance to Jon as a 'weirwood sapling' growing in fast-forward, signifying two things: firstly, Bran's wedding to the trees in ADWD, and secondly, the intersection of present and future.

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The problem here is that Bran explicitly uses the native psychic connection between Ghost and Summer to enter Jon's dream. And because Petyr has no psychic network, he can't make telepathic contact, making it hard to swallow that he orchestrated the attempt on Bran's life and debunking the core of the magic Baelish hypothesis. Right?

I don't think he orchestrated the attempt on Bran's life (unless he had previously suggested something to Joffrey -- just plain old simple instigation by vicious rumor, no magic needed).  Joffrey did it -- GRRM's ellipses proves it (Joffrey guiltily stumbling over his words upon verbal confrontation about the dagger by Tyrion ...DOT DOT DOT...pregnant with meaning!)

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The whores.

I reminded myself that GRRM has already written a novel in which sex is explicitly a means of forming a psychic connection,

Which novel is that?  Nightflyers?

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and it appears to have transitioned into ASoIaF as well at least partially via Melisandre's sex magic and the concept of "temple prostitutes" in both the Red Temple and the Temple of the Graces. So if person A has sex with person B and forms a psychic connection, and person B has sex with person C and forms another psychic connection, is it possible that a means of psychic contact also exists between person A and person C?

Sure.

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In other words, could Baelish be using his whores to create a psychic network, spreading his influence to patrons of his whorehouses?

I doubt it.  Baelish doesn't like sticky fingers.  Although he likes trading in sex, it seems he doesn't get a lot of it himself, nor is particularly interested in the final product (even with Sansa, it's the chase that turns him on, the defilement of innocence, the satisfaction of finally possessing Cat 2.0, not the carnality for its own sake necessarily).  He's more interested in f***ing people over cerebrally!

Again, he uses the whores to disseminate his 'magic weapon' of choice -- the one I've termed 'the killing word' in honor of Dune.  He even admits to strategically spreading his lies and innuendo this way:

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"Your Grace, your brother has the right of this." Petyr Baelish steepled his fingers. "If we attempt to silence this talk, we only lend it credence. Better to treat it with contempt, like the pathetic lie it is. And meantime, fight fire with fire."

Cersei gave him a measuring look. "What sort of fire?"

Wildfire..?  ;)

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"A tale of somewhat the same nature, perhaps. But more easily believed. Lord Stannis has spent most of his marriage apart from his wife. Not that I fault him, I'd do the same were I married to Lady Selyse. Nonetheless, if we put it about that her daughter is baseborn and Stannis a cuckold, well . . . the smallfolk are always eager to believe the worst of their lords, particularly those as stern, sour, and prickly proud as Stannis Baratheon."

"He has never been much loved, that's true." Cersei considered a moment. "So we pay him back in his own coin. Yes, I like this. Who can we name as Lady Selyse's lover? She has two brothers, I believe. And one of her uncles has been with her on Dragonstone all this time . . . "

"Ser Axell Florent is her castellan." Loath as Tyrion was to admit it, Littlefinger's scheme had promise. Stannis had never been enamored of his wife, but he was bristly as a hedgehog where his honor was concerned and mistrustful by nature. If they could sow discord between him and his followers, it could only help their cause. "The child has the Florent ears, I'm told."

Littlefinger gestured languidly. "A trade envoy from Lys once observed to me that Lord Stannis must love his daughter very well, since he'd erected hundreds of statues of her all along the walls of Dragonstone. 'My lord' I had to tell him, 'those are gargoyles.' " He chuckled. "Ser Axell might serve for Shireen's father, but in my experience, the more bizarre and shocking a tale the more apt it is to be repeated. Stannis keeps an especially grotesque fool, a lackwit with a tattooed face."

Grand Maester Pycelle gaped at him, aghast. "Surely you do not mean to suggest that Lady Selyse would bring a fool into her bed?"

"You'd have to be a fool to want to bed Selyse Florent," said Littlefinger. "Doubtless Patchface reminded her of Stannis. And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause. As it happens, this fool is utterly devoted to the girl and follows her everywhere. They even look somewhat alike. Shireen has a mottled, half-frozen face as well."

Pycelle was lost. "But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing."

"I like my tale better," said Littlefinger, "and so will the smallfolk. Most of them believe that if a woman eats rabbit while pregnant, her child will be born with long floppy ears."

Cersei smiled the sort of smile she customarily reserved for Jaime. "Lord Petyr, you are a wicked creature."

"Thank you,Your Grace."

"And a most accomplished liar," Tyrion added, less warmly. This one is more dangerous than I knew, he reflected.

Littlefinger's grey-green eyes met the dwarf's mismatched stare with no hint of unease. "We all have our gifts, my lord."

The queen was too caught up in her revenge to take note of the exchange. "Cuckolded by a halfwit fool! Stannis will be laughed at in every winesink this side of the narrow sea."

"The story should not come from us," Tyrion said, "or it will be seen for a self-serving lie." Which it is, to be sure.

Once more Littlefinger supplied the answer. "Whores love to gossip, and as it happens I own a brothel or three. And no doubt Varys can plant seeds in the alehouses and pot-shops."  

(ACOK - Tyrion III)

 

 

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As noted by the OotGH, Baelish did have a near-death experience when he was young... but unlike the NDE of Bran or Jojen, Baelish had sex during his. How does one's experiences during a NDE effect the nature of the psychic awakening?

 

Great question.  @Unchained and @40 Thousand Skeletons can probably answer better than I can in this regard.

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Another objection I had with the OotGH's hypothesis: we are led to believe that bloodlines are important in the development of magical abilities, but Baelish doesn't hail from a psychic bloodline, he's the grandson of a Braavosi sellsword. But why did GRRM make his grandfather Braavosi anyway? It's an odd feature of his house, and the author could have just as easily made him a Westerosi sellsword for a less unique origin, why Braavos? And then I remembered the Moonsingers: Braavos was founded by psychic priestesses, a plausible origin for Balish's psychic genes.

Yes, the bravos are also known as waterdancers -- this is GRRM symbolic code for greenseer/skinchanger!

Also -- the 'grey-green' eyes and other crannog features are suggestive of latent magical abilities.

Allow me to quote something I wrote previously, briefly summarizing some thoughts on the significance of 'grey-green':

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 Interestingly, grey-green in ASOIAF seems to be present at transitions / in liminal states, especially dawn and dusk, which dovetails nicely with Crowfood Daughter's idea of one archetype transforming into another.  

The hyphenation of grey and green itself hints at a patchwork of identity, with the Grey King and the Green King representing two phases of the same cycle:  Old Age and Youth, Winter and Summer , Death and Life, Night and Day, Salt and Rock, Grim grey Reaper and bountiful green Fertility god, Cain and Abel, respectively.  The grey seems to be the 'corrupted' -- fire-transformed / ashen-- form of the green; except it's important to acknowledge that each contains within itself the future potential or lingering ghost of the other (yin-yang concept).

Besides the sea/see --  which is the main gist of it -- 'grey-green' is also more explicitly associated with greenseeing, skinchanging, the godswood and personified trees (e.g. the grey-green sentinels), the old gods and the underworld,  the drowned god and/or the storm god; the direwolves (e.g. Summer a grey wolf is 'Prince of the Green', Grey Wind rumbles as one with the Green Fork of the Trident, gray shadows emerge from a green wood); corpses (described as both rotting and blooming as they decay!) and 'undead' (e.g.the Others, Lady Stoneheart), characters like Bronn, Davos, Sandor Clegane, and the Manderlys (the 'leviathan' vs. 'kraken' locked in unending battle might be a grey-green echo...are krakens green/red sea dragons? vs. leviathans usually grey); the eyes of Littlefinger (also from Braavos with Titan sigil!) and Aurane Waters; magic, temptation, treachery, executions and rebirths.  And so much more!

 

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And finally, Petyr's personal sigil, the mockingbird. "Songs" are explicitly synonymous with telepathy in other GRRM novels, and there's reason to believe the same is true in ASoIaF... Mockingbirds steal songs.

That's interesting.  I'm sure if Petyr could purloin the wolf blood, he would!  Right now, however, there's no evidence of him using magic, so I tend to view the patterns you're picking up as symbolic of some kind of historical drama, perhaps, in which a skinchanger's ability was somehow stolen by another using sex and death in the exchange (e.g. Petyr's challenging Brandon Stark to a duel, whereafter he had sex with a kissed-by-fire mermaid type following symbolic immersion at the 'water stair', might be interpreted as the avaricious trickster tricking the skinchanger into striking him with his magic, like the Grey King making Nagga's fire his thrall, or Lann stealing the gold from the sun).  The legend of Lann the Clever's infiltration of the Rock and insemination of the none-the-wiser ladies depicts such an allegory.

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13 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Which novel is that?  Nightflyers?

This concept is in that book, we don't see it happen but we hear about it past tense in that book. Also, this is not the only book it is mentioned in. The idea is that touch enhances a psi-link bond, and sex being deepest form of touching greatly enhances that psi-link bond. The other issue with this is that it does not leave a permanent bond. It happens in the moment. Sorta like when Bran tries to reach out and touch Meera mentally but he can't. Bran could probably make that psi-link connection if he was able to physically touch Meera to help enhance the connection. Someone on the forums here once made a thread about "low grade warging/skinchanging". This could possibly fall under those guidelines. Possibly. I don't remember the details of that theory.

 

To the OP.

You are right not to trust that YouTube channel Order of the Greenhand. I gave them a try, I did, but I found of the five-ish videos I watched, every one of them left out glaring chunks of info from the books that left their theories incomplete and not accurately portrayed. But hey, lots of online theorists do the same thing to make themselves look witty. I lost interest and even refuse to watch OotGH's take on Bloodraven. Actually, I take that back, I started to watch that one, but with the constant descriptions about how "gross" Bloodraven looks and why would any female ever want to be with him when he is a "gross albino with a gross birthmark", blah, blah, blah... I also lost respect for them and quickly turned that video off.

If Littlefinger has any psi-talent, then I doubt it would be through his whores because they are whores and they sleep with many men, and if that happens, things would get crowded up in the old cranium, which would require LF to have to have sex with all these women (and men?) to stay 'up to date'. This seems a little convoluted. He would be nearly unstoppable with the amount of knowledge he has. He appears that way now, although he is not. He craves chaos for selfish reasons and his Achilles heal is Sansa. He is just a clever human, which seems a better option than giving the majority of characters the plot gift of "magic".

Sansa and Arya both have Braavosi giants to take down. Arya in Braavos with either the Iron Bank, or the HoBW, or something along those monstrous lines. And Sansa has her own Braavosi giant in the form of Uncle Creepyfinger. George is not only reusing his own favorite themes from book to book, but also within the ASOIAF series itself. The original plot had Sansa betray her family (or whatever the word was). Well, that original plot both means nothing because it was changed so much, and also it shows that certain parts are not what they seemed. Sansa, when escaping KL in the written story, was supposed to go to her family. She keeps using that phrase, "to her family." But then she is trapped with the hairnet in the clutches of Petyr B, who makes her call him father as her playing the role of daughter. THIS is the "family" Sansa will now betray... and by betray, I mean be-head whether by her swinging the sword, or her using her words to pass the punishment. I think this is why George has both Sansa and Arya connected to Braavos in some way. The sisters are more alike than it seems in a first read.

Melisandre follows along, almost literally word for word, and action to action, with Morgan "full of magic" from Bitterblooms (mostly), where sex was used for manipulation and control, giving the illusion of magic, but it was really a (literal) mummer's farce.

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33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You are right not to trust that YouTube channel Order of the Greenhand. I gave them a try, I did, but I found of the five-ish videos I watched, every one of them left out glaring chunks of info from the books that left their theories incomplete and not accurately portrayed.

I have to second this. I checked their "clarification" video about Val being Jon Snow's twin with Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark being their parents. They left out that Val has dark honey blonde hair and would even flash images of women with white blonde Targayen/Dayne type hair when they talked about her. They added that Mance Rayder was Arthur Dayne and knew Val was his niece because if she wasn't he would have married her instead of Dalla because Val is described as more physically attractive. That's where I gave up on that "clarification" video.

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

This concept is in that book, we don't see it happen but we hear about it past tense in that book. Also, this is not the only book it is mentioned in. The idea is that touch enhances a psi-link bond, and sex being deepest form of touching greatly enhances that psi-link bond. The other issue with this is that it does not leave a permanent bond. It happens in the moment. Sorta like when Bran tries to reach out and touch Meera mentally but he can't. Bran could probably make that psi-link connection if he was able to physically touch Meera to help enhance the connection. Someone on the forums here once made a thread about "low grade warging/skinchanging". This could possibly fall under those guidelines. Possibly. I don't remember the details of that theory.

Thanks for the clarification, Leech!   

The 'low grade warging/skinchanging' theory is by @Cowboy Dan whom I'm pleased to see has returned to the forum (hi Cowboy! :))  The important point which proved controversial was the idea of one human voluntarily giving him- or herself up to being skinchanged by another -- skinchanging by consent as it were.  'Skinchanging light' is basically telepathy, broadly speaking.  The sex catalyst metaphor could actually be a handy way of characterising the bond, the suggestion being that such a union might therefore be catalysed either by force -- a rape trope -- or by mutual consent!

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If Littlefinger has any psi-talent, then I doubt it would be through his whores because they are whores and they sleep with many men, and if that happens, things would get crowded up in the old cranium, which would require LF to have to have sex with all these women (and men?) to stay 'up to date'.

:lol:  'red in the head and crowded in the cranium, indeed..'!  No, I don't see it either.  He seems to have a fear of bodily fluids too, with his obsession of keeping the hands clean and avoiding sticky fingers!

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This seems a little convoluted. He would be nearly unstoppable with the amount of knowledge he has. He appears that way now, although he is not. He craves chaos for selfish reasons and his Achilles heal is Sansa. He is just a clever human, which seems a better option than giving the majority of characters the plot gift of "magic".

I think GRRM sees being clever -- especially a clever wordsmith with a knack for conjuring fantastic worlds out of words...which are winds, world-conjuring whirlwinds to move people hither and thither... -- as magical in some way (not really surprising, is it? ;)).

The alignment of the greenseer archetype with the wordsmith or wielder of winds in GRRM's mind is demonstrated symbolically by the extensive library symbolism of the weirwoods, and can be seen as early as the Prologue in how he has chosen to associate all three brothers with writers (Gared for Edgar Allan Poe, Will for William Shakespeare, and finally the indestructible Waymar in his marten coat -- who silences Shakespeare -- for Martin himself...or alternatively James Joyce).

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Sansa and Arya both have Braavosi giants to take down. Arya in Braavos with either the Iron Bank, or the HoBW, or something along those monstrous lines. And Sansa has her own Braavosi giant in the form of Uncle Creepyfinger. George is not only reusing his own favorite themes from book to book, but also within the ASOIAF series itself. The original plot had Sansa betray her family (or whatever the word was). Well, that original plot both means nothing because it was changed so much, and also it shows that certain parts are not what they seemed. Sansa, when escaping KL in the written story, was supposed to go to her family. She keeps using that phrase, "to her family." But then she is trapped with the hairnet in the clutches of Petyr B, who makes her call him father as her playing the role of daughter. THIS is the "family" Sansa will now betray... and by betray, I mean be-head whether by her swinging the sword, or her using her words to pass the punishment. I think this is why George has both Sansa and Arya connected to Braavos in some way. The sisters are more alike than it seems in a first read.

Melisandre follows along, almost literally word for word, and action to action, with Morgan "full of magic" from Bitterblooms (mostly), where sex was used for manipulation and control, giving the illusion of magic, but it was really a (literal) mummer's farce.

Sex is always 'magical' from a certain perspective, particularly if the outcome is reproduction, with genetic recombination (I believe GRRM refers to it as forging a magical sword...), in which characteristics, including magical traits, from both parents are preserved ('seed is strong,' and so on).  So, for example, a First Man having sex with a magical COTF or someone else with magical ability (e.g. the Warg King's daughter) might thereby capture such magic and introduce it as a feature in his own lineage going forward.

About Sansa:  I think the universe (well, the moral universe of poetic justice a-la-GRRM) is giving her a second chance at redemption, to turn her 'blue falcon' wings around mid-flight (I do think it's clear she betrayed Arya and Ned, but no need to rehash it again, if it exasperates you so, judging from your words to Voice... :P).  Now she has the chance to stand up for her ersatz- 'sibling' (Sweetrobin in the Arya role) and 'speak' out against injustice, speaking truth to power -- maybe this will involve letting the sword speak for itself (in that case, the 'sword' she wields might be another person, such as Arya, Bran, or even Sweetrobin himself).

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Psychic contact doesn't need a weirnet -- as you've pointed out, any animal or tree can be be a host intermediary; and assuming Bloodraven was telling the truth, it's possible to go 'beyond the trees'

It appears certain animals, like direwolves, have an inherent intranet between them. We get glimpses of this from the various wolf dreams the Stark kids have. Ravens seem uniquely in tune with the weirnet itself, probably because they make direct physical contact with the trees, which seems to allow them to act as signal boosters or something.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think he orchestrated the attempt on Bran's life (unless he had previously suggested something to Joffrey -- just plain old simple instigation by vicious rumor, no magic needed).  Joffrey did it -- GRRM's ellipses proves it (Joffrey guiltily stumbling over his words upon verbal confrontation about the dagger by Tyrion ...DOT DOT DOT...pregnant with meaning!)

There are a number of problems with the idea that Joffery acted alone; OotGH go through it pretty well and so do some other youtubers. I think everyone agrees that Joffery did it, but under the influence of someone else, someone who was able to make the details work towards the purposes of the Lannister/Stark feud. Littlefinger was the one who linked the dagger to Tyrion and continued the plot in motion, so it stands to reason it was his plot the whole time, but the problem is distance: he wasn't in Winterfell, and Bran's fall was unforseen. Another problem is dedication: the assassin was really oddly dedicated to making the kill: why? And if the purpose of the attempt wasn't to cause a Lannister/Stark feud, why give the assassin such a valuable dagger? If the catspaw was deeply enthralled by Baelish via his whorenet, all those problems are solved.

Also, I like it better if Bran's death is a move by a player. It fit too nicely into the overplot to simply be a whim of a clueless sociopath.

46 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If Littlefinger has any psi-talent, then I doubt it would be through his whores because they are whores and they sleep with many men, and if that happens, things would get crowded up in the old cranium, which would require LF to have to have sex with all these women (and men?) to stay 'up to date'. This seems a little convoluted. He would be nearly unstoppable with the amount of knowledge he has.

Think of his whores as weirwoods and the johns as ravens. Bran doesn't have his mind filled with an onslaught of images from every tree and bird on the planet, he navigates the psychic web like a maze, seeing one thing at a time, learning how to find what he's looking for. Bran doesn't need to touch every weirwood, just one, and he has access to the whole network.

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17 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Think of his whores as weirwoods and the johns as ravens. Bran doesn't have his mind filled with an onslaught of images from every tree and bird on the planet, he navigates the psychic web like a maze, seeing one thing at a time, learning how to find what he's looking for. Bran doesn't need to touch every weirwood, just one, and he has access to the whole network.

The brothel with its sexual network is a great metaphor for the weirnet (in fact, LmL and I have had this argument before, about whether the greenseers or the trees represent the prostitutes, given the mutual interpenetration...), but it doesn't necessarily follow from there that all brothels are literally magical 'intranets'! 

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24 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The brothel with its sexual network is a great metaphor for the weirnet

I think not.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Think of his whores as weirwoods and the johns as ravens.

I get this idea, I just do not see this happening. There are no actual clues to this through reader "witnessing" or through in-world historic tales and examples. There has to be a set up for this. The moonsingers aren't it. We have a detailed anough background on them and nothing of this sort is mentioned. And the Moonsingers seem to be the set up for other types in the story already.

So, what is LF to do now that he is not near any of his whores while he holds the tastiest morsel in his palm who also happens to be wanted by Cersei, Varys, her Stark family, the lords of the Vale want to dispose of him, etc. It doesn't seem logical that LF would disconnect himself from his whore-net at his most vulnerable time (unless you have another idea for this).

Does he not have to make any connections with his whores anymore? You mentioned this in your reply, "Bran doesn't need to touch every weirwood, just one."

20 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

 

Bran doesn't have his mind filled with an onslaught of images from every tree and bird on the planet, he navigates the psychic web like a maze, seeing one thing at a time, learning how to find what he's looking for. Bran doesn't need to touch every weirwood, just one, and he has access to the whole network.

Well, this would imply that LF is on any sort of intellectual/teke parallel as Bran, which I do not think he is.

Bran is racing ahead in his training. He is doing things that Bloodraven says take time, but Bran is doing them now. Bran was born to do what he is going, LF got knocked the F out by a Stark. While both are near death experiences, which does seem to kickstart ones talents, you have to have that talent to begin with. It is also possible that Bran's talents saved him at the last minute, while LF was slashed and bedridden, then healed by a maester.

One thing that comes to mind :leer: is if this were true, wouldn't Petyr know the difference between sleeping with Lysa twice, and not Lysa once and Catelyn (which he thinks he did)?

I dunno. Too many loose ends for it to seem plausible, yet. I am not trying to sound obstinate, just trying to figure this out as well.

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28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The brothel with its sexual network

The brothel is a social network, a ready made place to coax words of wisdom out of people.

28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 is a great metaphor for the weirnet (in fact, LmL and I have had this argument before, about whether the greenseers or the trees represent the prostitutes, given the mutual interpenetration...), but it doesn't necessarily follow from there that all brothels are literally magical 'intranets'! 

Yeah. Probably not the strongest theorizing with this idea. There is nothing special enough about the brothels to put them in the same terrain as caves, hollow hills, magic gates, etc. The prostitutes come and go and there is only one such establishment that has anything special to it, Chataya's with her "hand's tunnel". A hotly debated hole right there.

 

Quick OT question:

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

About Sansa:  I think the universe (well, the moral universe of poetic justice a-la-GRRM) is giving her a second chance at redemption, to turn her 'blue falcon' wings around mid-flight (I do think it's clear she betrayed Arya and Ned, but no need to rehash it again, if it exasperates you so, judging from your words to Voice... :P).  Now she has the chance to stand up for her ersatz- 'sibling' (Sweetrobin in the Arya role) and 'speak' out against injustice, speaking truth to power -- maybe this will involve letting the sword speak for itself (in that case, the 'sword' she wields might be another person, such as Arya, Bran, or even Sweetrobin himself).

Doh :huh: I seem to have forgotten what you are talking about here.

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@ravenous reader @Damon_Tor

Sorry, to possibly shoot down this entire thread (though I actually like the basic premise), but if I recall correctly, Baelish did not have sex during his near-death experience. He had sex with Lysa when he was extremely drunk on the night that Cat's betrothal to Brandon was announced. I don't think he had sex with Lysa after his duel. Please correct me if I am mistaken though. :D 

I have not watched the video in the OP. I gave OotGH a chance at one point, but sometimes they say totally insane things, so I can't trust them to be logical ever and don't watch their videos.

Also, while you probably don't need direct proximity to the weirnet to be connected to it in some way, Bran was in proximity to a weirwood during Jon's wolf dream. He was in the crypts of WF, which are built right next to a weirwood. He was probably like 5 feet away from its root system.

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20 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I think not.

Oh Puppy, you have a pure heart and mind -- you don't think so..?

Quote

Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh

(ADWD - Bran II)

'Wooden serpents,' 'grave worms,' 'milk snakes' ...penetrating through breeches?  You see no phallic imagery nor echoes of Japanese tentacular porn? :devil:  This implies to my mind that the greenseer is 'servicing' many weirwoods simultaneously.

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3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@ravenous reader @Damon_Tor

Sorry, to possibly shoot down this entire thread (though I actually like the basic premise), but if I recall correctly, Baelish did not have sex during his near-death experience. He had sex with Lysa when he was extremely drunk on the night that Cat's betrothal to Brandon was announced. I don't think he had sex with Lysa after his duel. Please correct me if I am mistaken though. :D 

 

Yeah, it's implied he might have had the opportunity-- when Lysa paid frequent visits to his convalescence tower to comfort and 'nurse' him (*cough*) back to life..!

When would you say she conceived their bastard child (the first one, that is...)?

3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

I have not watched the video in the OP. I gave OotGH a chance at one point, but sometimes they say totally insane things, so I can't trust them to be logical ever and don't watch their videos.

Also, while you probably don't need direct proximity to the weirnet to be connected to it in some way, Bran was in proximity to a weirwood during Jon's wolf dream. He was in the crypts of WF, which are built right next to a weirwood. He was probably like 5 feet away from its root system.

I don't think Bran connected with Jon from the crypts, given the warg-blocking barrier posed by the Wall.  See my argument above!  

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28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The brothel is a social network, a ready made place to coax words of wisdom out of people.

I'm thinking that this a remark (quote) originated from @ravenous reader. Ladies, how offensive is the idea of whore-net?

Yes, LF runs brothels. BUT whore-net.

Truth be told the women talk, BUT whore-net ----ladies, whore ranks up there with cunt as offensive.

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3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm thinking that this a remark (quote) that originated from @ravenous reader. Ladies, how offensive is the idea of whore-net?

Yes, LF runs brothels. BUT whore-net.

Truth be told the women talk, BUT whore-net ----ladies, whore ranks up there with cunt as offensive.

The neologism 'whore-net' does not originate with me!  Behave. :spank:

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28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh Puppy, you have a pure heart and mind -- you don't think so..?

It has been part of my problem all my life.

I had to sound off because I found the idea of whore-net ugly.

 

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7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The neologism 'whore-net' does not originate with me!  Behave. :spank:

shucks, I had to go google that neologism word, learned nuttin. :whip:

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24 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm thinking that this a remark (quote) originated from @ravenous reader. Ladies, how offensive is the idea of whore-net?

Yes, LF runs brothels. BUT whore-net.

Truth be told the women talk, BUT whore-net ----ladies, whore ranks up there with cunt as offensive.

I did give it a 2.3 second thought to start calling it "KILS", as a sort of play in words with the band name KISS, and the idea paranoid parents had when they thought it meant Knights In Satans Service. 

I figured KILS as a double entendre acronym that means Knights In Littlefingers Service. 

But that is as far as I went :dunno:

The KILS-net

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15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There are no actual clues to this through reader "witnessing" or through in-world historic tales and examples. There has to be a set up for this. The moonsingers aren't it. We have a detailed anough background on them and nothing of this sort is mentioned. And the Moonsingers seem to be the set up for other types in the story already.

All true enough. It's a meta argument, but a strong one. What kind of reveal could there even be for something like this? This might just kill it for me.

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, what is LF to do now that he is not near any of his whores while he holds the tastiest morsel in his palm who also happens to be wanted by Cersei, Varys, her Stark family, the lords of the Vale want to dispose of him, etc. It doesn't seem logical that LF would disconnect himself from his whore-net at his most vulnerable time (unless you have another idea for this).

Does he not have to make any connections with his whores anymore? You mentioned this in your reply, "Bran doesn't need to touch every weirwood, just one."

The risk of staying in King's Landing was too great, and his plan requires him to move on. It's going to limit Bran's power when he has to leave the cave as well (assuming he ever will).

44 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

One thing that comes to mind :leer: is if this were true, wouldn't Petyr know the difference between sleeping with Lysa twice, and not Lysa once and Catelyn (which he thinks he did)?

IIRC, the time he thought he was having sex with Cat was before his NDE.

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