David Fincher’s Mindhunter (Netflix)

[JonArryn]

Just saw the first episode. A bit shaky but definitely some potential there. But I'm a sucker for serial killer media in general so... Agreed that some dialogue was bad and that Ford and his girlfriend don't work at all. I don't know if it's because the actors have no chemistry but something is off.

The episode stepped up a bit when Trench was introduced, like everyone here already has mentioned. Ford is naive, but isn't that a staple in a lot of stories and on of the most common tropes used? A battle hardened veteran takes a young idealist under his wings, and usually it's the young one that will change and see where the veteran is coming from. 

Enjoyed it and will continue. 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Astromech said:

Ford and Debbie's scenes together were the weakest part of the series for me. Carr and Tench were the best part of the series after the interview scenes. I was really hoping for more of Tench and Carr and less of Ford.

The direction from Filcher was excellent, but I wasn't a fan of the ending of the series.

  Hide contents

Didn't really care for Ford's breakdown when he realizes he is so similar to the subjects he's studying, but the audience could really see it happening all along. It seemed the audience was privy to an analysis of Ford's psyche while he was busy analyzing serial killers. I realize what the showrunners were going for, but would've preferred Ford remaining unaware or in denial of his own similarities.

 

I disagree 100%. 

Spoiler

One of the very important services of these scenes to the series is mirroring in a 'normal' context much of what sets the organized / disorganized killers -- i.e. society at large.  Real women in the 1970's and 80's were regularly having scenes like this with real men / boyfriends / husbands, particularly in reaction to things such as "Can't you just be a girlfriend?"  I.e., as she responds, never criticize but only adore -- and certainly not have ideas, ambitions and expertise of her own.  It's very important what happens to Ford during the course of the relationship as we see it in this season as he gets more and more manipulative with the killers -- taking on more and more of their own characteristics of hubris and self-regard -- I am always right and everyone else is a moron, that gets in my way and doesn't understand me.

 

[Astromech]

Haha, I'm not disagreeing with your analysis. What I meant by weak, was Debbie and Holden together. It was never believable that they were a couple. Part of that may be due to my growing dislike of Ford throughout the season. The role felt miscast to me.

[ljkeane]

4 hours ago, Astromech said:

I was really hoping for more of Tench and Carr and less of Ford.

I haven’t got to the end yet but Holden’s very clearly based on John E. Douglas so I don’t think it’s very likely it’s going to go that way.

[Astromech]

21 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I haven’t got to the end yet but Holden’s very clearly based on John E. Douglas so I don’t think it’s very likely it’s going to go that way.

Oh I know. I actually avoided reading the novel the show is based on due to criticisms of Douglas and his ego. It shined through in a few scenes in the series.

[Nictarion]

Through episode 6 and I'm really liking it. Love this kind of stuff, and have always been a fan of David Fincher. 

Dr. Carr reminds me of Carrie Coon. 

[Mme Erzulie]

On 10/17/2017 at 11:31 AM, Ran said:

Started watching... and I totally hit a wall with the absolutely horrid dialog that starts from Ford talking to Rathman all the way through the bar scene with Debbie. Does this improve?

I was starting to think I was the only one bothered by this. The dialogue is awful. Stilted, exposition-heavy and conspicuously constructed. It very much feels like one guy wrote everyone's lines, and he argues so badly for both/all sides that it's just cringe-worthy. 

 

 

[Werthead]

Wait, it's not spin-off from this hard-hitting noir cinematic thriller, released earlier this year?

 

[KiDisaster]

Just finished the series. The dialogue is quite spectacularly shit the whole way through, it did stop bugging me a bit in the middle episodes but by the end it was grating again. The only notable exception being some of the Kemper scenes. The scenes with Ford and Debbie are by far the worst offenders, and never seem to improve the whole way through the series. They're just not at all believable as a couple and I'm wondering if whoever wrote the dialogue has ever had an actual conversation or a relationship before. Ford in general is fucking insufferable honestly. 

Despite that it managed to hold my interest for ten episodes. 

[Ramsay B.]

The first episode or so I definitely noticed the dialogue, but I barely see it anymore. Maybe I just got used to it? Them as a couple did seem a little weird to me too but I know some pretty weird couples in real life. 

[Ran]

The attempt at witty repartee definitely lessens, but I'm afraid that the Holden-Debbie pairing never really works. Holden's actor is rather bland in his performance, but I think perhaps that's part of the idea behind the character, while Debbie's... well, I don't know whether that's just her speaking voice or not, but there's something about it that feels staccato and makes everything sound rehearsed, alas.

Tench is good -- feels very believable. Kemper's actor was fantastic. The others were well-acted but nothing we haven't seen before. It was strangely bingable -- nothing about it really leapt out as amazing to me, but I think it got by through good pacing and visual appeal. Liked the design of the location chyrons, big and bold and feeling very 70s (apparently the font, Heroic Condensed, is from 2008 but with a deliberate retro vibe). Liked the soundtrack, using period music in very apropos ways.

It was nice eyecandy.

[ljkeane]

I finished the series on Friday. I liked it but I'd say overall it's a bit of a mixed bag. The bits when they were interviewing the serial killers were really strong and when they're investigating crimes it was pretty good. I didn't particularly care about their home lives (Tench's wasn't too bad in fairness).

I do wonder were they're going to go with the series. It's basically about the development of criminal profiling and there seems to be a significant school of thought that criminal profiling doesn't have a great deal to it.

Spoiler

The crimes they solve in the series aren't really down to the insights into the criminal psyche they've gleaned from interviewing killers. It's kind of noticeable a lot of the 'profiles' they come up with are nonsense and they catch people by doing the standard looking at the fiancee thing etc. It keeps going back to Dennis Rader too who, as far as I can tell from wikipedia, wasn't caught with any sort of profiling effort.

 

[Astromech]

Interesting article discussing the direction season 2 is headed. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/10/mindhunter-who-is-adt-killer-kansas-dennis-rader-season-2-wichita-park-city

[Rippounet]

Almost finished it (9 episodes out of 10) and I really liked it. The atmosphere is excellent. The dialogues only bothered me once in a while (they do feel a bit too expository at times). The settings, the clothes, the music... It's so well done you really feel you're in the 70s.

I like the fact that the story is centered on the unit and how they learn what serial killers are rather than individual investigations. I also like how believable each investigation is: the characters can't perform miracles and don't always get what they want, which seems to reflect what a real-life investigation would be like.

Though I do feel the characters seem... naive at times. They seem to have absolutely no idea what psychopaths are, which may be credible at first (it's made clear why in the first episodes), but after Dr Carr comes in it stretches the suspension of disbelief, since she should have explained some basics to them (she was very knowledgeable from the start).
Basically, it seems hard to believe that they didn't know more on the subject to begin with, and it's unclear what they think they know as the show progresses. Sometimes they sound like experts and sometimes like amateurs. It's a bit odd, though I suppose this was done to show the viewer that their work is wip. It might have been done a bit more skillfully though.

I'm not a huge fan of Holden, but I think the point of the show is to have a rather unlikable main character, for obvious reasons.

[JonArryn]

On 2017-10-23 at 0:09 AM, Rippounet said:

Almost finished it (9 episodes out of 10) and I really liked it. The atmosphere is excellent. The dialogues only bothered me once in a while (they do feel a bit too expository at times). The settings, the clothes, the music... It's so well done you really feel you're in the 70s.

I like the fact that the story is centered on the unit and how they learn what serial killers are rather than individual investigations. I also like how believable each investigation is: the characters can't perform miracles and don't always get what they want, which seems to reflect what a real-life investigation would be like.

Though I do feel the characters seem... naive at times. They seem to have absolutely no idea what psychopaths are, which may be credible at first (it's made clear why in the first episodes), but after Dr Carr comes in it stretches the suspension of disbelief, since she should have explained some basics to them (she was very knowledgeable from the start).
Basically, it seems hard to believe that they didn't know more on the subject to begin with, and it's unclear what they think they know as the show progresses. Sometimes they sound like experts and sometimes like amateurs. It's a bit odd, though I suppose this was done to show the viewer that their work is wip. It might have been done a bit more skillfully though.

I'm not a huge fan of Holden, but I think the point of the show is to have a rather unlikable main character, for obvious reasons.

Agree with you. The atmosphere is one of the shows strengths. I too have only one episode left and I've been enjoying the show. As you say, it's a realistic police show, which you don't always get. Characters get defeats now and then and the plot doesn't just make turns when it suits. 

And it's good that Tench is in the show, because he's really needed as one of the two main characters. Holden is interesting, but I agree that the scenes with him and Debbie feel off, really off at times. It feels like they're just reading lines from a stage. Very theatre-like, except theatre is amde that way and usually have better dialogue. 

Anyway, I feel that the subject this show treats is what makes it good. They're having an interesting subject that it's about. And regarding their naivitete. I think that's very deliberate. This show is about how the behavioral unit gets started so they're supposed to don't know much about serial killers and psychopaths. It just wasn't a question that was discussed before. And yeah, it's the 70's so I too felt it was a bit late at first, but if you look at history it's the same thing. Some things seem to get discussed later then others, and serial killers is one of them. 

 

[Mexal]

We finished it last night. Really enjoyed it. I'm glad they didn't focus on the actual killings but more the psychology behind them. Thought everything worked except Debbie and I liked the multiple episode arcs rather than a season arc which drags in the middle. Never felt bored and never felt there was a point that I didn't want to watch the next episode.

[MisterOJ]

I finished it a couple days ago. I thought it was pretty entertaining. Not necessarily high art, but it kept me watching.

One thing about that ending though... was Netflix committed to a second season from the beginning? Because if not, that's a heck of a gamble. If this one season was all we got and it ended like that, I'd be super pissed.

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, MisterOJ said:

I finished it a couple days ago. I thought it was pretty entertaining. Not necessarily high art, but it kept me watching.

One thing about that ending though... was Netflix committed to a second season from the beginning? Because if not, that's a heck of a gamble. If this one season was all we got and it ended like that, I'd be super pissed.

Netflix normally commits to at least a 2nd season and with Fincher involved, not surprised if they knew it'd come.

[Rippounet]

I liked the finale.

Even if I saw it coming, it was still well done. Enough to cast an entirely different light on the very first episode and make me want to watch it again. That alone is an achievement for a tv show in my book.

[snowleper]

I think Fincher did a fantastic job with this. But more than anything I think I really enjoyed the very dry dark humor in Mindhunter.

It was refreshing to be shown a story rather than be told what to think or feel about it. Particularly when the subject matter is such an easy thing to moralize about. 

The characters were flawed and interesting. The scenes and lighting very carefully constructed. And Fincher was able to throw in a lot of nuance without compromising the narrative objectivity.

That being said, I think the initial dialog between Holden and Debbie was supposed to be awkward. Particularly if Kemper pegged him correctly, and Holden was actually a virgin. But even so -- it's often very hard to clearly pin down the constructed/fictive intent.