Jamie, Cersei, and the Mad King

[Sir Dingleberry]

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

Why would you assume that? Nobody in-universe seems to think that's true. Jaime, Barristan, and other people who were there have talked about it, and they all seem to think everything he did was motivated by paranoia and spite, not by an interest in maintaining peace. 

True, the realm was peaceful for much of Aerys's reign, but more in spite of him than because of him. In fact, it was arguably because Jaime's father, as Hand, was willing to do whatever it took to preserve peace. Exactly as Jaime claims Cersei is doing now.

Of course in reality, Cersei is far more Aerys than Tywin, and Jaime has to lie to himself to believe otherwise. But the fact that she clearly wants to be Tywin, and believes that she's pulling it off, makes that lie a lot easier to swallow.

And when you ask when Jaime is going to finally get over Cersei and do the right thing, I think that's where the answer is: when that lie to himself becomes unsustainable.

Ya, I'm not saying he was actually maintaining the peace but in his mind he is keeping the peace, aka maintaining his status and keeping everything relatively under his control.  I'm well aware the guy was crazy.  Same concept for Cersei and Jamie.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

I think his breaking point is when he realizes that Cersei is the downfall of the Lannisters.  Because of her actions, his father and his kids are dead.  When he sees Tyrion again, and they talk he might turn on his sister.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Lady Snowsand said:

I think his breaking point is when he realizes that Cersei is the downfall of the Lannisters.  Because of her actions, his father and his kids are dead.  When he sees Tyrion again, and they talk he might turn on his sister.

In the books, where he's searching for a family identity, that works. But on the show, I think they're looking to give him an unambiguous heroic redemption. And turning on her over something to do with the War for the Dawn is about as heroic as you can get.

9 hours ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Ya, I'm not saying he was actually maintaining the peace but in his mind he is keeping the peace, aka maintaining his status and keeping everything relatively under his control.  I'm well aware the guy was crazy.  Same concept for Cersei and Jamie.

Well, I'm not sure he thought he was maintaining peace even in his own mind; he'd be fine with a permanent orgy of bloodshed, as long as it was him rather than his son he ruled it.

Whereas Cersei is deluded enough to convince herself that once she wins, everyone will live happily ever after, and all this bloodshed is just necessary to get to that point. And Jaime is blinded enough to believe that's her core motivation, not just a rationalization she tells herself and everyone else—and, more importantly, that she could succeed at it.

Look at the difference between their wildfire plots. Aerys was going to blow up all of KL, including himself, just to spite Robert. Cersei blew up the Keep, which not only defeated all of her enemies, but somehow (I have no idea how, but it's pretty clearly what happened on the show) brought all the people of KL together on one side, and if it weren't for the threat of Dany, they'd all live happily ever after now. That's why one is justifiable to him and the other isn't.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

If Jamie doesn't die, I believe he will be the 1,000 Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He will be the one to restore it to its former glory.

[falcotron]

3 minutes ago, Lady Snowsand said:

If Jamie doesn't die, I believe he will be the 1,000 Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He will be the one to restore it to its former glory.

A white-haired, openly-disfigured guy who's most famous for having killed a rightful king because it was as necessary as it was dishonorable, as Lord Commander?

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Think about it, he is on a redemption arch in the books. He goes from being a Kingsguard (white) and hated, to a member of the Night's Watch (black) and loved.  Also, if he survives, where else can he go.  He is a Kingslayer, he is also a great knight and a great fighter (or used to be one).  If he went to the Wall (if it's still standing at the end), it would bring some sort of honor back to taking the Black.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Lady Snowsand said:

Think about it, he is on a redemption arch in the books. He goes from being a Kingsguard (white) and hated, to a member of the Night's Watch (black) and loved.  Also, if he survives, where else can he go.  He is a Kingslayer, he is also a great knight and a great fighter (or used to be one).  If he went to the Wall (if it's still standing at the end), it would bring some sort of honor back to taking the Black.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was comparing him to Bloodraven, probably the most famous previous Lord Commander.

And, for a more serious comparison: While they're very different people, the key thing they have in common is doing things that can't rightly be rewarded—or even tolerated—at court, but nevertheless had to be done. The only sensible thing a society like Westeros can do with people like that is put them on the Wall. Tywin and Robert didn't get that right, of course, but that doesn't mean Tyrion and Dany won't. (After all, it's central to all of the characters involved that Tyrion understands who Jaime is, flaws and all, while Tywin only saw who he wanted Jaime to be, and that's why Tyrion is the one who really loves him.)