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Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Do you think the show is better or worse for not including Young Griff?

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On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:24 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just on the bolded part. This I think is my single biggest criticism of D&D (and that says quite something, considering that there are many other very strong reasons I dislike their work).

And by this I mean their underlying theme that no one has any principles or strongly held beliefs or causes whatsoever. Instead, every lord is simply out to promote his own survival and power by whatever means necessary. If that means the Umbers just deliver Rickon to the Boltons, then so be it. If that means that the Glovers and most of the other Northern lords just abandon the Starks when the going gets tough, then so be it.

If it means even the most devout lords just look the other way when Cersei blows up the holiest place of their entire religion, then oh well, all's hunky dory. And if it means the Tarlys just betray their liege lords because Cersei offered them a better deal, then that's fine too.

Basically, everyone is Bronn. His personality defines the average lord in Westeros. There is no place for the Bronze Yohn Royces, Greatjon Umbers, Robett Glovers, Blackfishes, Barristan Selmys, Vances, Pipers and the like from the books. They are either portrayed as naive fools who die off early, or as romantic idealists who die honorably (Selmy), or they just become turncloacks after putting up some cursory resistance (Tarly). There is no enduring place for them in this Show. Nope, in D&D's world, the Littlefingers, Boltons and Freys are the norm. And Bronn is the ultimate representative of humanity.

And frankly, it just sucks.

Sounds like history though. The land barons and aristocracy tended to jump ship when it suited them (admittedly we tend to hear more about the worst ones, but still).

 

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On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 1:03 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

I disagree. I think one of the strengths of his writing is the incredible scope and vision he has. Each character he has introduced, even late on in the story, has had a point and a part to play. It would be entirely different if he was making them up without a purpose. But characters like Aegon, Euron etc have more than improved an already brilliant piece of work.

In the early days I absolutely agree. But vision and scope is no good if you've opened it up far too wide and then get stuck piecing it all back together again. This is my second favourite book series, but I refuse to call it brilliant if he has painted himself into a corner and cannot deliver an ending because it's too bloated.

 

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34 minutes ago, Daske said:

I don't think so. Things change fast. It's nailed on that not everyone heading past the Wall is coming back. In fact I'm sure this is the end of Jorah - giving his life to save Jon because he knows she falling in love with him.

(It wouldn't surprise me if only Jon and The Hound make it back).

 

Gendry will make it back and probably Tormund as well since we know D & D have have a plan to ship Tormund + Brienne.

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I think the show made a huge mistake by not including Young Griff, regardless of whether he is real or fake Aegon. In the books, Young Griff has just landed in Westeros ready to take on Cersei, with a potential alliance with Dorne forming via Arienne. It's very reasonable to speculate that Young Griff will likely take the Iron Throne from Cersei and then sets up a final test for Dany. One of my favorite things about GRRM's writing is that he blurs the lines between black and white morality and explores the grey areas where it isn't so clear what is morally right. Many readers grow to love Jaime for this very reason. Most readers hate him at the start of the series but many grow to love him after seeing what he's been through. With Young Griff taking the Iron Throne, it would again set up a great opportunity for the dramatic when Dany has to take the throne from her (supposed) nephew. From the books so far, we learn that Young Griff is very talented, charismatic, and fit to be a great ruler. Varys supports him for this very reason. It would leave many readers split on who they would be rooting for, Young Griff or Dany, knowing that both have the potential to be great rulers. Right now in the show, its Dany or Cersei, which is so bland. Of course everyone will side with Dany. It would be very interesting to see who Jon Snow and the north would side with in a war between Dany and Young Griff. It wouldn't be a simple decision of "hmm... the mother of dragons or the woman who has killed thousands of innocent people and is indirectly responsible for the death of Ned and Robb Stark."

Anyways, the show has hinted about how they are circumventing Young Griff and JonCon by merging them with potential characters. It's clear they've merged JonCon with Jorah, but not so clear with who has taken on Young Griff. The show seems to be setting up Cersei + The Golden Company for Season 8, which would make sense since Young Griff and The Golden Company vs Dany may happen in the books. 

Option 1: They are merging Young Griff with Cersei, she'll get the Golden Company and have one last shot at defeating Dany. I also don't understand why the show hasn't brought in Euron's dragon horn, so maybe they are saving it for later on. I hope they include it, because that dragon horn will undoubtedly play a large role in the books to come and would actually give Dany's foes a reasonable weapon that could give her trouble (like a couple Scorpions are going to take down Drogon... really HBO?"

Option 2: They are merging Young Griff with Jon Snow. One could speculate that Young Griff and Dany will try to be allies in the books only to have things fall apart. Varys is clearly starting to have doubts about Dany's leadership in the show. If he were to find out that Jon Snow had a better claim to the throne (which HBO hinted at with Gilly stumbling upon Rhaegar's annulment), Varys could jump ship to Jon's side. The main problem with this is Jon Snow would never want to sit on the Iron Throne... so Dany vs Jon wouldn't make all too much sense.

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On 14.8.2017 at 10:39 PM, Daske said:

Sounds like history though. The land barons and aristocracy tended to jump ship when it suited them (admittedly we tend to hear more about the worst ones, but still).

LOL, no. Not for a woman with no claim who had blown up St. Peter and murdered the Pope and the entire College of Cardinals in the process.

There is no excuse and no means to rationalize or justify this plot development.

Even more so in light of the fact that the Lannisters are broke in the show. If they had still the fortune they have in the books they could at least tried to bribe people to look the other way or buy their loyalty but Cersei can't do that in the show.

Cersei basically has none of the elements of power Varys is speaking about in his riddle - she has no blood claim (meaning nobody should see her as queen), she has no money (which means she can't buy anyone), and she doesn't have the support of the majority religion (because she killed its leadership and destroyed the Great Sept).

She essentially has nothing to stay in power even by the rules established by the show. Never mind the setting in the books.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. Not for a woman with no claim who had blown up St. Peter and murdered the Pope and the entire College of Cardinals in the process.

There is no excuse and no means to rationalize or justify this plot development.

Even more so in light of the fact that the Lannisters are broke in the show. If they had still the fortune they have in the books they could at least tried to bribe people to look the other way or buy their loyalty but Cersei can't do that in the show.

Cersei basically has none of the elements of power Varys is speaking about in his riddle - she has no blood claim (meaning nobody should see her as queen), she has no money (which means she can't buy anyone), and she doesn't have the support of the majority religion (because she killed its leadership and destroyed the Great Sept).

She essentially has nothing to stay in power even by the rules established by the show. Never mind the setting in the books.

True, I agree. And she also blew up their liege lord in the process. But I guess in the show, giving Tarly an extra dose of xenophobia was enough to justify his decisions somehow, no matter how contradictory since he served Dany's father. All this while completely ignoring his previously established bigotry and sexism when it comes to Cersei. Because the plot demanded it :rolleyes:

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In the books you are beaten over the head with the history of the Rebellion in a way you can't be in a show where you don't get the internal monologue of a characters. The Lannister's letting Gregor Clegane loose on the Targaryen children is a big sticking point. It is one of the biggest issues Ned has with Robert and it's likely the sore spot that made him keep Jon a secret and protect Dany when Robert wants her assassinated. 

In the show, the biggest mention of that is in the Oberyn vs Gregor scene. Aside from that, there is very little mention of that. So there isn't the omg resonance of finding out that one of the children we kept hearing so much about might have survived. Largely because if Vary's was scheming, it is plausible he lived. In the show it just comes as even more of fakeout than it already is in the books.

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:10 PM, Ser Gareth said:

You do realise that Cersei will be Queen in the books too right?  And as her prophecy is one more beautiful will cast her down, which is almost certainly Dany, that means it won't be Aegon that dislodges her.

Cersei has already been Queen, to Robert... that fulfills that one "me thinks" she may be Queen again, or Queen Regent though.  I reckon it will be Arianne, who is a younger version and as ambitious and willing to spread her legs for her "cause" as Cersei (nor that that is in the prophecy but still... parallels).  Dany is too obvious in my humble opinion and she only spreads her legs for duty or pleasure as opposed to "gain."  My money is on Arianne.

As for Aegon, I was glad he wasn't in the show because I couldn't stand him in the books!  The main reason is that he has few lines, few plots even... too late in... and literally no characterisation (but okay I don't mind Euron or other new comers with a promise to do something big) but to me he is just so "meawouw..."  To be honest, I would have left him out of the books as well lol but hey, we all love and hate characters and he is amongst my "most hated" not because he is evil (I love to have characters to hate like LF and Varys) but because he is meawouw... boring....

I think it will do something big in the books that will either screw and/or benefit other characters.  George is a master of characterisation (say Arya, Tyrion, LIttlefinger...) this guy is just the lamest of the lame from a literary point of view.  If he was meant to do something meaningful with him, we would have a clue, like with Euron, say, who is another relative late comer.  To me this guy is the dullest in the entire series and I am sorry but although I appreciate so into the show Cercei should be dead by now, I appreciate that they love both the character and the actress lol.

Now, of course they could have casted a great actor in the role of Aegon.  Even a new comer from theatre school, like so many in the show, and he could had given us a phenomenal performance, that would had actually covered up for the fact that George, so far, has not developed this guy in any meaningful way.  Okay, a lot of you love him in the books, so sure, each to their own, George appealed to you with him in a way he does not to me, for we are all different lol

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21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Cersei has already been Queen, to Robert... that fulfills that one "me thinks" she may be Queen again, or Queen Regent though.  I reckon it will be Arianne, who is a younger version and as ambitious and willing to spread her legs for her "cause" as Cersei (nor that that is in the prophecy but still... parallels).  Dany is too obvious in my humble opinion and she only spreads her legs for duty or pleasure as opposed to "gain."  My money is on Arianne.

As for Aegon, I was glad he wasn't in the show because I couldn't stand him in the books!  The main reason is that he has few lines, few plots even... too late in... and literally no characterisation (but okay I don't mind Euron or other new comers with a promise to do something big) but to me he is just so "meawouw..."  To be honest, I would have left him out of the books as well lol but hey, we all love and hate characters and he is amongst my "most hated" not because he is evil (I love to have characters to hate like LF and Varys) but because he is meawouw... boring....

I think it will do something big in the books that will either screw and/or benefit other characters.  George is a master of characterisation (say Arya, Tyrion, LIttlefinger...) this guy is just the lamest of the lame from a literary point of view.  If he was meant to do something meaningful with him, we would have a clue, like with Euron, say, who is another relative late comer.  To me this guy is the dullest in the entire series and I am sorry but although I appreciate so into the show Cercei should be dead by now, I appreciate that they love both the character and the actress lol.

Now, of course they could have casted a great actor in the role of Aegon.  Even a new comer from theatre school, like so many in the show, and he could had given us a phenomenal performance, that would had actually covered up for the fact that George, so far, has not developed this guy in any meaningful way.  Okay, a lot of you love him in the books, so sure, each to their own, George appealed to you with him in a way he does not to me, for we are all different lol

GRRM may have changed it to Arianne to change it from the shows.  But Arianne is a nothing character to the story and her POV wasn't even going to be told.  So I can't see her being that important to be part of a significant prophecy.  But then Cersei's POV was never meant to be told either.....

I think Cersei would have survived quite deep into the books.  It's definitely Jaime that would have killed her IMO.

Agree about Aegon.  But then I think a whole slew of POV characters should've been cut.  I cannot stand the Iron Born.  They are so socially backwards compared to the rest of Westeros it simply isn't realistic.  And Dorne for me is meh.  POV's from those regions weren't needed IMHO.

Finally, I cannot stand Euron in the books.  I think him and Ramsey serve little to no purpose other than being cartoonish villains.

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5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

GRRM may have changed it to Arianne to change it from the shows.  But Arianne is a nothing character to the story and her POV wasn't even going to be told.  So I can't see her being that important to be part of a significant prophecy.  But then Cersei's POV was never meant to be told either.....

I think Cersei would have survived quite deep into the books.  It's definitely Jaime that would have killed her IMO.

Agree about Aegon.  But then I think a whole slew of POV characters should've been cut.  I cannot stand the Iron Born.  They are so socially backwards compared to the rest of Westeros it simply isn't realistic.  And Dorne for me is meh.  POV's from those regions weren't needed IMHO.

Finally, I cannot stand Euron in the books.  I think him and Ramsey serve little to no purpose other than being cartoonish villains.

I see what you mean, but I think prophecies are not always about huge things or literally accurate etc, so my prediction here is that she is going to be Queen for like half an hour lol because I can't see neither her or Aegon in the IT long term.  

As for originally intended POVs, well I guess as a story progresses in an author's head, unless meticulously planned from the onset with all steps covered these additions do happen.  George has said that he has a good idea of how the story overall pans out but not all the details so I guess that explains it.  Still, I agree Arianne is far from being a super major character.  Cersei for instance is much, much more important.

With the Iron Born I agree that their modus operandi appears a bit brutal even for Westeros but I don't necessarily dislike all the characters.  Theon for instance, IMHO is complex enough with his moral dilemmas and identity crisis but he wasn't always enjoyable to read, especially his time with Ramsay.  Not just for the sheer brutality but the repetitiveness I guess...  Now, Victarion I would have certainly not even had bothered to create.  I do indeed find him very boring.  Euron, I couldn't agree more he is a cartoon villain just like Ramsay and I have questioned the need for them too.  With Ramsay I am not so sure but with Euron I think his dabbling in dark magic is going to be important and he will add something big to the final plot.  I personally feel that he may well succeed in becoming some sort of dark deity that may become as much of a threat as the Others.  I wouldn't even be surprised if further along some of his actions/ambitious become if not justified a little more rationalised, or here is hoping lol.  I guess Victarion is there to show us how much Euron can fuck up with his family but a whole character wasn't necessary, I don't think to show us that.

As for Dorne, okay, Quentyn I find the most boring to be honest.  Yes, there is the conflict about being very average and wanting parental approval but we already have characters like Sam for that, even Tyrion to an extent, and they are IMO a lot more interesting.  Also the creation of this character required the creation of mates of his which so far feel like fillers.  I have read the books more than once and I still struggle to remember their names lol.  Oberyn played a role and illustrated that "revenge is overrated."  Something I hope little Tyrion will remember soon lol  The different customs in the Kingdoms were brought to the fore a bit here but their society which is morally more permissive re sex etc.  I didn't mind it.  Sarella may just play a role or one of the Sand Snakes.  Ellaria can be fun but yes, the story could have been told without them I guess.

Again, as for readers who really like some of the characters I don't or I find boring as I said each to their own lol. There is no right and wrong, we all individually are attracted to different types of heroes, villains and in-betweens.

Oh, just a general afterthought (not necessarily super connected with your post), to me a good character has to be memorable.  Okay, even if memorable I prefer for both heros and anti-heroes to be complex and fleshed out but I tend to find that makes them memorable.  Even some extraordinarily minor ones can be really easy to remember for the quirks and what not, say from Ser Illyn Payne to Myranda Royce, Lady Olenna is more major but still that kind of thing... someone that makes some sort of an impact with their personality or total lack thereof in what we know (hence mentioned Illyn Payne).  Typical examples of quarky minor characters to me would be Podrick and Bronn too.  They are side-kicks to Tyrion but they are certainly memorable.  Maester Aemon in my opinion was a superb one too.  Some of them can just be background, as if one was describing a room, or a village or something like maybe Alayaya.  Okay, she is not really even a character, she is to me "decoration" to bring to life the sort of brothel Tyrion frequents, what is available for the rich in KL etc, or Gendry's boss and the smithy.  Those touches to me are nice and not utterly unnecessary (even in the show we need visual images of the different environments).  I guess, as a reader and show watcher my issue with characters is that (unless they add something significant to the story or makes us visualise the scene) and seem to lack the memorable element, they do not engage me.  Then again, as I said, with a great actor maybe we would have all taken to Aegon, as some of you guys have.  I guess I just lack the imagination to make him interesting to me in particular.

To me Aegon, as a person is not at all memorable in himself as a character.  Okay, let's play a game:  10 things you remember him for:  (I'll go first)

1.   He has been told and believes that he is the true heir to the IT

2.  He dislikes being treated as a child (as any young man/woman his age would)

3.  He is a bad looser at table games.

4.  He is open to advice good and bad and medium provided it sounds as if it came from him (again nothing out of the ordinary there).

5.  He wants to lead his own forces against better advice (again showing his young age and nothing wrong with that).

I think I have already run out of ideas...The guy hasn't proven to be bad nor good nor medium.  He is a question mark but not one I find intriguing...  So far to me he has not shown anything memorable as a character.   And to me say Old Nan is a memorable character...  To me:  he is not good nor bad nor medium; a plot device at most...  Trouble is when I cannot root for someone's survival or even death lol to me they are very flat!

Oh, by the way, when I said "you" in my previous post, I didn't mean you yourself but "you"as other posters or people in general; meaning "one" really ;)

 

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On 8/5/2017 at 3:27 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

Young Griff's omission from the show robbed of a visual of one of the greatest scenes in the books, in my opinion: the epilogue of aDwD where Varys kills Kevin Lannister and lays down his speech revealing his plan for Aegon to rule.

Without Aegon in the show, Varys has been snipped figuratively as much as he has been literally.

assuming Varys wants what we are told (by him mainly) that he wants...

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On 8/6/2017 at 5:32 AM, Dragon in the North said:

It's difficult to say without knowing how vital a role Aegon will play in the remaining books, but as of right now, I believe the show is better for not including him. I just can't see Aegon playing that big of a part and it seems Martin only set him up to be an obstacle for Danerys to overcome. Plus, I never found him to be that interesting of a character to begin with.

My thoughts precisely!  In fact him and Quentyn to me are the most tedious in the books lol

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:15 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The biggest mistake GRRM made with the introduction is that we got so much detail on him.  It would have been far more shocking to have him literally turn up in Westeros as hearsay via existing Westeros POV's and it would have cut down on a few dull chapters in ADWD.

Sooo much detail, my Lord?  Where is it???  He is the less fleshed out character in the series for sure!  I even know more about the prossies Arya sold cockles to lol!

Sorry, we talked earlier and the last thing I want to do is to antagonise you but you agreed the kid was bland and boring lol (mayhaps you changed your mind along the way and nothing wrong with that) but here you give the impression that Young Griff was massively fleshed out...  I would love to hear your views ;)

Ah, or do you mean, not so much detail about him "himself" but how Illyrio and Varys got Tyrion in his way etc?  Just wondering...

 

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7 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

My thoughts precisely!  In fact him and Quentyn to me are the most tedious in the books lol

And there I was, thinking Quentyn was a slow burner.

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On 20.8.2017 at 6:18 PM, Eaglesghs said:

Option 1: They are merging Young Griff with Cersei, she'll get the Golden Company and have one last shot at defeating Dany.

The betrayal of the Tarlys might be another hint, since there are "friends in the Reach" in the books.... In my opinion, this decitions cause many problems. Faegon is a massive gamechanger (maybe the biggest and most exciting one since storm of swords), fulfilling many purposes for the story:

  1. Beeing a massive threat to the Lannister/Tyrell-Regime, no one saw coming.
  2. Bringing the stormlands back in the game.
  3. Beeing an ally to Dorne, giving Arianne something to do.
  4. Beeing an explanation, why Varys (now showing his masterplan) and the targ-loyalists didnt care about Dany and Viserys at all.
  5. Maybe beeing the reason Dany finally sets sails, searching for a third dragonhead or beeing afraid of a potential rival with better claims.

What we got in the show without Faegon:

  1. Dany took the part as new enemy against Cersei, but they ridiculously failed in explaining why Dany with all her (dragon)power didn´t win immediately. Faegon would have had less resources and a much more plausible struggle against the queen.
  2. The what?
  3. No more word for show-Dorne. Just that Arianne and her tea plates would have been a perfect HBO-character.
  4. Varys looks quite stupid in the show. He did all his scheming, but had no clue who should sit the IT. Until he heard from Danys greatness. Really?
  5. I don´t even want to know in what state the city is right now.. King Dario and no dragons to scare the slavers... Why did show-Dany finally leave after all her time in Meereen? Because she didn´t care for her people any more? Whereas Faegon might be the solution for the Meereenese knot in the books, they just forgot about it in the show.

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IMO it would have been a huge mistake to add YG. There is only a certain amount of screen time available to tell the story and it's already really condensed. Adding in this mystery heir would've taken screen time away from other more critical items. Based on the fact that he is not in the show, I assume he is fAegon anyway so why waste all that time on someone who in the end is a false figure?

Now, if they had done that and skipped all the Dorne story lines, hell yes please do!

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On 5/12/2018 at 7:38 AM, dbunting said:

IMO it would have been a huge mistake to add YG. There is only a certain amount of screen time available to tell the story and it's already really condensed. Adding in this mystery heir would've taken screen time away from other more critical items. Based on the fact that he is not in the show, I assume he is fAegon anyway so why waste all that time on someone who in the end is a false figure?

Now, if they had done that and skipped all the Dorne story lines, hell yes please do!

There was time to add a Grey Worm/ Missandei romance...

I think it is a huge mistake to assume fAegon "pointless" or a "waste of time", just because he is fake. Just as Euron, he is a massive gamechanger late in the game. An element of surprise. Instead, the story became quite simple in S7.

I think season 6 would have been the perfekt time to introduce him. Even if they would have killed him off quickly, it would have explained the Varys/Dany story so much better...

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1 hour ago, Lemorecake said:

There was time to add a Grey Worm/ Missandei romance...

I think it is a huge mistake to assume fAegon "pointless" or a "waste of time", just because he is fake. Just as Euron, he is a massive gamechanger late in the game. An element of surprise. Instead, the story became quite simple in S7.

I think season 6 would have been the perfekt time to introduce him. Even if they would have killed him off quickly, it would have explained the Varys/Dany story so much better...

This was what 10 minutes of screen time over several episodes? Do you really think that by scrapping that romance you could establish who young Griff isin S6, since he and his family have not factored in at all, and get him and his whole crew time to establish themselves in 10 minutes, and if you use more than 10 minutes where do you take it from? 

Why spend the time to tell us who he is and his back story only to kill him off quickly, seems like more of a waste of time than a eunuch love scene but that's just my opinion.

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