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legba11

Are they setting up a flaw in Dany's right to the IT?

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It seems they are really pushing her Targaryen lineage as Dany's right to sit the Iron Throne this season.  This makes sense as she is now in the place where that would matter for the first time.  It seems they are really hammering it home, though.  Not very subtle, but are they (the writers) setting her up for  problem when they reveal (potentially) that Jon is ahead of her from Aery's line of ascendency?

 

Sam is still at the citadel, and I can't think of anything else useful he can discover there other than a thumbdrive with the wedding video of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Though, maybe his story is basically done, and the meaningless Greyscale plot was just giving him something to do.

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I don't think they are setting up a flaw but rather a dilemma which is an essential theme in the story (every character faced a dilemma in GOT), she will face a dilemma on what she will do with him and her dream of getting the iron throne.

Sam's main mission is to find a way to kill the Night's King, the grayscale was a side story

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1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I don't think they are setting up a flaw but rather a dilemma which is an essential theme in the story (every character faced a dilemma in GOT), she will face a dilemma on what she will do with him and her dream of getting the iron throne.

Sam's main mission is to find a way to kill the Night's King, the grayscale was a side story

I agree on Sam. Somehow I dont think the Night King himself will die as easily as other White Walkers (ie shattering into a thousand pieces when hit with Valyrian steel).

While Sam will provide the critical information, Im fairly certain it will be Jon (with help from Bran and possibly Daenerys) who actually defeats the Night King in the final battle. Jon may or may not die after he does so.

There is a small chance it could be Arya who kills the NK, but I dont think thats whats planned for her. She will certainly kill many other White Walkers though and could be involved in creating a distraction/diversion so Jon can kill NK.

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21 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I agree on Sam. Somehow I dont think the Night King himself will die as easily as other White Walkers (ie shattering into a thousand pieces when hit with a Valyrian steel).

That's why I wrote the night's king and not WW, that boy is godlike and almost unkillable, no one was able to even give him a scratch for thousands of years and this is why he's in quarantine, and the actual story is about killing him for good

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Pretty much already set up. She's been very vocal about her right to the IT as the last targaryen. 

We'll see how it plays out when/if she is confronted by another Targaryen with a better claim. 

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22 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Pretty much already set up. She's been very vocal about her right to the IT as the last targaryen. 

We'll see how it plays out when/if she is confronted by another Targaryen with a better claim. 

No sure if Jon has a "better" claim. Danny is Daughter of the Mad King. Jon is his Grandson. So on terms of Generations, Danny has a better claim. I understand that Jon is a Man and Westeros society is more patriarcal. However, there were cases of women sitting in the IT. So If Jon's claims is "better" I don't think is far than absolute.

Added: If Rhaegar had died AFTER the Mad King, (which wasn't the case), than Jon's claim would be indisputable because Rhaegar would be the King.

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4 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

No sure if Jon has a "better" claim. Danny is Daughter of the Mad King. Jon is his Grandson. So on terms of Generations, Danny has a better claim. I understand that Jon is a Man and Westeros society is more patriarcal. However, there were cases of women sitting in the IT. So If Jon's claims is "better" I don't think is far than absolute.

By Kingslanding laws, Jon is the rigthfull heir. All of the 7 Kingdoms with the exception of Dorne follow Agnatic Primogeniture Succession (firstborn male heir).

Dorne follows Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture Succession (firstborn is the heir no matter the sex).

If Stannis were alive he would put Jon on the IT, because he's the rightfull heir. (I miss Stannis :crying:)

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45 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

By Kingslanding laws, Jon is the rigthfull heir. All of the 7 Kingdoms with the exception of Dorne follow Agnatic Primogeniture Succession (firstborn male heir).

Dorne follows Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture Succession (firstborn is the heir no matter the sex).

If Stannis were alive he would put Jon on the IT, because he's the rightfull heir. (I miss Stannis :crying:)

I am not convinced. If they were both sons of the Mad king, yes. But thats not the case. I thought there were Targaryan females that ruled the 7 kingdoms.

Basically what you are saying is (not counting Jaime) After Tommen died, the next in the succession line is Lance Lannister and not Mycella...(added: assuming the all were alive at the time)

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8 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I am not convinced. If they were both sons of the Mad king, yes. But thats not the case. I thought there were Targaryan females that ruled the 7 kingdoms.

Basically what you are saying is (not counting Jaime) After Tommen died, the next in the succession line is Lance Lannister and not Mycella...(added: assuming the all were alive at the time)

Taegaryan Females only would come to the throne if no adult male heir was available. As the oldest son of the heir to Aerys II this would give him a stronger claim. If Danny was older and had claimed the throne as an adult this would have given her a better chance. 

Wouldnt it also be ironic if the Night King died of Gray Scale and got shipped off to live with the Stone Men.

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George didn't make Aerys name Viserys his heir and then have Viserys crowned on Dragonstone uopn his death for shits and giggles. He wants the question of who the rightful Targaryen heir is to be murky. I am not sure why people keep ignoring this fact.

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4 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I am not convinced. If they were both sons of the Mad king, yes. But thats not the case. I thought there were Targaryan females that ruled the 7 kingdoms.

Basically what you are saying is (not counting Jaime) After Tommen died, the next in the succession line is Lance Lannister and not Mycella...(added: assuming the all were alive at the time)

After Tommem died the next in line should be a male Baratheon. Tommen was officially a Baratheon. Myrcella wouldnt even be considered for the position. That's why there is a Dorne masterplan to put Myrcella on the throne, following Dornish law.

It goes like this.

Aerys dies

Aerys 1st born -> Rhaegar inherits

Rhaegar dies -> Rhaegar's 1st born living male son inherits (Jon Snow)

Jon Snow dies -> doesnt have targaryen brothers. then look for Rhaegar's older male brother

If there are no more male brothers then look for Rhaegar's older uncle

and so on...

Only IF ALL MALE Targaryens are dead  -> pick closest relative female targaryen (Dany)

 

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22 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

No sure if Jon has a "better" claim. Danny is Daughter of the Mad King. Jon is his Grandson. So on terms of Generations, Danny has a better claim. I understand that Jon is a Man and Westeros society is more patriarcal. However, there were cases of women sitting in the IT. So If Jon's claims is "better" I don't think is far than absolute.

Added: If Rhaegar had died AFTER the Mad King, (which wasn't the case), than Jon's claim would be indisputable because Rhaegar would be the King.

But it doesn't work according to generations. It goes first son (Rhaegar), then ALL the first sons heirs - meaning Aegon and Jon would be next. Then if these two die without children, it would go to Viserys. If Viserys dies without children, then ONLY then would it go to Dany. As she was female and therefore would only be considered as heir once all the males were dead. As in the current one, she's only able to claim for the throne now that all the males heirs (as far as she knows) are dead.

16 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

After Tommem died the next in line should be a male Baratheon. Tommen was officially a Baratheon. Myrcella wouldnt even be considered for the position. That's why there is a Dorne masterplan to put Myrcella on the throne, following Dornish law.

It goes like this.

Aerys dies

Aerys 1st born -> Rhaegar inherits

Rhaegar dies -> Rhaegar's 1st born living male son inherits (Jon Snow)

Jon Snow dies -> doesnt have targaryen brothers. then look for Rhaegar's older male brother

If there are no more male brothers then look for Rhaegar's older uncle

and so on...

Only IF ALL MALE Targaryens are dead  -> pick closest relative female targaryen (Dany)

 

Explained better here^

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23 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

 

Added: If Rhaegar had died AFTER the Mad King, (which wasn't the case), than Jon's claim would be indisputable because Rhaegar would be the King.

but rhaegar did die before aerys

 

Quote

After his son Rhaegar was killed by Robert, a desperate Aerys sent away his pregnant wife (Daenerys would be born soon after) and his other son Viserys, but was relieved when his old friend Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral during the war, showed up to King’s Landing with his forces swearing allegiance to Aerys and the crown. Against the counsel of Varys (and on the advice of Maester Pycelle), Aerys opened the gates, only to watch as the Lannisters overran the city in Robert’s name.

http://nerdist.com/history-of-thrones-aerys-ii-the-mad-king-of-westeros/

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8 minutes ago, Jasemina said:

but rhaegar did die before aerys

Yes?

And Aerys II and little Aegon died in the same night. With Jon not begin born yet, and unknown, the crown (or at least the claim to it) passed to Viserys. But since the Targaryens lost their hold on the Throne during that war, the whole thing isn't as clear cut anymore.

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18 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

After Tommem died the next in line should be a male Baratheon. Tommen was officially a Baratheon. Myrcella wouldnt even be considered for the position. That's why there is a Dorne masterplan to put Myrcella on the throne, following Dornish law.

It goes like this.

Aerys dies

Aerys 1st born -> Rhaegar inherits

Rhaegar dies -> Rhaegar's 1st born living male son inherits (Jon Snow)

Jon Snow dies -> doesnt have targaryen brothers. then look for Rhaegar's older male brother

If there are no more male brothers then look for Rhaegar's older uncle

and so on...

Only IF ALL MALE Targaryens are dead  -> pick closest relative female targaryen (Dany)

 

Rhaegar could not have inherited because he was dead.

Aerys dies > Viserys (born living male son inherits)

Viserys dies > Danny inherits.

what you are saying is that a  grandson trumps (sorry for this word) a daughter. Which, you may be right.

 

There is another point, which is of course was not in the discussion is whether Jon Snow was a legitimate son or not. Have Rhaegar really got Married to Ellanna?  Remember he was already married to Elia Martell (but that is another discussion)

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Line of succession goes through Rhaegar no matter what. It doesn't matter if he dies before Aerys. If he dies before Aerys, then when Aerys kicks the bucket, Rhaegar's eldest son is next in line. Viserys would've only been next after Rhaegar if Rhaegar had had no children. But once Rhaegar had a son, the claims of his sons would trump those of Viserys. In other words...

Aerys --> Rhaegar --> Aegon --> Jon --> Viserys

The only part I'm hazy about is where Rhaegar's daughter would fit. I suspect that, being a girl, she'd get pushed to the back of the line of succession after all the potential male heirs, putting her right behind Viserys and before Daenerys.

 

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This is just another example of dumb deviations from the source material.  HBO doesn't care about plot logic. 

Look, if Jon can deny Dany's right to rule because it's based on her ancestor's claim, then Dany can just as easily deny Jon's claims.  Dany can deny Jon's identity.  Besides, polygamy is not legal, so even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, Jon is still a bastard.  If I were Dany, I would refuse to recognize Jon's claims.

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1 hour ago, Thor Odinson said:

Line of succession goes through Rhaegar no matter what. It doesn't matter if he dies before Aerys. If he dies before Aerys, then when Aerys kicks the bucket, Rhaegar's eldest son is next in line. Viserys would've only been next after Rhaegar if Rhaegar had had no children. But once Rhaegar had a son, the claims of his sons would trump those of Viserys. In other words...

Aerys --> Rhaegar --> Aegon --> Jon --> Viserys

The only part I'm hazy about is where Rhaegar's daughter would fit. I suspect that, being a girl, she'd get pushed to the back of the line of succession after all the potential male heirs, putting her right behind Viserys and before Daenerys.

 

You are wrong. 

The thing is that a bastard has no right on his father heritage.. So if Jon is a bastard:

Aerys-->Rhaegar-->Aegon-->Viserys-->Daenerys

If Rhaegar married Lyanna there is still doubt about Jon's claim, since many (including Dorne possibly) will claim that the second marriage is not valid. 

But even if we skip that part who can support Jon's claim to the throne? 

Who can say that he is Rhaegar's son?

And who can say that Rhaegar married Lyanna?

Bran Stark is a greenseer..he knows the truth. Jon has dark hair, dark eyes. His claim depends on the word of a cripple "skinchanger-freak".(my fav character is Bran)

On the other hand, nobody can deny that Daenerys is a Targaryen. 

 

If Jon was Aegon nobody would deny he is the son of Rhaegar.. He looks Valyrian and his is a trueborn son.. 

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