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House Rootbreaker

Cersei Forgot About Littlefinger?

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I'm pretty sure this is due to the accelerated pace of season 7 compared to others, but as Cersei is digging deep to find any ally that doesn't despise her (or at least ones she "thinks" doesn't despise her) why did she totally forget about Littlefinger in the north?  Last we saw, she was ready to name him Warden of the North if he took over Winterfell with his nights of the vale.  So far it seems she hasn't bothered to check the status of that, which might be excusable given her other distractions.  But as she is preparing for war on her front doorstep, wouldn't she try and rely on Littlefinger for some help?  Considering he is the only mainstay on the small council she was apart of for so long that is actually alive, you'd think it would be more of a priority. Also given the fact that, in her mind at least, he is one of the few devoted to the crown that has an army.

But then I suppose that would create a paradox since the show now acts like the riverlands, the neck, and the vale don't exist, so it wouldn't make sense for Littlefinger to travel through places that the show has forgotten about. But on the flip side, Jon traveled all the way from the north in less than one episode so anything is possible.

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I think that at the end of last season LF said that now everyone knows he declared for Starks of Winterfell so Cersei should not still think he is on her side. Still weird he didn't mention him though

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1 hour ago, House Rootbreaker said:

I'm pretty sure this is due to the accelerated pace of season 7 compared to others, but as Cersei is digging deep to find any ally that doesn't despise her (or at least ones she "thinks" doesn't despise her) why did she totally forget about Littlefinger in the north?  Last we saw, she was ready to name him Warden of the North if he took over Winterfell with his nights of the vale.  So far it seems she hasn't bothered to check the status of that, which might be excusable given her other distractions.  But as she is preparing for war on her front doorstep, wouldn't she try and rely on Littlefinger for some help?  Considering he is the only mainstay on the small council she was apart of for so long that is actually alive, you'd think it would be more of a priority. Also given the fact that, in her mind at least, he is one of the few devoted to the crown that has an army.

But then I suppose that would create a paradox since the show now acts like the riverlands, the neck, and the vale don't exist, so it wouldn't make sense for Littlefinger to travel through places that the show has forgotten about. But on the flip side, Jon traveled all the way from the north in less than one episode so anything is possible.

i dont think she cares about people despise her not, she proved very well that she can be very dangerous, and i assume lannisters still have some influence (basically thanks to tywin)

i think she already knows about littlefingers' betrayal, the second he brought sansa to winterfell to wed ramsay everyone knew she was with him all this time and considering she has spies pretty much everywhere, and the gossip seemingly spread so fast in westeros, id be very surprised if she doesnt know...she also got smarter and should know better not to trust him ever...

another thing...personally i dont think it will matter at the end cos i see littlefinger as a dead man...there should be more than just a reunion in arya's decision to going to winterfell and i believe she will love to have the chance of killing him

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7 hours ago, Jasemina said:

i dont think she cares about people despise her not, she proved very well that she can be very dangerous, and i assume lannisters still have some influence (basically thanks to tywin)

i think she already knows about littlefingers' betrayal, the second he brought sansa to winterfell to wed ramsay everyone knew she was with him all this time and considering she has spies pretty much everywhere, and the gossip seemingly spread so fast in westeros, id be very surprised if she doesnt know...she also got smarter and should know better not to trust him ever...

another thing...personally i dont think it will matter at the end cos i see littlefinger as a dead man...there should be more than just a reunion in arya's decision to going to winterfell and i believe she will love to have the chance of killing him

She doesn't know of Littlefingers betrayal, she thinks the Bolton's betrayed her by marrying Sansa.  When LF travleled to Kings Landing he gave Cersei the impression it was totally Roose Bolton's idea to marry Sansa to Ramsey.  It was Cersei that told him to recapture Winterfell with the Knights of the Vale and that was the last interaction and or words Cersei had about LF.  So if we go on what the show gives us, she thinks LF and the Vale are loyal to the crown. In the logic that usually plays out in GoT she would know this is not true as you said, but the show doesn't acknowledge it which I think doesn't make sense.  Throughout season 1-6 people all over Westeros remarked when ravens sent word of battles, castles being sacked, power changing hands, and that was the mortar that held the ASOIAF bricks together.  I think this expedited season 7 is not doing the story justice by just doing without it.

 

I agree, LF is most likely a dead man, but by Sansa's hands I believe.  These days, he just leans against a wall and looks devious, but in earlier seasons he wasn't looking devious, he was out doing devious things.  It's definitely apparent he does not have the same power he used to.  I don't know if that's what GRRM intends for him in the next 2 novels or the show writers picked this path for him because of lack of time.

Him aiding Cersie has little bearing if any on the ultimate outcome.  But the fact that it's not entertained at all makes no sense.  It reminds me of every Hollywood foot chase scene where the bad guy chases the good guy, loses sight of him in a building, but always picks the correct hallway to run down on his first try.  Make it a little more realistic and have him choose wrong hallway like a normal person would you know?

The icing on the cake is in Cersei's POV chapters in the books. She is so paranoid of anybody that is in the slightest possible scenario to betray her (even with no evidence to support they would) that they are immediately on her radar.  She is always thinking about who can screw her over, so it betrays her character to show her having no thoughts or concerns of LF at all.

Edited by House Rootbreaker

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8 hours ago, House Rootbreaker said:

I'm pretty sure this is due to the accelerated pace of season 7 compared to others, but as Cersei is digging deep to find any ally that doesn't despise her (or at least ones she "thinks" doesn't despise her) why did she totally forget about Littlefinger in the north?  Last we saw, she was ready to name him Warden of the North if he took over Winterfell with his nights of the vale.  So far it seems she hasn't bothered to check the status of that, which might be excusable given her other distractions.  But as she is preparing for war on her front doorstep, wouldn't she try and rely on Littlefinger for some help?  Considering he is the only mainstay on the small council she was apart of for so long that is actually alive, you'd think it would be more of a priority. Also given the fact that, in her mind at least, he is one of the few devoted to the crown that has an army.

But then I suppose that would create a paradox since the show now acts like the riverlands, the neck, and the vale don't exist, so it wouldn't make sense for Littlefinger to travel through places that the show has forgotten about. But on the flip side, Jon traveled all the way from the north in less than one episode so anything is possible.

I think that she knows he betrayed her or lost since jon was made king of the north. It would have been cool if they had mentioned it in addition to jon and sansa ruling in the north

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14 minutes ago, House Rootbreaker said:

She doesn't know of Littlefingers betrayal, she thinks the Bolton's betrayed her by marrying Sansa.  When LF travleled to Kings Landing he gave Cersei the impression it was totally Roose Bolton's idea to marry Sansa to Ramsey.  It was Cersei that told him to recapture Winterfell with the Knights of the Vale and that was the last interaction and or words Cersei had about LF.  So if we go on what the show gives us, she thinks LF and the Vale are loyal to the crown. In the logic that usually plays out in GoT she would know this is not true as you said, but the show doesn't acknowledge it which I think doesn't make sense.  Throughout season 1-6 people all over Westeros remarked when ravens sent word of battles, castles being sacked, power changing hands, and that was the mortar that held the ASOIAF bricks together.  I think this expedited season 7 is not doing the story justice by just doing without it.

 

I agree, LF is most likely a dead man, but by Sansa's hands I believe.  These days, he just leans against a wall and looks devious, but in earlier seasons he wasn't looking devious, he was out doing devious things.  It's definitely apparent he does not have the same power he used to.  I don't know if that's what GRRM intends for him in the next 2 novels or the show writers picked this path for him because of lack of time.

Him aiding Cersie has little bearing if any on the ultimate outcome.  But the fact that it's not entertained at all makes no sense.  It reminds me of every Hollywood foot chase scene where the bad guy chases the good guy, loses sight of him in a building, but always picks the correct hallway to run down on his first try.  Make it a little more realistic and have him choose wrong hallway like a normal person would you know?

The icing on the cake is in Cersei's POV chapters in the books. She is so paranoid of anybody that is in the slightest possible scenario to betray her (even with no evidence to support they would) that they are immediately on her radar.  She is always thinking about who can screw her over, so it betrays her character to show her having no thoughts or concerns of LF at all.

She isn't nearly as bad as she is in the books. in the books her paranoia is incredible. Also with the exception of her blowing up the sept she does alot worse things in the books as well. My take on it is they wanted to make her a character that was more acceptable.

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I made the same thread after episode 1:

LF's status to Cersei is wierd, unexplained and probably a plothole. Because who cares about a man who commands the army of the Vale, right?

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22 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I made the same thread after episode 1:

LF's status to Cersei is wierd, unexplained and probably a plothole. Because who cares about a man who commands the army of the Vale, right?

Ah yes, we were both thinking the same thing!  It's a plothole, but contrary to what happened in earlier seasons, the writers seem to just ignore plotholes this season and forge on with a more limited focus.

While this is difficult to watch since I've been used to the detailed and well thought out writing of seasons past, this makes the books even more wothwhile.  If and when they ever arrive.....

I was always bummed that I'd watch season 8 and know basically how the series ends before reading it.  But it appears the books will have a lot more detail and be truer to what GRRM intended for the conclusion of the series all along.

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On 3. 8. 2017 at 5:12 PM, House Rootbreaker said:

Ah yes, we were both thinking the same thing!  It's a plothole, but contrary to what happened in earlier seasons, the writers seem to just ignore plotholes this season and forge on with a more limited focus.

While this is difficult to watch since I've been used to the detailed and well thought out writing of seasons past, this makes the books even more wothwhile.  If and when they ever arrive.....

I was always bummed that I'd watch season 8 and know basically how the series ends before reading it.  But it appears the books will have a lot more detail and be truer to what GRRM intended for the conclusion of the series all along.

Definitely. When you think of all the characters, storylines, history and lore etc that are in the books but aren't in the show, it's clear that the books are just something else. For example I am really curious about what will happen in the Vale in the books and this just won't happen in the show. Even if some of the story ends are same in the show and in the books, the show is like a version simplified to the extreme , like a "veni, vidi, vici" of a battle, while the books are a detailed narration of the fight with all the fighters being more or less equally important for the outcome o the battle.

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I think the OP-question is justified. Even in the way the Show is written and Show-Cersei behaves: It is curious (and to me a shear plothole) that in epsiode 1 druing her conversation with Jaime, when she enumerates all foes in the North, South, East and West, the name Littlefinger should have been mentioned in one way or another.

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On 01/08/2017 at 5:27 PM, House Rootbreaker said:

I'm pretty sure this is due to the accelerated pace of season 7 compared to others, but as Cersei is digging deep to find any ally that doesn't despise her (or at least ones she "thinks" doesn't despise her) why did she totally forget about Littlefinger in the north?  Last we saw, she was ready to name him Warden of the North if he took over Winterfell with his nights of the vale.  So far it seems she hasn't bothered to check the status of that, which might be excusable given her other distractions.  But as she is preparing for war on her front doorstep, wouldn't she try and rely on Littlefinger for some help?  Considering he is the only mainstay on the small council she was apart of for so long that is actually alive, you'd think it would be more of a priority. Also given the fact that, in her mind at least, he is one of the few devoted to the crown that has an army.

But then I suppose that would create a paradox since the show now acts like the riverlands, the neck, and the vale don't exist, so it wouldn't make sense for Littlefinger to travel through places that the show has forgotten about. But on the flip side, Jon traveled all the way from the north in less than one episode so anything is possible.

Peterfinger was only Master of Coin + Lord of Harrenhall + Lord of the Vale (The guy has 2 Kingdoms) + Council Member + Spymaster.

Half a season has passed and Cersei never mentioned him. She should be furious at him for saving the Stark from extintion and taking away the North from her and her Bolton vassals.

I think LF is going to die in episode 4 and I bet Cersei will never mention him this season.

This has happened before with the Tyrells, Margeary and Loras. Margeary was set up to have a big plan and just got rekt. They're doing it again.

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On 01/08/2017 at 6:27 PM, House Rootbreaker said:

I'm pretty sure this is due to the accelerated pace of season 7 compared to others, but as Cersei is digging deep to find any ally that doesn't despise her (or at least ones she "thinks" doesn't despise her) why did she totally forget about Littlefinger in the north?  Last we saw, she was ready to name him Warden of the North if he took over Winterfell with his nights of the vale.  So far it seems she hasn't bothered to check the status of that, which might be excusable given her other distractions.  But as she is preparing for war on her front doorstep, wouldn't she try and rely on Littlefinger for some help?  Considering he is the only mainstay on the small council she was apart of for so long that is actually alive, you'd think it would be more of a priority. Also given the fact that, in her mind at least, he is one of the few devoted to the crown that has an army.

But then I suppose that would create a paradox since the show now acts like the riverlands, the neck, and the vale don't exist, so it wouldn't make sense for Littlefinger to travel through places that the show has forgotten about. But on the flip side, Jon traveled all the way from the north in less than one episode so anything is possible.

They are rushing through so much! I don't understand why a show which is on a subscription channel still has a fixed duration length. Episodes should be as long as they need to be - guess it has to do with after sales, when the show gets sold to terrestrial channels for broadcast.

(I guessI just answered my own query.)

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I'm wondering what sort of evil scheme Little Finger is hatching now. We see him mooning after Sansa, but we know LF works every angle possible to his own benefit. And how long will the Knights of the Vale put up with him? Little Robin is back in the Vale.  Will Royce stick a sword in his back and be done with him? Royce is probably Robins heir anyway, so why not? The Lords of the Vale have their own cause to align with Winterfell and the Starks, they don't need worthless Lord Balish. He brings nothing but treachery to the equation.

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6 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Little Robin is back in the Vale.  Will Royce stick a sword in his back and be done with him? Royce is probably Robins heir anyway, so why not?

Why kill Robin, when you can keep him around as a figurehead? He's apparently still living at Runestone, under charge of Royce's castellan. And once LF is bumped off, he'll do whatever Royce and/or Sansa want.

Meanwhile, I don't see any indication that Royce is his heir—but even if he were, unless the succession is absolutely clear, and there's nobody worried in the slightest bit about Royce's ambition, that would just be asking for trouble; it would still be far better to wait until the wars are over and everyone's cooled down.

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I had a misplaced modifier. I meant Royce putting a sword in Little Fingers back, not Robins. Robin is just so sickly that it seems miraculous that he continues to live. In the books one of the houses of the vale was Robins heir but I forget which one. But that does not mean the t.v. show will follow suit. There is a plan for the Vale as well, but I am wondering more what Little Finger is up to, besides lording over the Vale by proxy.

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3 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I had a misplaced modifier. I meant Royce putting a sword in Little Fingers back, not Robins. Robin is just so sickly that it seems miraculous that he continues to live. In the books one of the houses of the vale was Robins heir but I forget which one. But that does not mean the t.v. show will follow suit. There is a plan for the Vale as well, but I am wondering more what Little Finger is up to, besides lording over the Vale by proxy.

Well, Royce isn't exactly the shadowy assassin type. I could see him getting away with the murder of an isolated boy in a near-deserted castle under control of his own castellan, but publicly killing a prominent figure in a crowded castle town? He'd be caught, and Jon or Sansa would be forced to punish him.

Also, he seems to believe the threat of the Army of the Dead; why add a major distraction?

As for the other stuff: book!Robert is on death's door, and Harry the Heir is Lady Waynwood's ward (and vassal, and cousin). She and Royce are friendly-ish cousins, and maybe he'd be fine going down a rung and playing second fiddle to her. But LF has manipulated everything, and that's not how things would turn out. For example, she would not be happy that all of her late husband's debts, which LF was going to forgive as an engagement present for Harry and Sansa, are now (presumably) in the hands of some less-amenable creditor. On the other hand, book!LF's plans for the Vale are nowhere near complete—he has to get Sansa and Harry married and pregnant and moving on the North in under a year before he wins—so there might be more to gain from offing him now.

But on the show, all of that is wildly different. LF's Vale plan is completed, but there have been enough monkeywrenches along the way that he's not as secure as he'd hoped. Robin is sickly, but not to the point that he's likely to die any day now. Nobody seems to be worrying about the succession issue, and Harry doesn't even exist. The inter-House rivalries don't seem to be a big deal; they're all pretty amicable, and everyone considers Royce the most respected among them. So, with LF gone, and Sansa off in a position of power in Winterfell (which he'd want anyway, for both pure and pragmatic reasons), Royce could probably rule through Robin until at least the end of the current crises, and he's got plenty of time to plan for whatever comes next. So, it might make sense, were it not for the whole murder charge and Night King issues.

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Back to Little Finger. Little Finger always has a scheme, a plot and an undercurrent. He slithers around setting up his schemes until he strikes.  When he strikes someone dies, someone is destroyed and Little Finger benefits. Lately, LF has been seen smiling and slithering. I wonder what his next scheme is, when will he strike, who will die and how will he benefit? Who will he destroy next? It's making me nervous. LF is the cat that plays with his mouse before he eats it.  Does anyone have any ideas?

 

And sidebar, LF claims he has proclaimed for house Stark for all to hear, yet no one has mentioned it, especially not Cercei, or did I just miss that? Did he really proclaim for house Stark for all to hear, or is that more LF b.s.? Even if he did, who is to say he isn't having a different conversation with Cercei, via ravens of course?

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1 hour ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Back to Little Finger. Little Finger always has a scheme, a plot and an undercurrent. He slithers around setting up his schemes until he strikes.  When he strikes someone dies, someone is destroyed and Little Finger benefits. Lately, LF has been seen smiling and slithering. I wonder what his next scheme is, when will he strike, who will die and how will he benefit? Who will he destroy next? It's making me nervous. LF is the cat that plays with his mouse before he eats it.  Does anyone have any ideas?

LF's existing scheme—after going better than he could even have expected—has now fallen apart in every way. But he claims to love chaos, and the opportunity to come up with new plans before anyone else can, so, here are my guesses at what he's coming up with:

Step 1 is to play up the small rivalries and differences between Jon and Sansa and turn them into something bigger. Ideally in a way that makes Jon look unreasonable, so people take Sansa's side. And also stop worrying so much about his distracting crusade against the Dead, so he can manipulate them into the stuff he cares about.

But this is where his internal conflict comes into play. He may want to get everyone on Sansa's side, but at the same time, he wants to isolate her so she's forced to come back to him. There are a few ways he could achieve both at once (say, asking her to marry him if she wants to keep the Vale Lords), but I don't think he's going to do that; he's just not even going to realize he has conflicting motivations, and will work at cross purposes to himself.

Once Arya shows up, he'll quickly work out that she's not an asset he can use for Sansa against Jon, so he'll instead try to play her against Sansa—that'll be his way to force Sansa back to him, without sacrificing his plan to put Sansa on top.

That'll look like it's working for about one episode, and then it'll fail miserably. I'm not sure whether it'll be Sansa seeing through a lie, the Hound showing up with new information, or what, but everything will come crashing down all at once, and Sansa will hold a trial and sentence him to death.

If I were writing it, I'd want to undercut the triumphant revenge moment rather than glorifying it: The woman who passes the sentence should swing the sword, but Sansa is way too weak to cleanly decapitate anyone, so LF's execution is a bloody, horrific mess. But I don't think the show is going to do that. They'll just have Arya carry out the execution, and it'll be a fist-pumping Yay Team Stark moment, basically resetting Arya's S7 character arc so they can play it out all over again in S8.

ETA:

1 hour ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

And sidebar, LF claims he has proclaimed for house Stark for all to hear, yet no one has mentioned it, especially not Cercei, or did I just miss that?

I think the Vale Lords acclaiming Jon as King in the North pretty much forces his hand. Either he's on Team Stark now, or he has no control over his own army's loyalty; either way, he's lost Cersei. He may even talk about putting out feelers toward Dany, but I don't think there's enough time to do anything with that in S7.

Meanwhile, nobody's mentioned the Vale at all, but then nobody's mentioned who succeeded Walder Frey in the Riverlands, or even Stannis in the Stormlands. I think that's just the show not telling us about things that aren't going to be relevant to the endgame, rather than giving us clues for big revelations to come.

Edited by falcotron

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Pretty sure LF must be working as a double agent or at least pretending to. Cersei may still believe he is on her team but pretending to be team stark until the right moment. If so, then she sees him well-placed with insider info and a large army in place that can defeat the north at any time.  Think Severus Snape in Hogwarts :D.

As we all know, LF is on team LF. He was certainly very interested when they were talking about Dany. With Sansa giving him the cold shoulder and Jon being openly aggressive to him, it will be interesting to see how he plays things with Dany and he could still tell Cersei he's doing it all for her.

 

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20 hours ago, falcotron said:

LF's existing scheme—after going better than he could even have expected—has now fallen apart in every way. But he claims to love chaos, and the opportunity to come up with new plans before anyone else can, so, here are my guesses at what he's coming up with:

Step 1 is to play up the small rivalries and differences between Jon and Sansa and turn them into something bigger. Ideally in a way that makes Jon look unreasonable, so people take Sansa's side. And also stop worrying so much about his distracting crusade against the Dead, so he can manipulate them into the stuff he cares about.

But this is where his internal conflict comes into play. He may want to get everyone on Sansa's side, but at the same time, he wants to isolate her so she's forced to come back to him. There are a few ways he could achieve both at once (say, asking her to marry him if she wants to keep the Vale Lords), but I don't think he's going to do that; he's just not even going to realize he has conflicting motivations, and will work at cross purposes to himself.

Once Arya shows up, he'll quickly work out that she's not an asset he can use for Sansa against Jon, so he'll instead try to play her against Sansa—that'll be his way to force Sansa back to him, without sacrificing his plan to put Sansa on top.

That'll look like it's working for about one episode, and then it'll fail miserably. I'm not sure whether it'll be Sansa seeing through a lie, the Hound showing up with new information, or what, but everything will come crashing down all at once, and Sansa will hold a trial and sentence him to death.

If I were writing it, I'd want to undercut the triumphant revenge moment rather than glorifying it: The woman who passes the sentence should swing the sword, but Sansa is way too weak to cleanly decapitate anyone, so LF's execution is a bloody, horrific mess. But I don't think the show is going to do that. They'll just have Arya carry out the execution, and it'll be a fist-pumping Yay Team Stark moment, basically resetting Arya's S7 character arc so they can play it out all over again in S8.

ETA:

I think the Vale Lords acclaiming Jon as King in the North pretty much forces his hand. Either he's on Team Stark now, or he has no control over his own army's loyalty; either way, he's lost Cersei. He may even talk about putting out feelers toward Dany, but I don't think there's enough time to do anything with that in S7.

Meanwhile, nobody's mentioned the Vale at all, but then nobody's mentioned who succeeded Walder Frey in the Riverlands, or even Stannis in the Stormlands. I think that's just the show not telling us about things that aren't going to be relevant to the endgame, rather than giving us clues for big revelations to come.

Thank you, that is spot on.

Some houses have completely died out and some are probably digging up the distant cousins to move to the head of the houses. The Baratheons seem to be gone except for the one bastard on the run. Chances are Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey's son is now the lord of the Twins since Arya did not kill the women and children, and it is doubtful she killed Edmure, her own blood.

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