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So did anyone else notice dany just broke the laws of hospitality?

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45 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

But he does, although later changed his mind,  he explicitly says to Tyrion that he needs to help his people for what is coming,  that he can't do it from there, and that  he wants to leave... and I did not hear Tyrion answering "You are free to leave whenever you want".
Anyway, I took Dani violation of guest right as plain ignorance. After all, show Dani was raised and educated by who? Vyseris and Illyrio? Hardly the best  teachers about Westerosi traditions.
But this "ignorance" is lazy writing too, with Tyrion as her adviser that shouldn't have happened. 
And I go farther, nor should have Dani offended Jon by taking their swords at his arrival, because this is like making clear that "the hosts" considered Jon himself capable of  eventuallly breaking guest right, and Tyrion knows Jon far too well for believing such a thing.

Tyrion isn't the one in charge here...it wouldn't have mattered if he did respond "you are free to leave."  And again, Jon has still not requested to leave.  And he won't now because he did change his mind, because he sees why he came to Dragonstone in the first place and Dany is helping him out.  

And again, I'm not reading "ignorance" into Dany's actions nor Tyrion's counsel here- For once, they are both being smart.  She knows she needs and wants Jon as an ally now more than ever, and furthermore she does have a sense of honor/doing the right thing regarding the White Walkers and is still trying to buy what Jon is selling her on that.  So keep Jon around until you get that alliance from him.  

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Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

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13 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

I think you are my new favorite poster.

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35 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

I guess she could, but she's not sitting the Iron Throne or ruling Westeros yet, ask Stannis how that whole ruling Dragonstone worked out for him.  So, if she's going to punish everyone who won't bend the knee to the Queen without a kingdom, she's going to have a long hard road to winning.

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14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess she could, but she's not sitting the Iron Throne or ruling Westeros yet, ask Stannis how that whole ruling Dragonstone worked out for him.  So, if she's going to punish everyone who won't bend the knee to the Queen without a kingdom, she's going to have a long hard road to winning.

Unfortunately, Jon was forced to go to her seeking help because he have shortage in time, normally he will go after the war like Cersei said to Euron "When the war is won"

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8 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, until she actually prevents Jon from leaving I disagree.  As of now, Jon still wants to be there because he needs the Dragonglass and he needs her as an ally.  She is doing right by him IMO by allowing him to mine the Dragonglass.  But yes, I'd agree if Jon truly makes it clear he wants to leave but he has not done that yet.

uh when they take away your ship and your weapons and then send you to your rooms...he asked if they were her prisoners and she said not yet....when jon says he is a prisoner to tyrion tyrion says not really your able to walk around the island. Jon is a king and she took him captive when he came and did nothing wrong. in real life she would have started a freaking war with the north right then and there

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1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

WTF? Did dany asks any question about jon deserting..nope so your argument there is bull. And the problem isn't how she reveived him if she wants to recieve visitors like that it is fine. What isn't fine is taking them prisoner when they came to talk.  Also considering if the dead win then there will never be another summer she can't go to the east since if it summer never comes then everything in the world will die from starvation.

Also dany isn't queen yet and as far as jon knows she is just the daughter of the man who burned his grandfather alive and strangled his uncle. Who brought dothraki who are known for doing two things rape and ensalving people. Not really someone you want coming into your country.  Also jon asking for help is kinda important given that the dead won't just kill the northerners but wait for it...EVERYONE! Yeah she has a claim but jon wasn't arrogant but came in humble and didn't object to giving up his weapons even when he is surrounded by dothraki. Jon didn't do anything wrong and if you think he did and he desevred to be taken prisoner then you are fooloing yourself and letting your bias for dany blind you.

 

I liked dany in the previous seasons so I am not a dany hater but this was not something that is done in westero's or at least not supposed to be done.

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2 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did. 

That’s debatable, and since everyone is entitled to his opinion and I already gave mine, I have no comment on this.

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

 Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel. 

Jon did not break any oath, although I admit Dani does not know it. Nor she knows what “the laws of the kingdom” are, which is her excuse for not wondering how a former Commander of the Night’s Watch can be the current King in the North.

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing. 

He is offering the most important thing, a priceless piece of information that she lacks, and that can save her life and the lives of many of the people she brought with her and for whose lives she is responsible.

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

What makes you think that the upcoming Long Night does not affect Essos? The Prince who was Promised, the Great Other, the Red Faith of R'hllor, are all eastern traditions and legends, they don’t talk about an event that  once happened and will happen again, in some other continent alone.. Why do you think Melisandre came to Westeros desperately looking for TPtwP? To save some people on the other side of the world?

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom. 

Of course it is. There were Kings in the North for centuries before the Targaryens, followed by a short period of 280 or so years of one united kingdom under Targaryen ruling, and some 17 years of one united Kingdom under Baratheon ruling. House Targaryen broke its covenant with the North by murderirng its liege Lord and his heir, and the same did Baratheon dynasty by murdering Ned. The North is now an independent kingdom, and owes no loyalty to Dani.

In addition, as others pointed out in this and other threads, calling yourself a “Queen” does not make you so. When Cercei pompously also called herself “Queen of the Seven Kingdoms”, her brother accurately said “Three, at best”. The proper answer for Dani would have been “two, at best”, considering that the Reach and Dorne were willing to swear fealty to her. But in fact, Dani is Queen of no kingdom (yet), given that most of the Reach Lords followed Lord Tarly and now fight  on Cersei’s side, and apparently in the show, the only dornish House were the Martells.

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

The surprising thing to me is that a person who does not burn and calls herself “mother” of magical creatures, does not even ask more when she is told that the dead are coming to take her and everybody else.

3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

Lol

Then I guess  that  Dani will be very grateful for her good luck that she didn’t choose to punish him and  decided to be generous; so when the NK comes her armies will have some useful weapons to fight WW instead of being all killed and turned in wights ipso facto.

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3 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

What use is it to Dany to punish Jon? She just has her dragons and dothraki now. If the North notices Jon gone, she will have another place that despise her along with the Vale. And if you want to speculate Arya is coming home she could infiltrate the place and Bran could possibly warg her dragon.

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Has Jon been harmed? No. Have his men been harmed? No. 

She's still ahead of Walder Frey in the hospitality department and he had no excuse because he did grow up in Westeros.

But this might be a good place to point out that if she wants to rule seven Kingdoms, she doesn't need the North. When Dorne joined it became eight kingdoms, so the North can secede and she can still rule seven. Easy peasy. Tyrion or Varys should have pointed out this solution already.

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40 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Has Jon been harmed? No. Have his men been harmed? No. 

She's still ahead of Walder Frey in the hospitality department and he had no excuse because he did grow up in Westeros.

But this might be a good place to point out that if she wants to rule seven Kingdoms, she doesn't need the North. When Dorne joined it became eight kingdoms, so the North can secede and she can still rule seven. Easy peasy. Tyrion or Varys should have pointed out this solution already.

This is basically the OP's answer.  She hasn't broken their guest rights.  

Also, I don't know that they were formally guests anyway.  I'd have to rewatch to see if they established in the show at what point a Lord can refuse guest rights (eg, Tyrion initially being refused guest right at Winterfell on his way back form the wall) and if at any point Danny offers them the formal guest right etc.  The 1st meeting was before they ate after all.    

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3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

WTF? Did dany asks any question about jon deserting..nope so your argument there is bull. And the problem isn't how she reveived him if she wants to recieve visitors like that it is fine. What isn't fine is taking them prisoner when they came to talk.  Also considering if the dead win then there will never be another summer she can't go to the east since if it summer never comes then everything in the world will die from starvation.

Also dany isn't queen yet and as far as jon knows she is just the daughter of the man who burned his grandfather alive and strangled his uncle. Who brought dothraki who are known for doing two things rape and ensalving people. Not really someone you want coming into your country.  Also jon asking for help is kinda important given that the dead won't just kill the northerners but wait for it...EVERYONE! Yeah she has a claim but jon wasn't arrogant but came in humble and didn't object to giving up his weapons even when he is surrounded by dothraki. Jon didn't do anything wrong and if you think he did and he desevred to be taken prisoner then you are fooloing yourself and letting your bias for dany blind you.

 

I liked dany in the previous seasons so I am not a dany hater but this was not something that is done in westero's or at least not supposed to be done.

i agree 

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8 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Bottom line, Dany is a hypocrital bitch who doesn't deserve to rule over a dung heap. 

Well having her spend her life fixing the clusterfuck of incompetence that is Meereen would be fitting, though somewhat unfair to the people of Meereen. So yeah, I agree.

---

She definitely teetered right on the edge, or just over, of breaking guest right. If not for the fact that Jon has to wait for his dragonglass anyway, it would have been broken for sure. He is in all practicalities a prisoner, invited there under false pretenses. Of course she will eventually "release" him (yes everyone is too polite to use those words but we all know what it means), and assuming he gets what he came for, any reasonable person would probably conclude "no harm no foul" on that one.

eta: if your argument is "well, Walder Frey is worse..." then you're really grasping at straws.

Edited by Mikkel

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According to Game of Thrones Wiki*:

Quote

Guest right is an ancient and sacred tradition in Westeros. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. Once invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.

The only guarantee is that the guest is not physically harmed by the host during the visit. It doesn't say anything about whether or not the guest is allowed to leave. Seriously! Unfortunately for Jon, that is a separate issue.

In Westeros, there is a ritual involved with invoking guest right by eating the host's bread and salt. Remember how anxious Cat was to do this at the Red Wedding, thinking that would protect them from Walder Frey's wrath? 

BTW, the ASoIaF guest right custom is based on historical fact. The ancient world was a hazardous place, and this was an important guarantee to help maintain a smooth running society. For more details:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Guest_right

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4 minutes ago, SummerSong said:

physically harmed

Actually, "harmed" and "physically harmed" are two different things. Taking someone prisoner certainly qualifies as harming them, particularly when their duties are on a very tight schedule (Jon is always fretting about time wasted). I'm not saying killing them and taking them prisoner are equal, obviously the former is a more egregious breaking of guest right, but they both qualify.

If you want to get all rules-lawyery, Dany feeds Jon and Davos while explicitly saying they're not prisoners, so Guest Right is definitely invoked then and there. Whether she will allow them to leave when they wish (presumably after mining the dragonglass) will show whether guest right was truly broken or just bent. If she had not agreed to let Jon mine dragonglass, it would've been broken already, since he then clearly wishes to leave, but is not allowed to (his cell may be the size of the castle, but he's still a prisoner in all but name).

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8 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Dany had every right to receive Jon in the manner that she did.  Jon broke his oaths to the Night's Watch.  The north is in open rebellion.  By the laws of the kingdom, Jon is a criminal and a rebel.  This arrogant bastard comes in and asks for help and offers nothing.  Dany has options.  She can take her Unsullied and her Dothraki and wait out the winter in the East.  Jon doesn't have that option.  He needs Dany more than she needs him.  Jon should have bent his knees begged for Dany's help.

Some arrogant bastard comes in and calling himself King in the North, which is not a legitimate title because the north is not an independent kingdom.  This same uncouth fool comes in and tells you the dead are coming.  It's surprising to me that Jon is not locked up in the nuthouse. 

So no, Dany did not break guest rights.  Jon broke laws by rebelling and allowing himself, just like Robb, to be titled "king".  Dany could have, if she had chosen to, punish Jon as a rebel.  Instead, she allowed him to mine Dragonglass.  That's very generous of her to do.

Do not want to disappoint you, my friend, so far in both books and show, Dany is the most arrogant and ignorant person. (well, Cersei also is a good candidate for that). Actually, she is not technically a Queen, Seven Kingdoms are not hers really. And she send for him and he came, but the first thing she does- takes his weapons and ship. If she thinks that he is here to assassinate-that's ridiculous. For what we know, she expected him to bend the knee in the first place. And they played a performace (taking his weapons, whole Messandei's introduction with correct emphasis on word "rightful") on purpose. That was a pure manipulation to show the King in the North his true place, so to speak.  Lame attempt, actually, and unsuccessful as we can see. Jon is an equal, even looked better in so many ways than Dany during this meeting. Tyrion just tried to save Jon's life by actually asking him to bend the knee.
As for the traditions, she didn't technically break the guest right, but she sure is not trustworthy since the first thing she does - takes your weapons and means of transport, even when she send for you originally. I doubt that they were afraid of Jon or anyone really. That was just a performance.

Edited by Gala

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7 minutes ago, Gala said:

Do not want to disappoint you, my friend, so far in both books and show, Dany is the most arrogant and ignorant person. (well, Cersei also is a good candidate for that). Actually, she is not technically a Queen, Seven Kingdoms are not hers really. And she send for him and he came, but the first thing she does- takes his weapons and ship. If she thinks that he is here to assassinate-that's ridiculous. For what we know, she expected him to bend the knee in the first place. And they played a performace (taking his weapons, whole Messandei's introduction with correct emphasis on word "rightful") on purpose. That was a pure manipulation to show the King in the North his true place, so to speak.  Lame attempt, actually, and unsuccessful as we can see. Jon is an equal, even looked better in so many ways than Dany during this meeting. Tyrion just tried to save Jon's life by actually asking him to bend the knee.
As for the traditions, she didn't technically break the guest right, but she sure is not trustworthy since the first thing she does - takes your weapons and means of transport, even when she send for you originally. I doubt that they were afraid of Jon or anyone really. That was just a performance.

Well in the books cersei is just plain insane. I think dany this season is just ridiculous with her arrogance and now that tyrions plan went horribly wrong she is gonna have to suck it up and ask jon for help. Also I don't know WTF she was thinking with this because if she takes someone prisoner when they disagree with her then guess what noone is gonna come see her and she isn't gonna have any allies. And I agree that jon looked better in this. Which is saying something because kit harrington seems to constantly have his shoulders hunched.

But even if dany didn't break the rules of hospitality right off the back she did something just as bad by inviting at the very least a lord of a major house (she did call him m'lord) to come to her and then took him prisoner. Wars have been started for less then that. And considering she feeds them and didn't say your a prisoner but makes him stay on the island afterwards she does break guest right.

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21 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Well in the books cersei is just plain insane. I think dany this season is just ridiculous with her arrogance and now that tyrions plan went horribly wrong she is gonna have to suck it up and ask jon for help. Also I don't know WTF she was thinking with this because if she takes someone prisoner when they disagree with her then guess what noone is gonna come see her and she isn't gonna have any allies. And I agree that jon looked better in this. Which is saying something because kit harrington seems to constantly have his shoulders hunched.

But even if dany didn't break the rules of hospitality right off the back she did something just as bad by inviting at the very least a lord of a major house (she did call him m'lord) to come to her and then took him prisoner. Wars have been started for less then that. And considering she feeds them and didn't say your a prisoner but makes him stay on the island afterwards she does break guest right.

Yes, that was my point exactly.

As for KIt Harrington - I liked his deep sigh, when she started her "you came to bend the knee" speech.

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