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The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III


kuenjato

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9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

We, on the other hand, can look back at all the times his heart was moved and notice how it worked out - the 'punish the Shrial Knights' is the first super concrete example. And that doesn't make sense for the darkness to move him (which, IMO, doesn't exist) - but it does make sense if he's being manipulated and indoctrinated by Ajokli that whole time. 

I think the "punish the knights" was Kellhus attempting to take out the skin-spy until he could get more information. Doesn't Ajokli first "approach" during the visions on the Circumfix? That's the first concrete moment that someone else is speaking to Kellhus. 

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38 minutes ago, Triskan said:

There's a theory that Shae was not overthrown based largely on a comment Bakker made about everyone missing a certain boat.  It's certainly not confirmed, but there seems to be a lot of believers.  I'm leaning against at the moment.  Part of the theory is that the Mutilated trade turns talking the same way Shae's wretches did.  

I thought that was confirmed? Too much info floating around out there right now I think.

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2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I thought he said something about Shae still being around. On the phone so hard to lick up.

The Freudo-Bakkerian slip-up typo here is precious ;)

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3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I thought he said something about Shae still being around. On the phone so hard to lick up.

IIRC, someone asked about the fate of the other Mangaecca schoolmen as well as mentioning "now that we know the fate of Shae".

Bakker responded but saying "do we know the fate of Shae?".

I'd say that together with the comments about the Dunyain being susceptible to possession and something readers missed wrt the Consult, makes the DunShae possibility more likely than not.

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Modelling the third series on our consumer culture’s infantile usage of fantasy tropes (which is what Harry Potter is) would be fantastic.

Crusades (actual history inspired by myth) — Tolkien (original fiction inspired by mythical tropes) — Potter (derivative fiction). And it could doubly subvert Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. Bakker would love this idea the moment he saw it. Thank you, @Kalbear.

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15 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Wouldn't Kellhus have noticed something different about their facial expressions/muscles whatever it is that the Dunyain read?

That is the beauty of the Malowebi point-of-view. We have no idea what’s going on.

I like this theory.

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2 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

That is the beauty of the Malowebi point-of-view. We have no idea what’s going on.

I like this theory.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But otherwise agree the theory holds up. No idea if Kellhus knew but played along or if it was even Kellhus vs Ajokli calling the shots at that point. 

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3 hours ago, Hello World said:

Wouldn't Kellhus have noticed something different about their facial expressions/muscles whatever it is that the Dunyain read?

I rather think of Shae as a version of compulsion. I don't think he takes over all the peripheral muscle stuff.

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If Esme was Kellhus's darkness, I kinda like Shae is the mutilated's darkness.

On the other hand it's probably not the case - but the books are a journey through a speculative world. Granted one where happy speculations are more likely to be wrong, but it's billed as grim dark, there's no bait and switch there.

Shae is bae

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15 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I think the "punish the knights" was Kellhus attempting to take out the skin-spy until he could get more information. Doesn't Ajokli first "approach" during the visions on the Circumfix? That's the first concrete moment that someone else is speaking to Kellhus. 

Well, maybe. The circumfix is definitely the first time Kellhus is aware (though he associated it with God, which seems wrong now). But on the punish the Shrial knights part - he was surprised about that and about its efficacy. He didn't know Sarcellus was a skinspy at that moment, IIRC. He hadn't seen him yet. He was actually confused why he said it, and it freaked him out a little bit. 

Another way to say it is this: if you believe that Bakker plotted this stuff out, one interesting thing to do is to go back and look at every single instance of Kellhus reacting in a non-Dunyain fashion and attribute it to Ajokli. From his pity of Cnaiur and saving Cnaiur (doesn't that seem to be interesting now?) to his reaction to Serwe's death to his sparing of Akka to his rescuing Esme - I'm sure there are so many more.

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Forgive me if the following text is a bit confused, I'm still processing my thoughts about the varius narratives of the series...

It will certainly be interesting to go back and re-interprete previous text in PoN. One of the practical problems I have with doing this is that I feel that there are two competing narratives concerning Kellhus in the series, both of which come to a climax in Golgotterath:

(a) one narrative concerning how the fallability of all of us (the darkness of the stuff that is closest to us such as Esmi/Kolmo) might be the downfall of even the mightiest (such as super-Kellhus), and

(b) how a calculating infallible schemer, who is capable of domination the materialistic present (Kellhus), might be taken over by an Outside entity (Ajokli).

The practical problem is that in order for the first narative to be effective, the target individual (Kellhus) needs to actually be empowered / in control (if he's not in control, there is no darkness that he is acting upon). But in order for the second narrative to be successful, the target individual (Kellhus) needs to be not in control /empowered.

If we interpret Kellhus relation to Cnaiur, are we to do that from the Darkness perspective (Dunyain fallability) and/or from the Outside/Ajokli perspective? These two parallell/competing narratives makes it hard for me to interpret the text.

Having both of these narratives culminating at the same time during the climax of TUC also contributes (in my mind) to making that part of the book a bit constructed and hard to interpret.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself understood here (English is not my native language) and would thus be grateful for any feedback.

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5 minutes ago, Galbrod said:

Having both of these narratives culminating at the same time during the climax of TUC also contributes (in my mind) to making that part of the book a bit constructed and hard to interpret.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself understood here (English is not my native language) and would thus be grateful for any feedback.

No, this makes perfect sense; it doesn't make it particularly compelling if Kellhus is weak, but it doesn't make it make sense as an actual thing that happens subtly and without detection if Kellhus is strong. Neither is satisfying as a narrative arc. 

And TUC narratively indicating that this was Kellhus' plan while Bakker saying that Kellhus was unaware undercuts this even more. 

It's more likely, IMO, that this was not planned and that the Darkness that Kellhus experiences in PoN was actual vestigal humanity, not Ajokli to any extent (save perhaps the Circumfix), and it was meant to show that even Kellhus has some humanity left. Ajokli only really came to the fore after the Daimotic incidents and gained power as he got to Golgotterath. This is more close to the literal discussion as well as fitting in with Bakker's lack of actual depth and desire for thematic ambiguity. 

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From the AMA:

Quote

5. If your response to Tasty_Y is meant to be read as Kellhus genuinely wanting to save the World, does that mean that he didn't count on getting possessed? Also, when did Ajokli start inhabiting him/speaking to him? Was it on the Circumfix?

And Bakker's answer,

Quote

5) That which comes after determines what comes before.

This is presumably in answer to the latest bit about Ajokli starting to inhibit Kellhus.

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If we look structurally at the series, after the circumfix there are only two chapters in the next five books that have kellhus Perspectives.

Kyudea, which is unavoidable

and

Head on a Pole Behind You

Bakker has spoken at length about himself being like a stripper and revealing his vajay (thong goes zinging off!) with regards to the end of the series.

So the reveal, from the author's perspective, has always been about hiding Ajokli so that he can have that really cool g string moment of "suprise!"

which is just bad writing (or as kal calls it, shallow), I get he was excited to host a surprise party, but you know, surprise parties are fun for all the socialization in the actual party, not for the moment when you yell "SURPRISE!" That moment is a cool and fun moment--but it is just a moment--and it is a bit beside the point.  that is to say, the surprise is _never_ the point, the point is the people at the party.

I don't think Bakker gets this, he's the guy going around after saying, "were you surprised? it was so great when we yelled it. Your face. can I yell it again? SURPRISE! so great! you are the birthday boy right?, oh whoops, sorry, you just looked like him from behind, that's him over there." walks toward other person, "were you surprised? it was so great when we yelled..." 

 

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